tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:if your main guy is not a two-way player-- above average on both sides of the ball-- you're ****ed. melo is not a two-way player so the knicks are ****ed.

i know i know... walsh paid cash for stat and stat is the real problem. this is the latest blame game iteration. but one guy, a non-two way player, we only paid cash for while the other non two-way we paid cash for AND traded away assets for.

isn't there a difference?

The Knicks didnt only pay cash. They moved guys and picks to get cap space. The mc Grady trade was a horrible trade. Good young players were moved or allowed to walk to acquire the cap space that became Felton and stat. If talking about a max guy who was signed despite his contract not being insure able and doctors saying his 2005 surgery would extend his career 5-7 years is what you call the blame game then I think you need to take a second, third and fourth look at things. 22 million a year for a guy that can't play will handicap a franchise in a salary capped sport 8 days a week. If the team gave up a lot to have the ability to acquire a 22 million dollar cap hold they are screwed for the better part of a decade.

It's actually amazing that the Knicks were able to still put together a team good enough to contend despite not getting production from Amar'e. I have hope that he'll be able to come back and give us something this year. Both knees have been cleaned out and I hope that with reduced minutes he can make it thru the season and be able to give us some decent minutes in the playoffs next year. I think they really should've just shut him down and cleaned out both knees from the start this year. They keep trying to push thru when maybe it's best to give his knees a break and see if they can heal enough to get 2 more yrs out of them.

In any event I think there's no reason to continue to bash Melo for his game. He is what he is and knowing what he does, we have to build a team around his game which will be able to succeed. I think we need more rebounding for sure. More overall BB IQ. More speed and dynamic players that can come in and give this team a boost like Nate did for the Bulls. JR was filling that role, but we need more than just him. The issues with Shump, Kidd and Prigs not being scorers really limited this team. We actually needed more speed and scoring at times and we didn't have it. We got nothing from White who was supposed to be a speedy, athletic player.

So we've got some spots to fill with guys that can actually give us some production and athletic ability. Imagine this team with a few more guys that are able to do that? Imagine replacing Kidd, White, Sheed n KT with younger more athletic players? It's very doable even with our cap restraints. Get 2 in the draft if we get another pick. Add some D League or undrafted rookies. Sign a FA and we can restock this team with at least better and younger talent than we had last year. They won't have the experience we had, but they should be able to play hard for a full season.

what did we contend for? we got blitzed in the second round by a team that was also missing one of it's best players...

In any event I think there's no reason to continue to bash Melo for his game. He is what he is and knowing what he does, we have to build a team around his game which will be able to succeed.

my goodness, don't you see the problem with that? It is like saying, " I know the foundation is cracked and falling apart, it is what it is.. with that in mind we need to build a house on this foundation that will stand for 100 years".... really? don't you see a problem with all of this?

The Knicks had no business losing game 1 to the Pacers!!! You do realize that you likely wouldn't be saying this stuff if JR had not completely imploded. That kind of failure was not to be expected. We had no reason to think JR would be that much of a let down. Also Woody did a horrible job and only added to the teams dysfunction. I think it's entirely possible to put a better team around Melo and get further in the playoffs than we did this year.

IMO there are always teams out there looking to start fresh and they may be willing to deal and send us a player they don't want to pay going forward, but that same player may be talented and just in the wrong situation. You never see those kinds of deals coming, but the Knicks could be looking for deals like that.

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:if your main guy is not a two-way player-- above average on both sides of the ball-- you're ****ed. melo is not a two-way player so the knicks are ****ed.

i know i know... walsh paid cash for stat and stat is the real problem. this is the latest blame game iteration. but one guy, a non-two way player, we only paid cash for while the other non two-way we paid cash for AND traded away assets for.

isn't there a difference?

The Knicks didnt only pay cash. They moved guys and picks to get cap space. The mc Grady trade was a horrible trade. Good young players were moved or allowed to walk to acquire the cap space that became Felton and stat. If talking about a max guy who was signed despite his contract not being insure able and doctors saying his 2005 surgery would extend his career 5-7 years is what you call the blame game then I think you need to take a second, third and fourth look at things. 22 million a year for a guy that can't play will handicap a franchise in a salary capped sport 8 days a week. If the team gave up a lot to have the ability to acquire a 22 million dollar cap hold they are screwed for the better part of a decade.

