tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.

not sure how what you posted backs up what the title of the thread says..

OKC
Indy
GSW
Houston
Atlanta
Spurs
Miami

All of these teams are/were built through the draft, so how is the draft proving to be a difficult way to build a team..

if anything, trying to buy, starphuch, and free agent your way to winning has proved futile over the years...

I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season,

I want you to look at what you wrote.. You see when you can't check homerism at the door, it just makes having a logical discussion impossible..

You said you really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some top 10 picks.. well of course that can happen with any team.. you can get lucky, it has happened, but you will need very good scouting.. when have the knicks ever done that? we don't have a history of that..

then you go on to basically say that teams picking high, have to make sure they get the pick right, if not go through it again.. well lets be fair, if you think the knicks will get it right at 24, then you must assume that the teams picking in the lottery will apply the same logic and get it right, and since they have higher picks, will most likely take the best talent..

what you basically said, and I will sum it up is..

Because we are the knicks, I feel we will get a stud at 24

lottery teams most likely will screw up and draft a dud and have to repeat the process over and over again..

LOL.. really man? really? well maybe not, maybe 7 of lottery teams get it right, maybe they all do.. who knows.. but what we do know are teams are taking a different approach, and teams are getting better, quick... to assume that the sixers, kings, wolves, raptors, cavs,wizards, suns,portland.. all who have done very well in the draft the past few years will just muck this one up, and the knicks will land a stud at 24 is just a bit ridiculous.....

Anthony davis, kidd gilchrist, bradley beal, dion waiters,Thomas Robinson, Damian lillard,harrison barnes, Terrance ross, Andre drummond..

from the looks of it, most of those teams have gotten some fantastic playes.. Lillard, waiters, beal, gilchrist,davis, ross, barnes, all seem to be more than solid picks and I can tell you, 4 to 5 of those guys will be allstars very soon... another draft like that, and those teams will be shooting up the rankings...

YES YOU CAN BUILD THROUGH THE DRAFT.. that with a combination of smart FA signings.. Not starphucs...and you will have a good team.. see the pacers!!

Of all the teams you just mentioned only spurs and heat have won a title, and only spurs have won it centered around their own picks. The rest of the teams are only hopefuls at this point. But thank you for supporting my point with your examples. Okc is the example of when everything in a rebuild goes right in a 3 year period, and even with them their is no guarantee. This draft is an example of why hopeful rebuilding teams will have to fast forward thru yet another year of tanking so they get another try. That is what I was pointing out.

Also know one said we pick a stud at 24 and all lotto teams get it wrong, sorry you interpreted it that way.

All of those player you mentioned could be good, however it's unknown if they can be core players or franchise players to help a championship team. Yes the pacers are good, one of the few examples of a team that is successful in rebuilding, although no guarantee they win it all.

OKC been to the finals, Atlanta has been consistently good, and the other teams are on the rise.. that is the point.. the knicks trying the way they have been has resulted in nothing but heartache and dissappointment...

Are you happy with what happened this year? honestly..

How is the Knicks way heartache and disappointment when the other team you're praising havent even gotten that far?

Denver has yet to get out of the first, as Houston and they made it mainly due to Harden acquisition which was a trade.

The issue is there is no proven way OKC is the exception not the norm, and there is no guarantee they make it back.

simple, the last 10 years has have been horrible and just when walsh started cleaning this mess up, we go into sabotage mode again.... we have an old team, a lot of uncertainties and 3 bloated salaries.... no youth(except 1 player) very little picks.. yes this is a dissapointment..

Denver, Houston, GS all have bright futures, they are already better than the knicks and their best years are ahead of them, why is this so hard for you to grasp?

Again, your opinion of these teams is based on the idea of untapped potential and not sustainable results. It's easy to say so and so has a bright future. You talk about this team like we are stuck this way forever. Keep in mind this team has an Out in 2 years. In those 2 years we will still be a good team, still likely have better success then the teams you mention, and plenty of flexibility when those 2 years are done.

we are stuck because we have horrible deals on the books and no picks and no real young talent.. it is simple.... those other teams, when you project out, are in better shape... now anything can happen, but keeping things on course for the knicks and those teams, their future is just in much better shape...

