dk7th wrote:i know what i am seeing and i haven't seen a solid offensive team except for the first 7 games and the game last night against an undermanned and overmatched magic squad. something to build on for sure but nothing to get excited about.

You're seeing nothing but negativity. That's what you're seeing. My post below will expose you for what you are and/or what your intensions have been as a poster. I'll let the post explain what I'm currently talking about.

So, you've only seen 8 good offensive games this season ala first 7 and last night's game? Right. You've only seen 8 good offensive performances this season. That's nice to know.

And just so you know, before I break these nightly numbers down, no NBA team shoots anything over .489 from the field. And outside of the Knicks only one team averages fewer than 12.9 turnovers per game. Last but not least, only six teams average over 100.9 points per game. But yet, you've only seen 8 good offensive games? Nice to know.

102 points against New Orleans with a 44.6 FG% and only 10 turnovers wasn't good?
121 points against Detroit with a 48.1 FG% and only 11 turnovers wasn't good?
102 points against the Bucks with a 47.9 FG% and 14 turnovers wasn't good?
108 points against the Wizards with a 53.1 FG% and only 8 turnovers wasn't good?
106 points against the Suns with a 44.4 FG% and only 7 turnovers wasn't good?
100 points against the Bobcats with a 42.4 FG% and only 8 turnovers wasn't good?
112 points against the Heat with a 45.1 FG% and only 7 turnovers wasn't good?
112 points against the Nuggets with a 43.0 FG% and only 9 turnovers wasn't good?
100 points against the Nets with a 46.2 FG% and only 10 turnovers wasn't good?
114 points against the Magic with a 47.4 FG% and only 8 turnovers wasn't good?
100 points against the Hornets with a 43.2 FG% and only 9 turnovers wasn't good?
106 points against the Hawks with a 54.2 FG% and 14 turnovers wasn't good?

You've "only seen" 8 good offensive performances from our Knicks this season? I'm sorry for you yourself personally, if that's the way you feel.

Now games against Chicago putting up only 85 points, 32.1 FG% and 15 turnovers wasn't good.
89 points against the Nets, 38.8 FG% and 14 turnovers wasn't good.
76 points against the Pacers, 34.8 FG% and 12 turnovers wasn't good.
85 points against the Nets, 40.5 FG% and 5 turnovers wasn't good.
80 points against the 76ers, 34.6 FG% and 16 turnovers wasn't good.

No, those games weren't good offensive production.

But to sit here and state that you've only seen 8 good offensive performances (all season long) just goes to show that A.) You haven't watched many Knick games this season. B.) Nothing is ever good enough for you or C.) Extreme cluelessness in regards to how you watch a game followed by how you then post upon it.

I also found a hypocritical flaw in regards to whatever your agenda may be when stating "I haven't seen a solid offensive team except for the first 7 games and the game last night against an undermanned and overmatched magic squad".

So, you stated that you haven't seen a solid offensive game outside of our first 7 games along with our last game? That's nice to know and it's also pretty funny because during 5 out of our first 7 games (our so called only good offensive games) we only put up offensive numbers such as...

(Keep in mind, no team averages less than 18.8 assists per game).

104 points against the heat with a 42.9 FG% with 12 turnovers.
100 points against the 76ers with a 50.6 FG% with 14 turnovers. Only 18 assists.
104 points against the Mavericks with a 41.7 FG% with 9 turnovers. Only 17 assists.
99 points against the Magic with a 48.8 FG% with 9 turnovers. Only 15 assists.
95 points against the Grizzlies with a 51.4 FG% with 13 turnovers. Only 18 assists.

So, let's get this right. You only seen positive/good offensive team play during those games above (5 of our first 7), but yet you haven't seen any good during games such as...