It's actually amazing that the Knicks were able to still put together a team good enough to contend despite not getting production from Amar'e. I have hope that he'll be able to come back and give us something this year. Both knees have been cleaned out and I hope that with reduced minutes he can make it thru the season and be able to give us some decent minutes in the playoffs next year. I think they really should've just shut him down and cleaned out both knees from the start this year. They keep trying to push thru when maybe it's best to give his knees a break and see if they can heal enough to get 2 more yrs out of them.

In any event I think there's no reason to continue to bash Melo for his game. He is what he is and knowing what he does, we have to build a team around his game which will be able to succeed. I think we need more rebounding for sure. More overall BB IQ. More speed and dynamic players that can come in and give this team a boost like Nate did for the Bulls. JR was filling that role, but we need more than just him. The issues with Shump, Kidd and Prigs not being scorers really limited this team. We actually needed more speed and scoring at times and we didn't have it. We got nothing from White who was supposed to be a speedy, athletic player.

So we've got some spots to fill with guys that can actually give us some production and athletic ability. Imagine this team with a few more guys that are able to do that? Imagine replacing Kidd, White, Sheed n KT with younger more athletic players? It's very doable even with our cap restraints. Get 2 in the draft if we get another pick. Add some D League or undrafted rookies. Sign a FA and we can restock this team with at least better and younger talent than we had last year. They won't have the experience we had, but they should be able to play hard for a full season.

what did we contend for? we got blitzed in the second round by a team that was also missing one of it's best players...

In any event I think there's no reason to continue to bash Melo for his game. He is what he is and knowing what he does, we have to build a team around his game which will be able to succeed.

my goodness, don't you see the problem with that? It is like saying, " I know the foundation is cracked and falling apart, it is what it is.. with that in mind we need to build a house on this foundation that will stand for 100 years".... really? don't you see a problem with all of this?

The Knicks had no business losing game 1 to the Pacers!!! You do realize that you likely wouldn't be saying this stuff if JR had not completely imploded. That kind of failure was not to be expected. We had no reason to think JR would be that much of a let down. Also Woody did a horrible job and only added to the teams dysfunction. I think it's entirely possible to put a better team around Melo and get further in the playoffs than we did this year.

IMO there are always teams out there looking to start fresh and they may be willing to deal and send us a player they don't want to pay going forward, but that same player may be talented and just in the wrong situation. You never see those kinds of deals coming, but the Knicks could be looking for deals like that.

And if george hill is playing game 5, the pacers probably don't lose that one..

That kind of failure was not to be expected. We had no reason to think JR would be that much of a let down. Also Woody did a horrible job and only added to the teams dysfunction. I think it's entirely possible to put a better team around Melo and get further in the playoffs than we did this year.

I absolutely expected JR smith to be a let down.. he always has been.. as far as woodson, wasn't he "carmelo's guy".... he sabotaged dantoni and now he got what he wanted, but now it is woodys fault.. don't you see the problem with this?

You can't build a good product on rocky foundation pieces.. carmelo is a huge piece of that foundation....

melo not moving the ball
Tyson playing soft
Kidds offense and defense
Feltons struggles in game 1 and 6
JR not being focus
Amare's absence
Woodsons rotations

These are not big issues to deal with, we lost in this yrs playoffs for lack of a mental approach..At the end of the day it all falls back on the coaches in ability to prepare properly, but the player need to be held accountable because they fck up playing selfishly

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:When looking at the entire MOVIE, it wasn't just Woodsons moves, it was

melo not moving the ball
Tyson playing soft
Kidds offense and defense
Feltons struggles in game 1 and 6
JR not being focus
Amare's absence
Woodsons rotations

These are not big issues to deal with, we lost in this yrs playoffs for lack of a mental approach..At the end of the day it all falls back on the coaches in ability to prepare properly, but the player need to be held accountable because they fck up playing selfishly

