YOU KNOW WHAT, I ONCE was like GTFOH with rondo leading that celtics team.. yes pierce was GREAT, Garnett a stud, but rondo was like the glue to that team... especially in the following years. It went from the big 3 and rondo, to really Rondo being the best player on that team.. quickly.. you can't take that away from him..

I'll give that to you, I just thought his leadership came post-championship and it was heavily influenced from being out vets like KG, Pierce, and even the oldies they had during that run. Again, you're right, but I just think he was important post-2008 and wasn't a huge factor in 2008.

yes, I do know why kidd didn't win.... the Spurs team was just better.. no reflection on kidd as he was one of the very best players in the league..what he did with that nets team was amazing.. And I am just not talking PG's here.. I mentioned lebron as special players, guys who can lead teams... of course the leader of a team does not have to be a PG.. I never said that.. it can come from anywhere.. still, I don't think we have that at all.. if kidd were 6 years younger and the face of this team, I might change that view.... And no the leader doesn't have to be the best player on the team, but when your team empowers the wrong guys, it makes it hard for anyone else to assume leadership roles...

The Lakers & Spurs teams were more talented, but the Nets did rely on Kidd because no one else could really create their own shots. Kittles was good, not a scoring threat. Van Horn was and is soft. RJ was just blossoming and K-Mart was a recipient of all those Kidd assists. The Lakers and Spurs had a frontcourt that pretty much made Martin very ordinary and no one else stepped up. I agree, nothing against Kidd, but he couldn't lead them by himself.

Now we don't really know who the true leaders are on the team until we actually get to see the team in practice and the locker room every day. Everyone would think Melo, but maybe it's not really him. I don't know who the leaders and it is to be determined later whether this team has good leadership. Too early to tell.

you do realize that without jordan the bulls were close advancing again, if not for the gift we got on that hubert Davis foul...And yes defenses focus on Jordan, don't fool yourself, no one is doubling carmelo for a final shot, it hasn't happened in the playoffs, teams have been going at him straight up with guys like battier.. even then, jordan passed to those guys because they were capable, and he knew it was the right thing to do.... if there were two scottie pippens on that team, I would certainly believe they could muster a good shot with two talented players like that... with that said.. we don't have a jordan... or a pippen for that matter..

Take Phil Jackson off that team and the Bulls would be a first round exit, if even. I think double teaming scorers especially come playoff is not as frequent as I thought it was just because of the inherent risks with doing it. Maybe it's just my thinking, I don't know. Yes, no team will need to double Melo. And yes, Melo's weakness is against tougher defenders, I'll agree. And obviously we don't have a Jordan or Pippen either, but I can say Melo and Amare are two good players.

this is where we differ.. and I will say this being a huge amare fan.. he is a finisher, and Dk mentioned this long ago, amare needs to be a better passer and play maker for others in order for the knicks to go to another level, he said this before the carmelo trade.. now in carmelo we have the similar problem.. he is not a playmaker, he doesn't make plays for others.. the other guys you mentioned.. parker, manu, wade, shaq, all were play makers.. huge difference... I just think you guys are expecting something out of carmelo that he has never been in 10 years and hasn't shown any consistent behavior in changing that... but again, we just dissagree here.... as far as guys who can make big shots.. kidd has proven he can, but he is aging and declining.. lets hope he has some big shots left in him... novak, jr, felton, they have to prove they can... we will see, I will give you that.. It remains to be seen..... not saying it can't, they just don't have that track record at this point.. but that can change.... I will say that guys like novak and to some degree felton have never really been given that type of chance...

Amare DOES need to be a better playmaker I agree. The thing is Carmelo CAN be a playmaker when he wants. He just needs to make better decisions on when to pass the ball and when to shoot. Now if you and I want to go into his brain and make him think that way, I'm down for that, but I'll agree to an extent. Parker, Manu, & Wade are playmakers because it is essentially required for them at their positions. It's in their innate abilities.

I'll end my thoughts with saying that we agree and we disagree at the same time. Done deal. Agree with this?

vdfebduderocks wrote:

Take Phil Jackson off that team and the Bulls would be a first round exit, if even. I think double teaming scorers especially come playoff is not as frequent as I thought it was just because of the inherent risks with doing it. Maybe it's just my thinking, I don't know. Yes, no team will need to double Melo. And yes, Melo's weakness is against tougher defenders, I'll agree. And obviously we don't have a Jordan or Pippen either, but I can say Melo and Amare are two good players.

before jackson (doug collins), they made it to the ecf finals and lost in 6 games against the pistons. next year with jackson, they lost to the pistons in the ecf finals in 7 games. i would say as jordan/pippen got better, they probably could have won with many coaches.

it will be interesting to see where the knicks end up being seeded and if they can make the ecf.

AnubisADL wrote:

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:We are just seeing the Tyson Chandler from New Orleans.

No one on this team is untouchable except Melo.

let me ask you this question... lets say we can work a three way deal in which we can get a guy like rondo and move carmelo to another team.. Yes rondo is out for the year, but look at the long term prospects.. would you not make that move? I sure as hell would.. i would make that move, try to get some kind of pick in the deal and run with the team we have.....

I would keep chandler, and get another big body to reduce his minutes... just imagine rondo playing with a big like chandler and amare who can finish around the rim at a high percentage rate.. and novak will actually get open looks from pushing the ball...

Trade Melo?

Melo isnt going anywhere but you dont trade him for freaking Rondo.

Something like Aldridge and Lilliard or Dwight Howard. Otherwise you hang up the phone.

Extend Melo without a no trade clause. Get Kyrie Irving once he threatens to bolt Cleveland

sidsanders wrote:

vdfebduderocks wrote:

Take Phil Jackson off that team and the Bulls would be a first round exit, if even. I think double teaming scorers especially come playoff is not as frequent as I thought it was just because of the inherent risks with doing it. Maybe it's just my thinking, I don't know. Yes, no team will need to double Melo. And yes, Melo's weakness is against tougher defenders, I'll agree. And obviously we don't have a Jordan or Pippen either, but I can say Melo and Amare are two good players.

before jackson (doug collins), they made it to the ecf finals and lost in 6 games against the pistons. next year with jackson, they lost to the pistons in the ecf finals in 7 games. i would say as jordan/pippen got better, they probably could have won with many coaches.

it will be interesting to see where the knicks end up being seeded and if they can make the ecf.

I think, now maybe I am wrong, but I think he may be talking about the year jordan was retired and pippen was the man on that team..

StarksEwing1 wrote:I think playing both novak and stat hurts us defensively. I like Novak but he is pretty much a waste this year. Also Melo needs to get teh defensive intensity back that he had in november

know what u mean
however recently i disagree since Stout D'has slightly improved in game spots and at Amare worst he hasnt been no worst than
the other 6-7 knicks guys on roster whom dont play D' this month of January including Melo.

As far as Novac I like him alot but he's a waste and there are other things STOUT does at times on such as BLOCK shots
or put backs on offense which a knick fan has to love in Amare's effort.

Novac cant get his own shot, does nothing zip on the boards
cant even guard a guard OR SF under 6'6 and he seems defeated when he cant get his sweet spot for 3's when those 3s are working
for Steve.

He's disappointing & I'd turn him lose for right trade at deadline ..if a deal helps the Knicks depth OR some other need
such as rebounding.