102 points against New Orleans with a 44.6 FG% and only 10 turnovers wasn't good?
121 points against Detroit with a 48.1 FG% and only 11 turnovers wasn't good?
102 points against the Bucks with a 47.9 FG% and 14 turnovers wasn't good?
108 points against the Wizards with a 53.1 FG% and only 8 turnovers wasn't good?
106 points against the Suns with a 44.4 FG% and only 7 turnovers wasn't good?
100 points against the Bobcats with a 42.4 FG% and only 8 turnovers wasn't good?
112 points against the Heat with a 45.1 FG% and only 7 turnovers wasn't good?
112 points against the Nuggets with a 43.0 FG% and only 9 turnovers wasn't good?
100 points against the Nets with a 46.2 FG% and only 10 turnovers wasn't good?
114 points against the Magic with a 47.4 FG% and only 8 turnovers wasn't good?
100 points against the Hornets with a 43.2 FG% and only 9 turnovers wasn't good?
106 points against the Hawks with a 54.2 FG% and 14 turnovers wasn't good?

This is becoming hilarious. I'm really starting to think, feel and believe that you only make negative remarks, comments and/or post's just for the sake of making negative remarks, comments and/or post's. Because what you just stated, with your post above, made absolutely no sense what so ever. Of any kind either. You completely contradicted yourself in a hypocritical way without even knowingly doing so.

How was a 104 point performance against the heat with a 42.9 FG% with 12 turnovers considered a good offensive team performance in your eyes, but 108 points against the Wizards with a 53.1 FG% and only 8 turnovers not considered anything other than a good offensive team performance? How was a 104 point performance against the Mavericks with a 41.7 FG% with 9 turnovers considered to be a good offensive team performance in your eyes, but 114 points against the Magic with a 47.4 FG% and only 8 turnovers not considered good in your eyes?

Because let's face it. You yourself personally just sat here and stated that outside of our first 7 games along with last night's game against Orlando, that you haven't seen a single solid offensive team except for "the first 7 games and the game last night against an undermanned and overmatched magic squad". Followed by stating "something to build on for sure but nothing to get excited about".

Pretty weird but yet funny at the same time...

dk7th wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

VCoug wrote:
Definitely. He was able to free associate a discussion about Felton and his shot selection and make it seem like I was bashing Melo. I am truly impressed.

dk7th wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:JR 39.5%
Felton 39.3%

Felton is a point guard. He excels in the PnR. More important than comparing shooting stats with a chucker like JR

the ratio of felton's usage rate to assist rate strongly suggest he is more a shooting guard than a point guard. since that is the case, comparing both he and smith as shooters is perfectly reasonable.

it's going to be very tough for the knicks to win if they shoot 40% and neither gets to the line more than 2 or 3 times a game.

felton's fga to fta ratio is a ludicrous 8:1
smith's fga to fta ratio is an unacceptable 4.6:1
melo's fga to fta ratio is an borderline unacceptable 2.95:1

VCoug, you were saying?

your preemptive posts predicting other posters coming up with certain observations and statistics that run counter to your beliefs is in vain. is that what happens when you can't construct a persuasive argument to counter what has been brought to bear?

i didn't trash melo by the way-- the important stats for him have always been borderline and questionable, be they FG% or TS% or usg/ast ratio.

46%FG is borderline for his career
55%TS is borderline for his career
1.94:1 usg/ast is fine but this season it is 2.50:1 which is too high for a team game.

but all i intend to say here with these statistics is that carmelo anthony is overrated by many among the knick faithful. that is not trashing the guy. but he is not as good as you believe him to be if we are agreed that the goal is to make a strong showing in the ECF... let alone a finals appearance or title.

sorry pal - why even bother watching the Knicks? How about you rank where Melo is at among players in Knicks history? You get preemptive posts because most of us realize that you and the other stats geeks will start playing slap ass and tummy sticks with each other about how inefficient Melo is, yet bury your head in the sand over how efficient the Knicks team offense - as a whole - is.

i watch the knicks for the same reason i watch the giants and the yankees. comes with the territory of being a new york city native. in a city of 10 million you're bound to have a spectrum of opinions and my opinion differs from yours apparently. why make a fuss about that?

melo barely breaks the top 10.

frazier is at the top and seeing is believing.
debuscherre
reed
bradley
barnett

each player here was an important part of our two titles. winning has to count for something.

then monroe and lucas were instrumental in the second of our lone titles.

then ewing is next.

then bernard king. king made it to the second round each year he was healthy.

melo comes after these until he actually wins something of significance in a knick uniform.

