fishmike wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:this idea that Bargnani is some sort of small forward or Copeland redux is sort of bizarre to me.

here he is killing us a few years back.

-- note that he easily shoots over wilson chandler (6'8) and gallinari (6'10) in the post.
-- he's also a really good passer out of the post. has some nice no-looks, is patient with the ball, and is able to find the open man regularly, especially when a double team is sent.
-- how many times does he set up on the perimeter in that clip? a few high PnR's, but this guy isn't a perimeter jump shooter who shies from contact.

i would imagine the Knicks will try to play him and Melo together a lot -- that will create a LOT of mismatches.

disregard Bargnani last year -- he was on a bad team, he was hurt, and the fans had openly turned on him and would boo him when he'd come into games. the guy was checked out (not the first NBA player to quit on the raptors - see vince carter).

i know the consensus is the Knicks gave up a lot but this guy's a talented scorer, a legitimate 7 footer with offensive skills, and will open up a lot of mismatches for Carmelo.

also, let's keep in mind that we can bank on STAT playing about 15 games next year. the guy gets banged up every 5 minutes. in the layup line, walking to the locker room, he is a walking injury. we needed to add another post scorer and we got a good one for Novak, Camby, and a pick that, because of its "swap" with Denver was going to be in the 20s anyway.

good trade for the Knicks

I can agree with everything, except don't underestimate the importance of picks in the 20's. Especially in a very good draft. I would have loved to been able to pick up Wolters this year.
And next year someone will fall and it might bite us depending on how Bargs plays.

It just really sucks to have next to no draft picks the next few years, especially since we can't really buy any it seems.

Yeah.
Bigsmooth, would you have traded Shumpert for Bargs? He was picked close to 20.

no but I would trade Balkman for him. Wasnt he picked in the 20s also?

It is not on equal footing regarding teams picking players. We have way more money than most teams and the league doesn't say how much you can spend on scouts, analytics, background research, etc. Really, we have no reason to fail during a draft. Our selection project should realistically be a large investment on our part, especially since it essentially is a large investment regarding 1st round pick money.

I do like the Bargs trade though. I think he will come through for us and we were between a rock and a hard place as far as finding talent, considering the CBA, our situation, etc.

EMS... cmon man. No reason to fail? Every year the smartest minds in the game are wrong. Every year the most experienced scouts get it wrong. Every year advanced scouting misses players... in every sport.

There is no draft science. Stephen Curry was too skinny to ever be a star... probably just pretty good. We could do this all day. Its good to have picks. The teams that draft the best players over a 20 year period all probably have one thing in common: They all use the draft, so I will give you that.

fish, I am not saying I am some draft expert, but I was one of the few that was high on steph curry... the problem I see is that everyone thinks you need to draft a star with a lottery pick.. If you get a guy that is a borderline allstar, you have done well.. keep adding value picks and players like that and soon you will have a good team, or assets to bargain with...

fishmike wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:I love the wishful thinking but I don't think we are a much better team now then the day before we got Bargnani. He doesn't even move us from being a #5 seed. Lateral move at best since he is still one of the worst rebounders and defenders in the game. If you are trading first round picks you better be making moves to help get a championship in your grasp. This doesn't qualify

Knicks were the number 2 seed. The games haven't been played. Teams have improved but Bargs could be a huge addition. The Knicks traded a pick that is relevant three years from now that the Nuggets have the right to switch with them. 9/10 times that pick is a role player if you scout well.

We were the #2 seed in a conference were the Bulls missed Rose for a year, the Pacers missed Granger for a year and the Nets weren't nearly as stacked as they are now for a 2 year run. Picks are assets. Everyone here seems to like Shumpert and Hardaway Jr. Both guys picked in the later half of the 1st round. Even the 2nd rounders sting. We could draft and stash a Foreign player like the Spurs did with Ginobli. I just don't think that adding Bargnani really makes that much of a difference for us and our outlook next year. To lose a commodity like a first rounder for a guy who won't bring us any closer to 'chip just doesn't make sense to me. That pick could have been packaged with Stat's expiring to make him more attractive to another team.

I am not a hater and I won't root for him to fail but I just think whatever he gives us on offense he will take away with atrocious rebounding and poor defense. I believe it's a lateral move at best. Also I think if the guys here talking up Bargnani's game were asked their opinion of him as a player 2 weeks before we traded for him, it wouldn't be as positive as it is today.

the picks matter, but they do not carry the weight your suggesting, and can be replaced. For every Ginobili folks cry about missing out on there are 30 Milos Vujanics and Majec Lampe's who never even play in the league for every Ginibili. So be realistic. The can yield a useful player but if you actually crunch the #s you will see the vast majority of #2 never make the league, much less become rotation players.