We have all of our picks with the exception of next year, not sure why you keep using that as defense. Also, Shumpert would be considered by many as "young talent" so not sure why you said we don't have any, unless you do not consider him talented. The horrible deals on the books all expire in 2 years, all of them. Those teams you always use as example "project as having bright futures," No guarantees they are championship rosters. No sustainable results, just opinion. Much can be said that we have a bright future given we have a ton of cap space in 2 seasons, a young defensive stud, our own pick this season, and Melo as a building block. Not suggesting "build around him" we aren't opening that can of worms, but he is a building block for any team in the NBA. So basically in 2 years you have Melo, Shumpert, our draft pick, possible 6th man of the year Smith, a couple of other reasonable contracts, and loads of cap space. Sounds good to me.

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:The bottom line +85% of all NBA champions drafted their core players

Im not going to list everyone going back but for example

Pippen Jordan Grant
Isiah Thomas Joe Dumare Bill Laimber
Hakeem
Kobe
Tim Duncan Parker Ginobli
Magic Johnson James Worthy etc
Larry Bird Kevin Mchale Robert Parrish

Go look back--its not even a debate. The draft is the most important process in building your team proven without a doubt

That type of quality is no longer available in the draft. None of those teams you mentioned have been assembled in the past decade. This is a thing of the past. If we were in the 90s I would agree with you, but not today.

NBA Champs past Decade:
Heat - Wade
Mavericks - Nowitzki
Lakers - Kobe
Spurs - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
Pistons - the lone exception, but even then Tayshaun Prince was a starter and key component.

So how is Briggs point wrong???

Again you are talking about players drafted in the 90s and only San Antonio has more than one player drafted that consists of its championship core. A team built around wade does not win a title, he has 2 other players who joined him later on. Nowitzki didn't win until he had the right formula of guys such as Kidd chandler and Marion join via trade. Same with boston. Same with the lakers who only have won with Shaq and gasol. So to Briggs point it is accurate to say that 85% of teams who won drafted a core player but not their core players. Typically only 1/3 of their core consists of drafted player. It's the free agent signing and trades that allow them to win a title. Only exception in the past 15 years in San Antonio where their championship core can be attribute completely to building thru the draft. No one else even has half of their core drafted.

Looking at the following heat roster in 2006 when they won the finals.. please tell me who this team was built around.. and DO NOT SAY SHAQ!!!!

I highlighted the name to help you out there buddy...

G/F 5 Derek Anderson (Kentucky)
G/F 49 Shandon Anderson (University of Georgia)
C 30 Earl Barron (Memphis)
C 51 Michael Doleac (Utah)
SF 24 Jason Kapono (UCLA)
C/PF 33 Alonzo Mourning (Georgetown)
C 32 Shaquille O'Neal – Captain (LSU)
PG 20 Gary Payton (Oregon State)
SF/G 42 James Posey (Xavier (Ohio))
PF 25 Wayne Simien (Kansas)
SG 3 Dwyane Wade – Captain (Marquette)
PG
{Eddie Jones
55 Jason Williams (Florida/Marshall)
SF 1 Dorell Wright (South Kent Prep HS,
Lawndale, California)
F 40 Udonis Haslem (University of Florida)
F 8 Antoine Walker (University of Kentucky)
Chris Anderson N/A

They would not have won the title if it wasn't for Shaq. He was the difference maker. If you need proof of that, look at how wade did in the years between shaq and lebron.

oh cut it out!!!!!!!!

I swear to god you will go to any level no matter how ridiculous it may be to prove your point.. . Stop trying to justify how the knicks do business and I guarantee your argument will actually be reasonable.. come on man, are we going to have a serious debate or not?

Wade was a BEAST, that is why they won.. he averaged 25/5/5 on 50% shooting.. that is why they won... along with some nice calls from the refs, but whatever.. Guy was a monster.. for you to sell shaq as a difference maker is ridiculous

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:The bottom line +85% of all NBA champions drafted their core players

Im not going to list everyone going back but for example

Pippen Jordan Grant
Isiah Thomas Joe Dumare Bill Laimber
Hakeem
Kobe
Tim Duncan Parker Ginobli
Magic Johnson James Worthy etc
Larry Bird Kevin Mchale Robert Parrish

Go look back--its not even a debate. The draft is the most important process in building your team proven without a doubt

That type of quality is no longer available in the draft. None of those teams you mentioned have been assembled in the past decade. This is a thing of the past. If we were in the 90s I would agree with you, but not today.

NBA Champs past Decade:
Heat - Wade
Mavericks - Nowitzki
Lakers - Kobe
Spurs - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
Pistons - the lone exception, but even then Tayshaun Prince was a starter and key component.

