Nalod wrote:Durant got a trip to the finals and MVP for season.

Two things Melo don't have. Lets see how Durant follows up to finals trips. Return? Or First round bounce.
Lets get them both on the floor for the finals and let them settle it on the court!

Is saying durant is better an insult to Melo?

No, Kevin Duran also has several NBA scoring titles and is on pace to become just the sixth NBA player in the NBA history to shoot 50 percent from the field, 40 percent from three-point range and 90 percent from the free-throw line for an entire season. KD is not just a great scorer, but one of the most efficient scorers ever.

NYDiva wrote:This reminds me a bit of the Ewing vs Olajuwon in the '90s. At the time, folks didn't realize how much better the Dream was til the Rockets beat the Knicks in the '94 Finals. I would like for this not to end the same way, honestly.

As a basketball savant, I've not seen a small forward in my generation with the offensive skillset Melo has. Kobe has said he's the most difficult player to guard in the NBA, and he's right. He has a low-post game, he's strong and can pound the ball inside. He's got a deadly mid-range game. He can take you outside, with that high arcing beauty of a shot. He can play with his back to the basket, BETTER than LeBron and Durant. He's got a wonderfully fluid first step, he can spin, he can glide, he can make the game seem like it's going in slow motion.

But, he takes bad shots. He's streaky & inconsistent. He plays the game sometimes as if he's on the playground at Rucker, going one-on-one, instead of part of a team game. It's like he's JUST learning this season to trust his teammates and to play within a team concept.

I would LOVE to say he was better than Durant. I am a DIEHARD Knick fan. I love Carmelo and supported the trade, although I hated to see Gallo & Felton go.

But, I've got to speak on what I see about this player. He's got to shake off pretty much how he's played basketball his entire life to become the transcendent player that he absolutely CAN be. That Durant and LeBron are.

Excellent post, although the "Durant the trancendent" is, as has been stated, away bit over the top!

Excellent analysis of what it's like to watch Melo get to the rim. In several games, it seems like whoever's guarding him just got wheeled in off the geriatric floor.

Probably lends credence to the Carlony haters who express that his game is alot like watching grass grow during the Middle Ages.

I like it!

KnicksFE wrote:

NYDiva wrote:This reminds me a bit of the Ewing vs Olajuwon in the '90s. At the time, folks didn't realize how much better the Dream was til the Rockets beat the Knicks in the '94 Finals. I would like for this not to end the same way, honestly.

As a basketball savant, I've not seen a small forward in my generation with the offensive skillset Melo has. Kobe has said he's the most difficult player to guard in the NBA, and he's right.
He has a low-post game, he's strong and can pound the ball inside. He's got a deadly mid-range game. He can take you outside, with that high arcing beauty of a shot. He can play with his back to the basket, BETTER than LeBron and Durant. He's got a wonderfully fluid first step, he can spin, he can glide, he can make the game seem like it's going in slow motion.

But, he takes bad shots. He's streaky & inconsistent. He plays the game sometimes as if he's on the playground at Rucker, going one-on-one, instead of part of a team game. It's like he's JUST learning this season to trust his teammates and to play within a team concept.

I would LOVE to say he was better than Durant. I am a DIEHARD Knick fan. I love Carmelo and supported the trade, although I hated to see Gallo & Felton go.

But, I've got to speak on what I see about this player. He's got to shake off pretty much how he's played basketball his entire life to become the transcendent player that he absolutely CAN be. That Durant and LeBron are.

While Melo is definitely one of the most difficult players to guard in the NBA, I think Dirk Nowitski is the most difficult player to guard of the last decade, considering that the NBA has never seen anything like him before, he is/was very unique as a player and deadly.

I also keep hearing about his "low post game".. I don't think he has a low post game.. He post high and often faces up the defender.. he doesn't have a real post move? no spins, up and unders, drop steps or even a jump hook. I think the post game and carmelo is just so overblown.... now he will try to back down a smaller defender to get closer, but honestly that is no different than most guys who have a size advantage and really no post game... I would not call what he does a post game... Posting up to receive the ball is not having a post game, and He does this simply because he doesn't want to move without the ball to get his shot.. he much rather post up and face the defender... which he does more often than make actual post moves..

tkf wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

NYDiva wrote:This reminds me a bit of the Ewing vs Olajuwon in the '90s. At the time, folks didn't realize how much better the Dream was til the Rockets beat the Knicks in the '94 Finals. I would like for this not to end the same way, honestly.