TFK.. what was the expectation in regards to talent your going to net with Novak, Camby and low/late future second rounders? The Knicks situation is what it is, and we did something in the Bargs trade we NEVER do, which is buy low. Yea Bargs is damaged goods, didnt live up to a #1 (bad draft and all) and isnt and likely will never be an NBA star, but he can be avery good play, clearly has some bigtime skills and the Knicks got him when his value is lowest. Is it so impossible this guy comes in, takes over the 2nd scorer's role and the Knicks are better? This move will improve our defense and rebounding because it pushed Melo back to the 3 instead of us starting him at the 4 which looks cute in the regular season vs the NBAs lower tier but has zero chance of standing up in the playoffs.

I know the 2nd rounders aren't a huge deal, but they are lost assets and along with the first rounder. We gave up way too much for guy that arguably (its a very legit argument) doesn't make us any better than last year or get us any closer to a title.

azamatbagatov wrote:

fishmike wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:I love the wishful thinking but I don't think we are a much better team now then the day before we got Bargnani. He doesn't even move us from being a #5 seed. Lateral move at best since he is still one of the worst rebounders and defenders in the game. If you are trading first round picks you better be making moves to help get a championship in your grasp. This doesn't qualify

Knicks were the number 2 seed. The games haven't been played. Teams have improved but Bargs could be a huge addition. The Knicks traded a pick that is relevant three years from now that the Nuggets have the right to switch with them. 9/10 times that pick is a role player if you scout well.

We were the #2 seed in a conference were the Bulls missed Rose for a year, the Pacers missed Granger for a year and the Nets weren't nearly as stacked as they are now for a 2 year run. Picks are assets. Everyone here seems to like Shumpert and Hardaway Jr. Both guys picked in the later half of the 1st round. Even the 2nd rounders sting. We could draft and stash a Foreign player like the Spurs did with Ginobli. I just don't think that adding Bargnani really makes that much of a difference for us and our outlook next year. To lose a commodity like a first rounder for a guy who won't bring us any closer to 'chip just doesn't make sense to me. That pick could have been packaged with Stat's expiring to make him more attractive to another team.

I am not a hater and I won't root for him to fail but I just think whatever he gives us on offense he will take away with atrocious rebounding and poor defense. I believe it's a lateral move at best. Also I think if the guys here talking up Bargnani's game were asked their opinion of him as a player 2 weeks before we traded for him, it wouldn't be as positive as it is today.

the picks matter, but they do not carry the weight your suggesting, and can be replaced. For every Ginobili folks cry about missing out on there are 30 Milos Vujanics and Majec Lampe's who never even play in the league for every Ginibili. So be realistic. The can yield a useful player but if you actually crunch the #s you will see the vast majority of #2 never make the league, much less become rotation players.

TFK.. what was the expectation in regards to talent your going to net with Novak, Camby and low/late future second rounders? The Knicks situation is what it is, and we did something in the Bargs trade we NEVER do, which is buy low. Yea Bargs is damaged goods, didnt live up to a #1 (bad draft and all) and isnt and likely will never be an NBA star, but he can be avery good play, clearly has some bigtime skills and the Knicks got him when his value is lowest. Is it so impossible this guy comes in, takes over the 2nd scorer's role and the Knicks are better? This move will improve our defense and rebounding because it pushed Melo back to the 3 instead of us starting him at the 4 which looks cute in the regular season vs the NBAs lower tier but has zero chance of standing up in the playoffs.

I know the 2nd rounders aren't a huge deal, but they are lost assets and along with the first rounder. We gave up way too much for guy that arguably (its a very legit argument) doesn't make us any better than last year or get us any closer to a title.

Honestly, offer a 1st round pick and ask back for a future 2nd round pick, take it or leave it, at best add in OKC's pick as well, but still need a 2nd rounder back,FINAL OFFER...
Toronto would likely still do it

I personally would not have done the trade unless I somehow can add Lowry or Amir Johnson in the deal without giving up Iman, that is the only way I can justify giving those picks up and taking on the contract of an amnesty target for the past 2 seasons

Would have been nice if Kidd allowed us to use him as an ASSET, a trade asset for salaries reasons before retiring, that was the least he could have done since we wasted our mini MLE for him

azamatbagatov wrote:I am willing to bet the ranch that all of you guys talking up Bargnani's game would need feel the same way about it if asked 3 weeks ago while he was still a Raptor. This is a guy that has been universally panned around the league as a one dimension scorer who has had problems scoring. Don't even start on his defense and rebounding. i can't even imagine the things that would be send about him if he were traded to the Nyets.