"stat geeks" is an ad hominem attack meant to minimize the value of my contributions. i like math and i like words. doesn't mean i am a geek.

this team is not good offensively yet. offensive efficiency merely measures how many points are scored per 100 possessions. BFD. it's not a good indicator of how playoff-ready this team is, which is all i really give a **** about truth be told. y'all can go ahead and diddle over these irrelevancies all you want. i know what i am seeing and i haven't seen a solid offensive team except for the first 7 games and the game last night against an undermanned and overmatched magic squad. something to build on for sure but nothing to get excited about.

I think the Subsequent posts by ChuckBuck and NYKMentality have summed up your view perfectly. You flat out cherry pick with stats fit your need(s). Greats stats people understand the concept of *context*. Your analysis could not be more far from objective

Now let's say for sake of discussion that I agree with your assessment that "Melo barely breaks the top ten". Think about that for a second. How many players on your list are from the 1969-70 and 1972-73 championship years? Bernard King and Ewing are outside of that... and Melo is the only player since Ewing? Do you have any grasp of historical context and how ****ing difficult it is to have a player of Carmelo Anthony's ability?

But, hey, you've got some numbers right?

And to answer your question about "why make a fuss about it?" The other thing you stat-hatters fail to grasp is this is a public forum. When y'all keep eroding the quality of the forum by taking your *opinion* and stapling stats to it, and purporting your *opinion* as fact, even though most people that are watching the games know you are off your collective rockers, I feel the need to point out the fact that you people who would rather be right than enjoy than enjoy the single best season the Knicks have had since 1993-94. I do so in hopes that maybe that saves the forum from you and people like you

NYKMentality wrote:

dk7th wrote:i know what i am seeing and i haven't seen a solid offensive team except for the first 7 games and the game last night against an undermanned and overmatched magic squad. something to build on for sure but nothing to get excited about.

You're seeing nothing but negativity. That's what you're seeing. My post below will expose you for what you are and/or what your intensions have been as a poster. I'll let the post explain what I'm currently talking about.

So, you've only seen 8 good offensive games this season ala first 7 and last night's game? Right. You've only seen 8 good offensive performances this season. That's nice to know.

And just so you know, before I break these nightly numbers down, no NBA team shoots anything over .489 from the field. And outside of the Knicks only one team averages fewer than 12.9 turnovers per game. Last but not least, only six teams average over 100.9 points per game. But yet, you've only seen 8 good offensive games? Nice to know.

102 points against New Orleans with a 44.6 FG% and only 10 turnovers wasn't good?
121 points against Detroit with a 48.1 FG% and only 11 turnovers wasn't good?
102 points against the Bucks with a 47.9 FG% and 14 turnovers wasn't good?
108 points against the Wizards with a 53.1 FG% and only 8 turnovers wasn't good?
106 points against the Suns with a 44.4 FG% and only 7 turnovers wasn't good?
100 points against the Bobcats with a 42.4 FG% and only 8 turnovers wasn't good?
112 points against the Heat with a 45.1 FG% and only 7 turnovers wasn't good?
112 points against the Nuggets with a 43.0 FG% and only 9 turnovers wasn't good?
100 points against the Nets with a 46.2 FG% and only 10 turnovers wasn't good?
114 points against the Magic with a 47.4 FG% and only 8 turnovers wasn't good?
100 points against the Hornets with a 43.2 FG% and only 9 turnovers wasn't good?
106 points against the Hawks with a 54.2 FG% and 14 turnovers wasn't good?

You've "only seen" 8 good offensive performances from our Knicks this season? I'm sorry for you yourself personally, if that's the way you feel.

Now games against Chicago putting up only 85 points, 32.1 FG% and 15 turnovers wasn't good.
89 points against the Nets, 38.8 FG% and 14 turnovers wasn't good.
76 points against the Pacers, 34.8 FG% and 12 turnovers wasn't good.
85 points against the Nets, 40.5 FG% and 5 turnovers wasn't good.
80 points against the 76ers, 34.6 FG% and 16 turnovers wasn't good.