So how is Briggs point wrong???

Again you are talking about players drafted in the 90s and only San Antonio has more than one player drafted that consists of its championship core. A team built around wade does not win a title, he has 2 other players who joined him later on. Nowitzki didn't win until he had the right formula of guys such as Kidd chandler and Marion join via trade. Same with boston. Same with the lakers who only have won with Shaq and gasol. So to Briggs point it is accurate to say that 85% of teams who won drafted a core player but not their core players. Typically only 1/3 of their core consists of drafted player. It's the free agent signing and trades that allow them to win a title. Only exception in the past 15 years in San Antonio where their championship core can be attribute completely to building thru the draft. No one else even has half of their core drafted.

Looking at the following heat roster in 2006 when they won the finals.. please tell me who this team was built around.. and DO NOT SAY SHAQ!!!!

I highlighted the name to help you out there buddy...

G/F 5 Derek Anderson (Kentucky)
G/F 49 Shandon Anderson (University of Georgia)
C 30 Earl Barron (Memphis)
C 51 Michael Doleac (Utah)
SF 24 Jason Kapono (UCLA)
C/PF 33 Alonzo Mourning (Georgetown)
C 32 Shaquille O'Neal – Captain (LSU)
PG 20 Gary Payton (Oregon State)
SF/G 42 James Posey (Xavier (Ohio))
PF 25 Wayne Simien (Kansas)
SG 3 Dwyane Wade – Captain (Marquette)
PG
{Eddie Jones
55 Jason Williams (Florida/Marshall)
SF 1 Dorell Wright (South Kent Prep HS,
Lawndale, California)
F 40 Udonis Haslem (University of Florida)
F 8 Antoine Walker (University of Kentucky)
Chris Anderson N/A

They would not have won the title if it wasn't for Shaq. He was the difference maker. If you need proof of that, look at how wade did in the years between shaq and lebron.

oh cut it out!!!!!!!!

I swear to god you will go to any level no matter how ridiculous it may be to prove your point.. . Stop trying to justify how the knicks do business and I guarantee your argument will actually be reasonable.. come on man, are we going to have a serious debate or not?

Wade was a BEAST, that is why they won.. he averaged 25/5/5 on 50% shooting.. that is why they won... along with some nice calls from the refs, but whatever.. Guy was a monster.. for you to sell shaq as a difference maker is ridiculous

Yes Wade was a beast, but where was he the years after? Shaq was still a top NBA center a 20/10 guy. Superstar. If building around Wade was the answer they wouldn't have struggled to make the playoffs the following years. Not justifying how the Knicks do business, i agree they have made failures. But you make it seem like building thru the draft and rebuilding around young players is the answer, yet is has not worked in many, many years. Why don't you get that? Is it exciting? Yes. You want a Knicks team with young prospects you can be excited about, i get that. But let me know when it produces a championship team.

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.

not sure how what you posted backs up what the title of the thread says..

OKC
Indy
GSW
Houston
Atlanta
Spurs
Miami

All of these teams are/were built through the draft, so how is the draft proving to be a difficult way to build a team..

if anything, trying to buy, starphuch, and free agent your way to winning has proved futile over the years...

I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season,

I want you to look at what you wrote.. You see when you can't check homerism at the door, it just makes having a logical discussion impossible..

You said you really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some top 10 picks.. well of course that can happen with any team.. you can get lucky, it has happened, but you will need very good scouting.. when have the knicks ever done that? we don't have a history of that..

then you go on to basically say that teams picking high, have to make sure they get the pick right, if not go through it again.. well lets be fair, if you think the knicks will get it right at 24, then you must assume that the teams picking in the lottery will apply the same logic and get it right, and since they have higher picks, will most likely take the best talent..

what you basically said, and I will sum it up is..

Because we are the knicks, I feel we will get a stud at 24

lottery teams most likely will screw up and draft a dud and have to repeat the process over and over again..

LOL.. really man? really? well maybe not, maybe 7 of lottery teams get it right, maybe they all do.. who knows.. but what we do know are teams are taking a different approach, and teams are getting better, quick... to assume that the sixers, kings, wolves, raptors, cavs,wizards, suns,portland.. all who have done very well in the draft the past few years will just muck this one up, and the knicks will land a stud at 24 is just a bit ridiculous.....