He is not the missing piece to a championship or even a piece of the championship puzzle. We just threw away 3 draft picks. I could care less about giving up Novak or Camby. They aren't the issue here. Losing yet another first rounder for this guy is puzzling.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:I am willing to bet the ranch that all of you guys talking up Bargnani's game would need feel the same way about it if asked 3 weeks ago while he was still a Raptor. This is a guy that has been universally panned around the league as a one dimension scorer who has had problems scoring. Don't even start on his defense and rebounding. i can't even imagine the things that would be send about him if he were traded to the Nyets.

He is not the missing piece to a championship or even a piece of the championship puzzle. We just threw away 3 draft picks. I could care less about giving up Novak or Camby. They aren't the issue here. Losing yet another first rounder for this guy is puzzling.

Honestly i am very surprised that so many Knick fans loved this move. I mean this is a guy who is one dimensional,soft and injury prone. he also hasnt lived up to a number 1 pick even remotely. I could care less about Novak's contract considering it was only like 4 million as an expiring in 2 years. I mean the raptors were trying to desperately to get rid of this guy and nobody would help them out but the Kncks always help teams out of bad situations. remember the Eddy Curray and marbury trades.

Agreed, i thought this is one deal that would have really brought upon the ire of the fanbase.

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:I am willing to bet the ranch that all of you guys talking up Bargnani's game would need feel the same way about it if asked 3 weeks ago while he was still a Raptor. This is a guy that has been universally panned around the league as a one dimension scorer who has had problems scoring. Don't even start on his defense and rebounding. i can't even imagine the things that would be send about him if he were traded to the Nyets.

He is not the missing piece to a championship or even a piece of the championship puzzle. We just threw away 3 draft picks. I could care less about giving up Novak or Camby. They aren't the issue here. Losing yet another first rounder for this guy is puzzling.

Honestly i am very surprised that so many Knick fans loved this move. I mean this is a guy who is one dimensional,soft and injury prone. he also hasnt lived up to a number 1 pick even remotely. I could care less about Novak's contract considering it was only like 4 million as an expiring in 2 years. I mean the raptors were trying to desperately to get rid of this guy and nobody would help them out but the Kncks always help teams out of bad situations. remember the Eddy Curray and marbury trades.

You can't understand it cuz you refuse to look at the fact that this team needs to fix the issues it had last year but has very few ways in which to do that. It's a flawed team but they have to play to the teams strengths. This team has shown it can defend and score the ball at a high level when it's going right, but they had an issue with some of their players not being enough of a threat to keep great defensive teams honest!!!

Think about all the wasted possessions we had with Kidd, Tyson, Prigs, Novak or even Shump not even looking to take a shot. In the playoffs that killed this team. The offense completely broke down and we couldn't score. Scoring is this teams one strength and tho they want to improve on the other aspects, you can't weaken your strength just to add a rebounder cuz that won't make you enough of a good rebounding team to overcome better rebounding teams. We're not gonna out rebound the Pacers. That's their strength.

We can't add great 2 way players cuz we don't have the resources to add that kind of player. So that leaves 1 way players. In our case we have to hope we can coach up a player like AB so that he does better on both ends. Same with Melo and STAT. You can't expect this team to go out and get an in their prime great 2 way player. How many of those guys are there and when do they come available??? Show me the list of available top tier 2 way players. All you get are the overpaid mid level 2 way guys that teams let go of all the time. How does that get you past the Pacers or Heat?

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:I am willing to bet the ranch that all of you guys talking up Bargnani's game would need feel the same way about it if asked 3 weeks ago while he was still a Raptor. This is a guy that has been universally panned around the league as a one dimension scorer who has had problems scoring. Don't even start on his defense and rebounding. i can't even imagine the things that would be send about him if he were traded to the Nyets.

He is not the missing piece to a championship or even a piece of the championship puzzle. We just threw away 3 draft picks. I could care less about giving up Novak or Camby. They aren't the issue here. Losing yet another first rounder for this guy is puzzling.