This is why I have bashed the job Woody did. No one looking at the Knicks post season can say that this team looked mentally ready to execute on a high level in all aspects of the game. A lack of ball and player movement, pace and focus on D. You can't stop or predict a player from slumping, but as a TEAM you should see a high level of execution of the things that the team is supposed to be good at. When this team was really humming it was when they were getting great Ball and Player movement. That's how the Knicks beat the Heat even without Melo. The ball didn't stick. They just kept moving it until they got a wide open shot. That's what I wanted to see, regardless of who was on the floor. That's Woody's job to hold his players accountable to solid BB principles.

well then you are advocating woodson benches carmelo, but lets be real, carmelo has played this way for 11 seasons, and he was allowed to, do you think he changes that now? Dantoni tried and was run out of town.... who the hell is woodson to think it won't happen to him? Again, it starts at the top, but also falls on the player... dolan and carmelo are much alike, and that is the biggest problem we have...

arkrud wrote:The issues we have a way dipper that just Melo ball hugging and woody ineptness on offense.
With Spurs and Heat you see 2 conceptual systems mastered almost to perfection by great coaches and talented players who bought into the system and put the wining above all.
Knicks as an organization in not even near this and most likely will go in opposite direction.
This club is driven by entertainment goals; selling tickets and other around bbal stuff, creating drama and media noise.
So just enjoy the show.

Very much like the Jets.

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

arkrud wrote:The issues we have a way dipper that just Melo ball hugging and woody ineptness on offense.
With Spurs and Heat you see 2 conceptual systems mastered almost to perfection by great coaches and talented players who bought into the system and put the wining above all.
Knicks as an organization in not even near this and most likely will go in opposite direction.
This club is driven by entertainment goals; selling tickets and other around bbal stuff, creating drama and media noise.
So just enjoy the show.

Very much like the Jets.

Hey watch out for the Jets from here on out. Idzik is doing this the right way. We've got TONS of young talent this team drafted and look ready to really contribute and even more draft picks next year. The Jest will have tons of cap room too. In fact the Jets are nothing like the Knicks at this point. The Jets have a real future taking shape. Last season for the Jets was the end of that era of poor management. I only wish the Knicks had a Mo Wilkerson, Q. Coples, S. Richardson and K. Ellis on the D Line. Demario Davis, Dee Milliner, Geno Smith and a slew of other young well regarded draft picks. Players that will have key roles this year and are ready to take over going forward. Knicks don't keep draft picks. This years Jets are loaded with draft picks. The Jets aren't perfect but if they draft well next year they should be set. I do hope the Knicks will acquire more picks and use the undrafted FA's to try and find some overlooked gems.

Why do you keep saying the knicks have no future..like this is 2004 and we have multiple players with more then 3 yrs on there contract..After 2015 the knicks have a blank roster and all the cap in the world, thats 2 yrs.

As long as we don't make assinine trades and add some bloated contracts we will have a future

Also, I happen to like this team and I don't see a bleak future (as a fan). If Amare can have a productive season (doubtful), then that's just A1 source on my steak which I like.

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

arkrud wrote:The issues we have a way dipper that just Melo ball hugging and woody ineptness on offense.
With Spurs and Heat you see 2 conceptual systems mastered almost to perfection by great coaches and talented players who bought into the system and put the wining above all.
Knicks as an organization in not even near this and most likely will go in opposite direction.
This club is driven by entertainment goals; selling tickets and other around bbal stuff, creating drama and media noise.
So just enjoy the show.

Very much like the Jets.

Hey watch out for the Jets from here on out. Idzik is doing this the right way. We've got TONS of young talent this team drafted and look ready to really contribute and even more draft picks next year. The Jest will have tons of cap room too. In fact the Jets are nothing like the Knicks at this point. The Jets have a real future taking shape. Last season for the Jets was the end of that era of poor management. I only wish the Knicks had a Mo Wilkerson, Q. Coples, S. Richardson and K. Ellis on the D Line. Demario Davis, Dee Milliner, Geno Smith and a slew of other young well regarded draft picks. Players that will have key roles this year and are ready to take over going forward. Knicks don't keep draft picks. This years Jets are loaded with draft picks. The Jets aren't perfect but if they draft well next year they should be set. I do hope the Knicks will acquire more picks and use the undrafted FA's to try and find some overlooked gems.