Anthony davis, kidd gilchrist, bradley beal, dion waiters,Thomas Robinson, Damian lillard,harrison barnes, Terrance ross, Andre drummond..

from the looks of it, most of those teams have gotten some fantastic playes.. Lillard, waiters, beal, gilchrist,davis, ross, barnes, all seem to be more than solid picks and I can tell you, 4 to 5 of those guys will be allstars very soon... another draft like that, and those teams will be shooting up the rankings...

YES YOU CAN BUILD THROUGH THE DRAFT.. that with a combination of smart FA signings.. Not starphucs...and you will have a good team.. see the pacers!!

Of all the teams you just mentioned only spurs and heat have won a title, and only spurs have won it centered around their own picks. The rest of the teams are only hopefuls at this point. But thank you for supporting my point with your examples. Okc is the example of when everything in a rebuild goes right in a 3 year period, and even with them their is no guarantee. This draft is an example of why hopeful rebuilding teams will have to fast forward thru yet another year of tanking so they get another try. That is what I was pointing out.

Also know one said we pick a stud at 24 and all lotto teams get it wrong, sorry you interpreted it that way.

All of those player you mentioned could be good, however it's unknown if they can be core players or franchise players to help a championship team. Yes the pacers are good, one of the few examples of a team that is successful in rebuilding, although no guarantee they win it all.

OKC been to the finals, Atlanta has been consistently good, and the other teams are on the rise.. that is the point.. the knicks trying the way they have been has resulted in nothing but heartache and dissappointment...

Are you happy with what happened this year? honestly..

How is the Knicks way heartache and disappointment when the other team you're praising havent even gotten that far?

Denver has yet to get out of the first, as Houston and they made it mainly due to Harden acquisition which was a trade.

The issue is there is no proven way OKC is the exception not the norm, and there is no guarantee they make it back.

simple, the last 10 years has have been horrible and just when walsh started cleaning this mess up, we go into sabotage mode again.... we have an old team, a lot of uncertainties and 3 bloated salaries.... no youth(except 1 player) very little picks.. yes this is a dissapointment..

Denver, Houston, GS all have bright futures, they are already better than the knicks and their best years are ahead of them, why is this so hard for you to grasp?

Again, your opinion of these teams is based on the idea of untapped potential and not sustainable results. It's easy to say so and so has a bright future. You talk about this team like we are stuck this way forever. Keep in mind this team has an Out in 2 years. In those 2 years we will still be a good team, still likely have better success then the teams you mention, and plenty of flexibility when those 2 years are done.

we are stuck because we have horrible deals on the books and no picks and no real young talent.. it is simple.... those other teams, when you project out, are in better shape... now anything can happen, but keeping things on course for the knicks and those teams, their future is just in much better shape...

We have all of our picks with the exception of next year, not sure why you keep using that as defense. Also, Shumpert would be considered by many as "young talent" so not sure why you said we don't have any, unless you do not consider him talented. The horrible deals on the books all expire in 2 years, all of them. Those teams you always use as example "project as having bright futures," No guarantees they are championship rosters. No sustainable results, just opinion. Much can be said that we have a bright future given we have a ton of cap space in 2 seasons, a young defensive stud, our own pick this season, and Melo as a building block. Not suggesting "build around him" we aren't opening that can of worms, but he is a building block for any team in the NBA. So basically in 2 years you have Melo, Shumpert, our draft pick, possible 6th man of the year Smith, a couple of other reasonable contracts, and loads of cap space. Sounds good to me.

not having a pick next year and a swap in 2016 is huge.. you do understand for a team with no young talent, (and let me say this, I like shumpert, but having him as your only young piece is not a lot to build off)....not having control of your pick in 2 of the next 4 years is HUGE!!

Much can be said that we have a bright future given we have a ton of cap space in 2 seasons, a young defensive stud, our own pick this season, and Melo as a building block. Not suggesting "build around him" we aren't opening that can of worms, but he is a building block for any team in the NBA. So basically in 2 years you have Melo,

I think your problem is that you grossly overvalue our situation... shumpert is a decent piece.. No more than that...

having cap space in 2 years with very little young talent and picks is not as appealing, just think in two years, where teams like cleveland may be... we are falling behind as we speak right now...

and carmelo is not a building block bro... I don't want to get into this either, but he is not a building block now and certainly won't be one in two years... that ship has sailed..