Honestly i am very surprised that so many Knick fans loved this move. I mean this is a guy who is one dimensional,soft and injury prone. he also hasnt lived up to a number 1 pick even remotely. I could care less about Novak's contract considering it was only like 4 million as an expiring in 2 years. I mean the raptors were trying to desperately to get rid of this guy and nobody would help them out but the Kncks always help teams out of bad situations. remember the Eddy Curray and marbury trades.

You can't understand it cuz you refuse to look at the fact that this team needs to fix the issues it had last year but has very few ways in which to do that. It's a flawed team but they have to play to the teams strengths. This team has shown it can defend and score the ball at a high level when it's going right, but they had an issue with some of their players not being enough of a threat to keep great defensive teams honest!!!

Think about all the wasted possessions we had with Kidd, Tyson, Prigs, Novak or even Shump not even looking to take a shot. In the playoffs that killed this team. The offense completely broke down and we couldn't score. Scoring is this teams one strength and tho they want to improve on the other aspects, you can't weaken your strength just to add a rebounder cuz that won't make you enough of a good rebounding team to overcome better rebounding teams. We're not gonna out rebound the Pacers. That's their strength.

We can't add great 2 way players cuz we don't have the resources to add that kind of player. So that leaves 1 way players. In our case we have to hope we can coach up a player like AB so that he does better on both ends. Same with Melo and STAT. You can't expect this team to go out and get an in their prime great 2 way player. How many of those guys are there and when do they come available??? Show me the list of available top tier 2 way players. All you get are the overpaid mid level 2 way guys that teams let go of all the time. How does that get you past the Pacers or Heat?

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

nixluva wrote:The whole idea of Woody loving ISO ball is a problem against the Pacers. The Pacers were the #1 team defending ISO plays. So the only way Woody is going to be successful sticking with his ISO ball is to find a way to weaken the Pacers D, by spreading it out. He's gotta get Hibbert out of the paint. That's why he wants AB and wanted Sheed in the mix when he was healthy. Hibbert almost has nothing to worry about when Tyson is in there cuz Tyson doesn't do anything except PnR and Hibbert won't leave the paint on PnR so there goes that. Now with AB in the PnR/PnP that changes. AB can stroke it from anywhere and so Hibbert wouldn't be able to just ignore his presence on the floor. He'll have to stick with him and that also presents another issue for Hibbert or any Center. AB can get by most bigs out on the perimeter. So basically AB can have a huge positive effect against one of our main foes.

This is not to say that it won't also help against the Bulls, Heat or Nets to have AB in the mix. I think any extra threats on the floor will help. Having Shump be more aggressive or THJ out on the perimeter would also help.
However, AB is more of a problem with his size. The difference between AB on Toronto and him on the Knicks is that the Knicks have more guys to worry about besides him. The defense will be preoccupied with stopping Melo, JR, Felton and that will help AB to face less help.

People want to self hate their own Knicks team, but when you look at this team you have to acknowledge that this team has some legit threats on offense that will be hard to deal with defensively. The Knicks are going to be a nightmare for opposing defenses.

Great and then on the other end we will get smashed on the boards with him at Center. Hibbert will score at will against him in the post.

I said this many times... there is the other end of the court.. I am sure the pacers will trade bargs shooting threes at 38% all night for hibbert getting point blank shots at near 100%...

I believe that a great offense can be a help to your defense. AB in 66 games in 2010-11 avg'd about 18 shots a game and 5 of those were 3's. That left 12 shots from inside the 3pt line that will have to be defended. Hibbert isn't as dominant as you're making him out to be. You also have to realize that if you have a player going at Hibbert that has Size and skill and knows how to draw fouls like AB that will effect Hibbert who has a problem with crafty offensive players away from the basket. Hibbert will commit fouls and be on the bench a lot sooner against a big like AB. How many C's in the East have the offensive skill of AB? Hibbert had a great playoff run, but that doesn't make him invincible.

Meanwhile as Hibbert is preoccupied with defending AB how ready will he be to give help on D to his teammates against our other top guys? See it's not just the individual player but how that player impacts the rest of the team. Every legit scoring threat we add only makes our other weapons that much stronger. For example teams couldn't focus on Cope since they were focused on trying to stop our other top scorers. It really helped open up the game for Cope. I don't see why that should be any different for AB and THJ this year.

You also have to realize that if you have a player going at Hibbert that has Size and skill and knows how to draw fouls like AB that will effect Hibbert who has a problem with crafty offensive players away from the basket.

you are now making bargnani out to be something he is not...

Hibbert isn't as dominant as you're making him out to be.

yes he is, vs the knicks he is and he proved that.. it has nothing to do with what I believe or make it out to be.. He is and has been dominant vs the knicks.. otherwise why are you talking about pulling him out from the basket?