Why do you keep saying the knicks have no future..like this is 2004 and we have multiple players with more then 3 yrs on there contract..After 2015 the knicks have a blank roster and all the cap in the world, thats 2 yrs.

As long as we don't make assinine trades and add some bloated contracts we will have a future

It takes time to rebuild though. After 2015, you could start the beginning of a 3 or so year plan, sure. But that takes you to around 2018!
There was a survey of about 200 journalists, who rated the Knicks as having the 25th best future of the 30 teams in the league.

exactly bonn.. after the carmelo trade the knicks were basically saying, we are going to win with this group now... this team is not built for the future and to build a team, you need flexibility, assets including picks.... not having a pick in 2014 and not having control of our 2016 pick is huge.. that is 2 picks over the next 4 years that we don't control.... that is not good at all, considering that shumpert is our only young player.... now if the knicks had shumpert, lin, and maybe another young player or two in the wings, then you are talking about a different situation, but we don't have that, we emptied the coffers to get carmelo and most NY fans were 100% fine with it... they understood how this would drain our future assets, they acknowledged it.. now I am hearing a different tune..

3G4G wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

arkrud wrote:The issues we have a way dipper that just Melo ball hugging and woody ineptness on offense.
With Spurs and Heat you see 2 conceptual systems mastered almost to perfection by great coaches and talented players who bought into the system and put the wining above all.
Knicks as an organization in not even near this and most likely will go in opposite direction.
This club is driven by entertainment goals; selling tickets and other around bbal stuff, creating drama and media noise.
So just enjoy the show.

Very much like the Jets.

Hey watch out for the Jets from here on out. Idzik is doing this the right way. We've got TONS of young talent this team drafted and look ready to really contribute and even more draft picks next year. The Jest will have tons of cap room too. In fact the Jets are nothing like the Knicks at this point. The Jets have a real future taking shape. Last season for the Jets was the end of that era of poor management. I only wish the Knicks had a Mo Wilkerson, Q. Coples, S. Richardson and K. Ellis on the D Line. Demario Davis, Dee Milliner, Geno Smith and a slew of other young well regarded draft picks. Players that will have key roles this year and are ready to take over going forward. Knicks don't keep draft picks. This years Jets are loaded with draft picks. The Jets aren't perfect but if they draft well next year they should be set. I do hope the Knicks will acquire more picks and use the undrafted FA's to try and find some overlooked gems.

Why do you keep saying the knicks have no future..like this is 2004 and we have multiple players with more then 3 yrs on there contract..After 2015 the knicks have a blank roster and all the cap in the world, thats 2 yrs.

As long as we don't make assinine trades and add some bloated contracts we will have a future

It takes time to rebuild though. After 2015, you could start the beginning of a 3 or so year plan, sure. But that takes you to around 2018!
There was a survey of about 200 journalists, who rated the Knicks as having the 25th best future of the 30 teams in the league.

exactly bonn.. after the carmelo trade the knicks were basically saying, we are going to win with this group now... this team is not built for the future and to build a team, you need flexibility, assets including picks.... not having a pick in 2014 and not having control of our 2016 pick is huge.. that is 2 picks over the next 4 years that we don't control.... that is not good at all, considering that shumpert is our only young player.... now if the knicks had shumpert, lin, and maybe another young player or two in the wings, then you are talking about a different situation, but we don't have that, we emptied the coffers to get carmelo and most NY fans were 100% fine with it... they understood how this would drain our future assets, they acknowledged it.. now I am hearing a different tune..

No team plans on rebuilding with low position biannual draft assets, while they're trying to be an elite team in the interim. Is anyone paying attention to this idiotic logic....?

So basically what fans are saying is...if the Carmelo plan is a failure...(never make it past second round per say) then we'll start rebuilding....players with bloated contracts on the other side of 30 who couldn't get the job done...while having low draft positions in bi yrs?