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:The bottom line +85% of all NBA champions drafted their core players

Im not going to list everyone going back but for example

Pippen Jordan Grant
Isiah Thomas Joe Dumare Bill Laimber
Hakeem
Kobe
Tim Duncan Parker Ginobli
Magic Johnson James Worthy etc
Larry Bird Kevin Mchale Robert Parrish

Go look back--its not even a debate. The draft is the most important process in building your team proven without a doubt

That type of quality is no longer available in the draft. None of those teams you mentioned have been assembled in the past decade. This is a thing of the past. If we were in the 90s I would agree with you, but not today.

NBA Champs past Decade:
Heat - Wade
Mavericks - Nowitzki
Lakers - Kobe
Spurs - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
Pistons - the lone exception, but even then Tayshaun Prince was a starter and key component.

So how is Briggs point wrong???

Again you are talking about players drafted in the 90s and only San Antonio has more than one player drafted that consists of its championship core. A team built around wade does not win a title, he has 2 other players who joined him later on. Nowitzki didn't win until he had the right formula of guys such as Kidd chandler and Marion join via trade. Same with boston. Same with the lakers who only have won with Shaq and gasol. So to Briggs point it is accurate to say that 85% of teams who won drafted a core player but not their core players. Typically only 1/3 of their core consists of drafted player. It's the free agent signing and trades that allow them to win a title. Only exception in the past 15 years in San Antonio where their championship core can be attribute completely to building thru the draft. No one else even has half of their core drafted.

Looking at the following heat roster in 2006 when they won the finals.. please tell me who this team was built around.. and DO NOT SAY SHAQ!!!!

I highlighted the name to help you out there buddy...

G/F 5 Derek Anderson (Kentucky)
G/F 49 Shandon Anderson (University of Georgia)
C 30 Earl Barron (Memphis)
C 51 Michael Doleac (Utah)
SF 24 Jason Kapono (UCLA)
C/PF 33 Alonzo Mourning (Georgetown)
C 32 Shaquille O'Neal – Captain (LSU)
PG 20 Gary Payton (Oregon State)
SF/G 42 James Posey (Xavier (Ohio))
PF 25 Wayne Simien (Kansas)
SG 3 Dwyane Wade – Captain (Marquette)
PG
{Eddie Jones
55 Jason Williams (Florida/Marshall)
SF 1 Dorell Wright (South Kent Prep HS,
Lawndale, California)
F 40 Udonis Haslem (University of Florida)
F 8 Antoine Walker (University of Kentucky)
Chris Anderson N/A

They would not have won the title if it wasn't for Shaq. He was the difference maker. If you need proof of that, look at how wade did in the years between shaq and lebron.

oh cut it out!!!!!!!!

I swear to god you will go to any level no matter how ridiculous it may be to prove your point.. . Stop trying to justify how the knicks do business and I guarantee your argument will actually be reasonable.. come on man, are we going to have a serious debate or not?

Wade was a BEAST, that is why they won.. he averaged 25/5/5 on 50% shooting.. that is why they won... along with some nice calls from the refs, but whatever.. Guy was a monster.. for you to sell shaq as a difference maker is ridiculous

Yes Wade was a beast, but where was he the years after? Shaq was still a top NBA center a 20/10 guy. Superstar. If building around Wade was the answer they wouldn't have struggled to make the playoffs the following years. Not justifying how the Knicks do business, i agree they have made failures. But you make it seem like building thru the draft and rebuilding around young players is the answer, yet is has not worked in many, many years. Why don't you get that? Is it exciting? Yes. You want a Knicks team with young prospects you can be excited about, i get that. But let me know when it produces a championship team.

I am not saying there is just one answer but it is the way that has worked for many, many years....

let me break it down this way... If I am driving a car, obeying all the rules, stop at every stop sign, there is no guarantee I won't get into an accident, but the chances are greatly reduced if I do things a certain way... I mean some drunk idiot can run a stop sign and crash into me.. Now that doesn't mean I should trash driving the right way, but it sure gives me the best chance..

well over the course of history, valuing assets, not giving them away for aging stars, using your draft picks, signing and extending your picks, building around your picks and assets you acquire, young assets has been a way that has worked most of the time in NBA history.. we have posted many examples.... now are there exceptions to the rule.. sure, but why build your team upon the exception? is that really smart to do? You are only supporting this because of how the knicks are going about their business.. and really it doesn't make sense, you know it, but you just want it to be right.. and it doesn't work that way...

but where was he the years after? Shaq was still a top NBA center a 20/10 guy. Superstar.

so you are telling me since 2006 shaq has had a better career than wade?