Meanwhile as Hibbert is preoccupied with defending AB how ready will he be to give help on D

he won't be preocupied at all.. as far as the pacers are concerned he can shoot threes all day as long as he has to guard hibbert that won't be a situation that is good for the knicks.. if chandler couldn't handle him, the DPOY, then bargnani, probably the worst defensive big in the league, won't stand a chance in Hades.. it will be awful...

For example teams couldn't focus on Cope since they were focused on trying to stop our other top scorers. It really helped open up the game for Cope. I don't see why that should be any different for AB and THJ this year.

well if that worked so well why didn't we just resign copeland and get guys who can rebound and defend since scoring wasn't a problem right?

azamatbagatov wrote:

RonRon wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:

fishmike wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:I love the wishful thinking but I don't think we are a much better team now then the day before we got Bargnani. He doesn't even move us from being a #5 seed. Lateral move at best since he is still one of the worst rebounders and defenders in the game. If you are trading first round picks you better be making moves to help get a championship in your grasp. This doesn't qualify

Knicks were the number 2 seed. The games haven't been played. Teams have improved but Bargs could be a huge addition. The Knicks traded a pick that is relevant three years from now that the Nuggets have the right to switch with them. 9/10 times that pick is a role player if you scout well.

We were the #2 seed in a conference were the Bulls missed Rose for a year, the Pacers missed Granger for a year and the Nets weren't nearly as stacked as they are now for a 2 year run. Picks are assets. Everyone here seems to like Shumpert and Hardaway Jr. Both guys picked in the later half of the 1st round. Even the 2nd rounders sting. We could draft and stash a Foreign player like the Spurs did with Ginobli. I just don't think that adding Bargnani really makes that much of a difference for us and our outlook next year. To lose a commodity like a first rounder for a guy who won't bring us any closer to 'chip just doesn't make sense to me. That pick could have been packaged with Stat's expiring to make him more attractive to another team.

I am not a hater and I won't root for him to fail but I just think whatever he gives us on offense he will take away with atrocious rebounding and poor defense. I believe it's a lateral move at best. Also I think if the guys here talking up Bargnani's game were asked their opinion of him as a player 2 weeks before we traded for him, it wouldn't be as positive as it is today.

the picks matter, but they do not carry the weight your suggesting, and can be replaced. For every Ginobili folks cry about missing out on there are 30 Milos Vujanics and Majec Lampe's who never even play in the league for every Ginibili. So be realistic. The can yield a useful player but if you actually crunch the #s you will see the vast majority of #2 never make the league, much less become rotation players.

TFK.. what was the expectation in regards to talent your going to net with Novak, Camby and low/late future second rounders? The Knicks situation is what it is, and we did something in the Bargs trade we NEVER do, which is buy low. Yea Bargs is damaged goods, didnt live up to a #1 (bad draft and all) and isnt and likely will never be an NBA star, but he can be avery good play, clearly has some bigtime skills and the Knicks got him when his value is lowest. Is it so impossible this guy comes in, takes over the 2nd scorer's role and the Knicks are better? This move will improve our defense and rebounding because it pushed Melo back to the 3 instead of us starting him at the 4 which looks cute in the regular season vs the NBAs lower tier but has zero chance of standing up in the playoffs.

I know the 2nd rounders aren't a huge deal, but they are lost assets and along with the first rounder. We gave up way too much for guy that arguably (its a very legit argument) doesn't make us any better than last year or get us any closer to a title.

Honestly, offer a 1st round pick and ask back for a future 2nd round pick, take it or leave it, at best add in OKC's pick as well, but still need a 2nd rounder back,FINAL OFFER...
Toronto would likely still do it

I personally would not have done the trade unless I somehow can add Lowry or Amir Johnson in the deal without giving up Iman, that is the only way I can justify giving those picks up and taking on the contract of an amnesty target for the past 2 seasons

Would have been nice if Kidd allowed us to use him as an ASSET, a trade asset for salaries reasons before retiring, that was the least he could have done since we wasted our mini MLE for him

I don't know about the 1st rounder man. Once Toronto asks for a 1st, i would hang up the phone. He would have been amnestied in a couple of weeks. No way he could have come back after the way last season ended. We had the upper hand in the negotiations (IMO). We are ringless this year with or without Bargnani

exactly, I would have offered the second round picks, that is it.. I would have told the raps, if they could get a first for bargs, then go get it..