No, those games weren't good offensive production.

But to sit here and state that you've only seen 8 good offensive performances (all season long) just goes to show that A.) You haven't watched many Knick games this season. B.) Nothing is ever good enough for you or C.) Extreme cluelessness in regards to how you watch a game followed by how you then post upon it.

I also found a hypocritical flaw in regards to whatever your agenda may be when stating "I haven't seen a solid offensive team except for the first 7 games and the game last night against an undermanned and overmatched magic squad".

So, you stated that you haven't seen a solid offensive game outside of our first 7 games along with our last game? That's nice to know and it's also pretty funny because during 5 out of our first 7 games (our so called only good offensive games) we only put up offensive numbers such as...

(Keep in mind, no team averages less than 18.8 assists per game).

104 points against the heat with a 42.9 FG% with 12 turnovers.
100 points against the 76ers with a 50.6 FG% with 14 turnovers. Only 18 assists.
104 points against the Mavericks with a 41.7 FG% with 9 turnovers. Only 17 assists.
99 points against the Magic with a 48.8 FG% with 9 turnovers. Only 15 assists.
95 points against the Grizzlies with a 51.4 FG% with 13 turnovers. Only 18 assists.

So, let's get this right. You only seen positive/good offensive team play during those games above (5 of our first 7), but yet you haven't seen any good during games such as...

102 points against New Orleans with a 44.6 FG% and only 10 turnovers wasn't good?
121 points against Detroit with a 48.1 FG% and only 11 turnovers wasn't good?
102 points against the Bucks with a 47.9 FG% and 14 turnovers wasn't good?
108 points against the Wizards with a 53.1 FG% and only 8 turnovers wasn't good?
106 points against the Suns with a 44.4 FG% and only 7 turnovers wasn't good?
100 points against the Bobcats with a 42.4 FG% and only 8 turnovers wasn't good?
112 points against the Heat with a 45.1 FG% and only 7 turnovers wasn't good?
112 points against the Nuggets with a 43.0 FG% and only 9 turnovers wasn't good?
100 points against the Nets with a 46.2 FG% and only 10 turnovers wasn't good?
114 points against the Magic with a 47.4 FG% and only 8 turnovers wasn't good?
100 points against the Hornets with a 43.2 FG% and only 9 turnovers wasn't good?
106 points against the Hawks with a 54.2 FG% and 14 turnovers wasn't good?

This is becoming hilarious. I'm really starting to think, feel and believe that you only make negative remarks, comments and/or post's just for the sake of making negative remarks, comments and/or post's. Because what you just stated, with your post above, made absolutely no sense what so ever. Of any kind either. You completely contradicted yourself in a hypocritical way without even knowingly doing so.

How was a 104 point performance against the heat with a 42.9 FG% with 12 turnovers considered a good offensive team performance in your eyes, but 108 points against the Wizards with a 53.1 FG% and only 8 turnovers not considered anything other than a good offensive team performance? How was a 104 point performance against the Mavericks with a 41.7 FG% with 9 turnovers considered to be a good offensive team performance in your eyes, but 114 points against the Magic with a 47.4 FG% and only 8 turnovers not considered good in your eyes?

Because let's face it. You yourself personally just sat here and stated that outside of our first 7 games along with last night's game against Orlando, that you haven't seen a single solid offensive team except for "the first 7 games and the game last night against an undermanned and overmatched magic squad". Followed by stating "something to build on for sure but nothing to get excited about".

Pretty weird but yet funny at the same time...

Bumping up for the person (dk7th) who makes negative remarks (for the sake of being negative) followed by hiding under a rock once being exposed due to contradicting himself.

Andrew wrote:NYKMentality, is bumping something up to "expose" someone really necessary? You and others, are making the situation much worse by constantly arguing the same thing. Please make this a better place by not overdoing it or kindly use the ignore feature.

fair enough... I promise to sit this one out from here on out but I would like to refer to you a post Marv - possibly my favorite poster of the years - made a while ago, and I don't believe things have improved since he wrote this:

Marv wrote:Dayum.

Killa nailing it.