Ok, I am done.. I'm out... someone please help this guy?

Please????

i would use all 3 tools (draft, fa, trades) to build a team, and i suspect all other teams follow that. some are just better at it then others and also get some luck.

i would not argue that using the draft doesnt work -- a few others pointed out the realities -- crapshoot, luck, etc. however it doesnt mean you shouldnt/wouldnt utilize it. heck, unless you trade the ticket away, you get new ones every year.

for how many guys are drafted as the core of a winner, does it matter? if they have < 50% of the core drafted does that mean the draft as a strategy failed? many winners (all of them!) augment the roster with the other 2 tools...

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:The bottom line +85% of all NBA champions drafted their core players

Im not going to list everyone going back but for example

Pippen Jordan Grant
Isiah Thomas Joe Dumare Bill Laimber
Hakeem
Kobe
Tim Duncan Parker Ginobli
Magic Johnson James Worthy etc
Larry Bird Kevin Mchale Robert Parrish

Go look back--its not even a debate. The draft is the most important process in building your team proven without a doubt

That type of quality is no longer available in the draft. None of those teams you mentioned have been assembled in the past decade. This is a thing of the past. If we were in the 90s I would agree with you, but not today.

NBA Champs past Decade:
Heat - Wade
Mavericks - Nowitzki
Lakers - Kobe
Spurs - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
Pistons - the lone exception, but even then Tayshaun Prince was a starter and key component.

So how is Briggs point wrong???

Again you are talking about players drafted in the 90s and only San Antonio has more than one player drafted that consists of its championship core. A team built around wade does not win a title, he has 2 other players who joined him later on. Nowitzki didn't win until he had the right formula of guys such as Kidd chandler and Marion join via trade. Same with boston. Same with the lakers who only have won with Shaq and gasol. So to Briggs point it is accurate to say that 85% of teams who won drafted a core player but not their core players. Typically only 1/3 of their core consists of drafted player. It's the free agent signing and trades that allow them to win a title. Only exception in the past 15 years in San Antonio where their championship core can be attribute completely to building thru the draft. No one else even has half of their core drafted.

Looking at the following heat roster in 2006 when they won the finals.. please tell me who this team was built around.. and DO NOT SAY SHAQ!!!!

I highlighted the name to help you out there buddy...

G/F 5 Derek Anderson (Kentucky)
G/F 49 Shandon Anderson (University of Georgia)
C 30 Earl Barron (Memphis)
C 51 Michael Doleac (Utah)
SF 24 Jason Kapono (UCLA)
C/PF 33 Alonzo Mourning (Georgetown)
C 32 Shaquille O'Neal – Captain (LSU)
PG 20 Gary Payton (Oregon State)
SF/G 42 James Posey (Xavier (Ohio))
PF 25 Wayne Simien (Kansas)
SG 3 Dwyane Wade – Captain (Marquette)
PG
{Eddie Jones
55 Jason Williams (Florida/Marshall)
SF 1 Dorell Wright (South Kent Prep HS,
Lawndale, California)
F 40 Udonis Haslem (University of Florida)
F 8 Antoine Walker (University of Kentucky)
Chris Anderson N/A

They would not have won the title if it wasn't for Shaq. He was the difference maker. If you need proof of that, look at how wade did in the years between shaq and lebron.

oh cut it out!!!!!!!!

I swear to god you will go to any level no matter how ridiculous it may be to prove your point.. . Stop trying to justify how the knicks do business and I guarantee your argument will actually be reasonable.. come on man, are we going to have a serious debate or not?

Wade was a BEAST, that is why they won.. he averaged 25/5/5 on 50% shooting.. that is why they won... along with some nice calls from the refs, but whatever.. Guy was a monster.. for you to sell shaq as a difference maker is ridiculous

Yes Wade was a beast, but where was he the years after? Shaq was still a top NBA center a 20/10 guy. Superstar. If building around Wade was the answer they wouldn't have struggled to make the playoffs the following years. Not justifying how the Knicks do business, i agree they have made failures. But you make it seem like building thru the draft and rebuilding around young players is the answer, yet is has not worked in many, many years. Why don't you get that? Is it exciting? Yes. You want a Knicks team with young prospects you can be excited about, i get that. But let me know when it produces a championship team.