Start naming teams who rebuilt quickly that way? I'm talking 3yrs or less?

i DON'T know any 3g.. what we are doing is recognizing a failed plan, and trying to half fix it, while holding onto the failed plan...

dk7th wrote:

3G4G wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

arkrud wrote:The issues we have a way dipper that just Melo ball hugging and woody ineptness on offense.
With Spurs and Heat you see 2 conceptual systems mastered almost to perfection by great coaches and talented players who bought into the system and put the wining above all.
Knicks as an organization in not even near this and most likely will go in opposite direction.
This club is driven by entertainment goals; selling tickets and other around bbal stuff, creating drama and media noise.
So just enjoy the show.

Very much like the Jets.

Hey watch out for the Jets from here on out. Idzik is doing this the right way. We've got TONS of young talent this team drafted and look ready to really contribute and even more draft picks next year. The Jest will have tons of cap room too. In fact the Jets are nothing like the Knicks at this point. The Jets have a real future taking shape. Last season for the Jets was the end of that era of poor management. I only wish the Knicks had a Mo Wilkerson, Q. Coples, S. Richardson and K. Ellis on the D Line. Demario Davis, Dee Milliner, Geno Smith and a slew of other young well regarded draft picks. Players that will have key roles this year and are ready to take over going forward. Knicks don't keep draft picks. This years Jets are loaded with draft picks. The Jets aren't perfect but if they draft well next year they should be set. I do hope the Knicks will acquire more picks and use the undrafted FA's to try and find some overlooked gems.

Why do you keep saying the knicks have no future..like this is 2004 and we have multiple players with more then 3 yrs on there contract..After 2015 the knicks have a blank roster and all the cap in the world, thats 2 yrs.

As long as we don't make assinine trades and add some bloated contracts we will have a future

It takes time to rebuild though. After 2015, you could start the beginning of a 3 or so year plan, sure. But that takes you to around 2018!
There was a survey of about 200 journalists, who rated the Knicks as having the 25th best future of the 30 teams in the league.

exactly bonn.. after the carmelo trade the knicks were basically saying, we are going to win with this group now... this team is not built for the future and to build a team, you need flexibility, assets including picks.... not having a pick in 2014 and not having control of our 2016 pick is huge.. that is 2 picks over the next 4 years that we don't control.... that is not good at all, considering that shumpert is our only young player.... now if the knicks had shumpert, lin, and maybe another young player or two in the wings, then you are talking about a different situation, but we don't have that, we emptied the coffers to get carmelo and most NY fans were 100% fine with it... they understood how this would drain our future assets, they acknowledged it.. now I am hearing a different tune..

No team plans on rebuilding with low position biannual draft assets, while they're trying to be an elite team in the interim. Is anyone paying attention to this idiotic logic....?

So basically what fans are saying is...if the Carmelo plan is a failure...(never make it past second round per say) then we'll start rebuilding....players with bloated contracts on the other side of 30 who couldn't get the job done...while having low draft positions in bi yrs?

Start naming teams who rebuilt quickly that way? I'm talking 3yrs or less?

idiotic logic is an oxymoron but no matter what you call it the situation is sickening.

pacers are going to get better... that alone is enough to want to blow this **** up.

chicago may get a bit better too.

miami may fall off a bit but they'll still be better than new york.

the knicks will remain in nba limbo, ranked between 6-10 and never quite making it to the conference finals or even a convincing second round appearance.

yet somehow we will still be told that at least the knicks will be entertaining. YUCK

LOL, that is what I said... and lord forbid they are able to parlay Granger into something this offseason.... jeez..

knicks1248 wrote:Since when are expiring contracts not considered assets.

Lin is not an assets even though he's young, he's no where close to playing on the level of his contract, and by the time it expires, we'll have cap room to sign him or any other young player for a reasonable amount.

So am I to believe the Twolves have a better future then the Knicks because they have young talent, and are a fixture in the lottery yr after yr

Every playoff team has a 3 yr plan, we are essentially in yr 2, if things don't workout in 2013/14 season, then 2014/15 will see major moves with our core contracts in the final yr

what major moves can we make, without many picks in the fold?