Yeah I rue the loss of this board. I used to love this place. We hung there in there for years with the sorriest squads. And consoled each other with crazy laughs over our ineptitude. But we did it as insiders, all sharing the pain.

I checked out after game 2 against boston. I understood the strong mixed feelings after the trade. You don’t have an owner overrule a gm like that, it’s just not a right move, especially with the dolan dynamics. Ok, i gave everyone the rest of the regular season to rant. It’s natural.

But damn, then the playoff s arrived. The f’g playoffs. All for one and one for all. I live for the playoffs. And it had been YEARS.

I watched game 2 at a bar with panos and eny. One of the greatest games I’ve ever witnessed. History made. With no one helping – unless you consider rony and jj2 to be help ;-) – carmelo put up 42, 16 and 7 and came within one possession of bringing the #8 back against the #1 on their court. I’ve never been happier with a player representing my team in a loss than in that game. Came home that night, couldn’t wait to get on the board to share tote love – and damn! Cats were crushing melo, the trade, the team, the whole thing. Now?? F’g now?? After an epic undermanned playoff effort?? Just got too butt-hurt that night. That was like some sick disloyalty to your own team, what you should be standing up for. couldn’t figure that **** out, just felt like it was sad. and moved on.

Nowadays I got my cats that I chill with from the board, and still love the old-timers uk get-togethers. That **** self-selects for the knick-heads. And I end up on an impromptu bicoastal game thread with sebstar almost every game. We’re both insane for this team and loving the f’g **** out of it . My personal mvp is mike woodson. I love that guy and I think he’s a finally the guy we’ve needed here for a long-ass time.

All right be good guys and enjoy the big game tonight. rematch time – camby getting revenge on duncan for ’99!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/post.asp?m=q&r=1005670&t=43214&page=2

SupremeCommander wrote:

Andrew wrote:NYKMentality, is bumping something up to "expose" someone really necessary? You and others, are making the situation much worse by constantly arguing the same thing. Please make this a better place by not overdoing it or kindly use the ignore feature.

fair enough... I promise to sit this one out from here on out but I would like to refer to you a post Marv - possibly my favorite poster of the years - made a while ago, and I don't believe things have improved since he wrote this:

Marv wrote:Dayum.

Killa nailing it.

Yeah I rue the loss of this board. I used to love this place. We hung there in there for years with the sorriest squads. And consoled each other with crazy laughs over our ineptitude. But we did it as insiders, all sharing the pain.

I checked out after game 2 against boston. I understood the strong mixed feelings after the trade. You don’t have an owner overrule a gm like that, it’s just not a right move, especially with the dolan dynamics. Ok, i gave everyone the rest of the regular season to rant. It’s natural.

But damn, then the playoff s arrived. The f’g playoffs. All for one and one for all. I live for the playoffs. And it had been YEARS.

I watched game 2 at a bar with panos and eny. One of the greatest games I’ve ever witnessed. History made. With no one helping – unless you consider rony and jj2 to be help ;-) – carmelo put up 42, 16 and 7 and came within one possession of bringing the #8 back against the #1 on their court. I’ve never been happier with a player representing my team in a loss than in that game. Came home that night, couldn’t wait to get on the board to share tote love – and damn! Cats were crushing melo, the trade, the team, the whole thing. Now?? F’g now?? After an epic undermanned playoff effort?? Just got too butt-hurt that night. That was like some sick disloyalty to your own team, what you should be standing up for. couldn’t figure that **** out, just felt like it was sad. and moved on.

Nowadays I got my cats that I chill with from the board, and still love the old-timers uk get-togethers. That **** self-selects for the knick-heads. And I end up on an impromptu bicoastal game thread with sebstar almost every game. We’re both insane for this team and loving the f’g **** out of it . My personal mvp is mike woodson. I love that guy and I think he’s a finally the guy we’ve needed here for a long-ass time.

All right be good guys and enjoy the big game tonight. rematch time – camby getting revenge on duncan for ’99!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/post.asp?m=q&r=1005670&t=43214&page=2

Wow, thanks for sharing Marv's post. I can truly relate because I've been trying to point out the same things (though less eloquently)