I am not saying there is just one answer but it is the way that has worked for many, many years....

let me break it down this way... If I am driving a car, obeying all the rules, stop at every stop sign, there is no guarantee I won't get into an accident, but the chances are greatly reduced if I do things a certain way... I mean some drunk idiot can run a stop sign and crash into me.. Now that doesn't mean I should trash driving the right way, but it sure gives me the best chance..

well over the course of history, valuing assets, not giving them away for aging stars, using your draft picks, signing and extending your picks, building around your picks and assets you acquire, young assets has been a way that has worked most of the time in NBA history.. we have posted many examples.... now are there exceptions to the rule.. sure, but why build your team upon the exception? is that really smart to do? You are only supporting this because of how the knicks are going about their business.. and really it doesn't make sense, you know it, but you just want it to be right.. and it doesn't work that way...

but where was he the years after? Shaq was still a top NBA center a 20/10 guy. Superstar.

so you are telling me since 2006 shaq has had a better career than wade?

Ok, I am done.. I'm out... someone please help this guy?

Please????

I'm trying to point out that building this way is NOW THE NORM, NOT THE EXCEPTION. Winning a title around a rebuilding effort is now the exception. Yes you gave me examples, all of which were from the 80s and 90s!!!!! Every other example you posted has yet to win a title. I am not supporting this because of how the Knicks are going about their business. I felt a team built the tradition way that we attempted, around Gallo, Lee, Chandler, Fields was not going anywere. I believe in the way the Heat, Celtics, Mavs, etc built their teams because they won. Spurs are the exception, and you are making them out to be the norm. The draft is a crapshoot and when young talent becomes available via trade it is incredibly hard to have the right assets at the right time to acquire that player. You are simply trying to justify why a team built with Melo vs. Gallo, chandler, and "assets" is not the way to do it, when you have no sustainable proof that the other direction was better. You are trying to prove it is the right way but showing examples from the 80s and 90s. I am showing you examples from right now. Who actually needs the help here in understanding? As long as Melo is on this team, you will try to prove otherwise. Only proof you have left is the unknown factor. Hold your hat on that and maybe someday it will prove you right.

fishmike wrote:Heat, Boston, Mavs, Spurs... Im pretty sure the only team that won a title in the last like 30 years without having a STAR player that was drafted BY THAT TEAM was Larry Brown's Pistons.
Spurs: Duncan
Mavs: Dirk
Heat: Wade
Boston: Pierce
Lakers: Kobe
Bulls: Jordan/Pipp
Rockets: Hakeem

So.... can we put this waste of internet space of a debate to rest?

So yea.. drafting isnt what it used to be. Except every single team that wins titles does so with a star player they drafted.

This isnt a trend. Its pretty much a fact

Yes 1 player. I can agree with that. But with that way of thinking, if Shumpert develops into a star, he can satisfy that simple rule. That is not building thru the draft which we are talking about. Many of the things talks about in this thread are lost in translation, so we will never form a consensus opinion. But if every championship must have one core player that they drafted, then we have Shumpert for that. All that list above tells me is you need stars in their primes to win titles. No star drafted in the past 9 years has won a title however.

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:Heat, Boston, Mavs, Spurs... Im pretty sure the only team that won a title in the last like 30 years without having a STAR player that was drafted BY THAT TEAM was Larry Brown's Pistons.
Spurs: Duncan
Mavs: Dirk
Heat: Wade
Boston: Pierce
Lakers: Kobe
Bulls: Jordan/Pipp
Rockets: Hakeem

So.... can we put this waste of internet space of a debate to rest?

So yea.. drafting isnt what it used to be. Except every single team that wins titles does so with a star player they drafted.

This isnt a trend. Its pretty much a fact

Yes 1 player. I can agree with that. But with that way of thinking, if Shumpert develops into a star, he can satisfy that simple rule. That is not building thru the draft which we are talking about. Many of the things talks about in this thread are lost in translation, so we will never form a consensus opinion. But if every championship must have one core player that they drafted, then we have Shumpert for that. All that list above tells me is you need stars in their primes to win titles. No star drafted in the past 9 years has won a title however.

I like shumpert, but he isn't, so lets stick to reality...

But if every championship must have one core player that they drafted, then we have Shumpert for that.

ok, so we will wait for our ring and really don't want to hear squat about carmelo needing help.. he has a superstar right next to him. I guess he didn't know it...