As a basketball savant, I've not seen a small forward in my generation with the offensive skillset Melo has. Kobe has said he's the most difficult player to guard in the NBA, and he's right.
He has a low-post game, he's strong and can pound the ball inside. He's got a deadly mid-range game. He can take you outside, with that high arcing beauty of a shot. He can play with his back to the basket, BETTER than LeBron and Durant. He's got a wonderfully fluid first step, he can spin, he can glide, he can make the game seem like it's going in slow motion.

But, he takes bad shots. He's streaky & inconsistent. He plays the game sometimes as if he's on the playground at Rucker, going one-on-one, instead of part of a team game. It's like he's JUST learning this season to trust his teammates and to play within a team concept.

I would LOVE to say he was better than Durant. I am a DIEHARD Knick fan. I love Carmelo and supported the trade, although I hated to see Gallo & Felton go.

But, I've got to speak on what I see about this player. He's got to shake off pretty much how he's played basketball his entire life to become the transcendent player that he absolutely CAN be. That Durant and LeBron are.

While Melo is definitely one of the most difficult players to guard in the NBA, I think Dirk Nowitski is the most difficult player to guard of the last decade, considering that the NBA has never seen anything like him before, he is/was very unique as a player and deadly.

I also keep hearing about his "low post game".. I don't think he has a low post game.. He post high and often faces up the defender.. he doesn't have a real post move? no spins, up and unders, drop steps or even a jump hook. I think the post game and carmelo is just so overblown.... now he will try to back down a smaller defender to get closer, but honestly that is no different than most guys who have a size advantage and really no post game... I would not call what he does a post game... Posting up to receive the ball is not having a post game, and He does this simply because he doesn't want to move without the ball to get his shot.. he much rather post up and face the defender... which he does more often than make actual post moves..

The post game of players to day on the low block features backing defenders down and using their quickness to either spin around them which is Melo's patented move, which is a post skill, or suck in defenders which Melo and LeBron do and kick it out to shooters or repost to do the same thing.

Even Kobe has a post game, although that isn't his preference, but over the years we've seen it.

The post game today is reinvented, no need to be stuck in the past, NBA players today are gonna spend the time to develop that when they can just face up and get the same points.

I never understood why fans put so much attention into the post game, these guys today can flat out score, and with weak defensive rules now, why turn your back when the opponent isn't allowed to play defense now? Just face up and shoot and drive.

But the true purpose of a post move is to use your body to get your shot, which is something that Melo does, therefore he has a post game.

But watch this player, even he has a "post game"....and according to synergy, he's been used in that capacity for years.

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

NYDiva wrote:This reminds me a bit of the Ewing vs Olajuwon in the '90s. At the time, folks didn't realize how much better the Dream was til the Rockets beat the Knicks in the '94 Finals. I would like for this not to end the same way, honestly.

As a basketball savant, I've not seen a small forward in my generation with the offensive skillset Melo has. Kobe has said he's the most difficult player to guard in the NBA, and he's right.
He has a low-post game, he's strong and can pound the ball inside. He's got a deadly mid-range game. He can take you outside, with that high arcing beauty of a shot. He can play with his back to the basket, BETTER than LeBron and Durant. He's got a wonderfully fluid first step, he can spin, he can glide, he can make the game seem like it's going in slow motion.

But, he takes bad shots. He's streaky & inconsistent. He plays the game sometimes as if he's on the playground at Rucker, going one-on-one, instead of part of a team game. It's like he's JUST learning this season to trust his teammates and to play within a team concept.

I would LOVE to say he was better than Durant. I am a DIEHARD Knick fan. I love Carmelo and supported the trade, although I hated to see Gallo & Felton go.

But, I've got to speak on what I see about this player. He's got to shake off pretty much how he's played basketball his entire life to become the transcendent player that he absolutely CAN be. That Durant and LeBron are.

While Melo is definitely one of the most difficult players to guard in the NBA, I think Dirk Nowitski is the most difficult player to guard of the last decade, considering that the NBA has never seen anything like him before, he is/was very unique as a player and deadly.

I also keep hearing about his "low post game".. I don't think he has a low post game.. He post high and often faces up the defender.. he doesn't have a real post move? no spins, up and unders, drop steps or even a jump hook. I think the post game and carmelo is just so overblown.... now he will try to back down a smaller defender to get closer, but honestly that is no different than most guys who have a size advantage and really no post game... I would not call what he does a post game... Posting up to receive the ball is not having a post game, and He does this simply because he doesn't want to move without the ball to get his shot.. he much rather post up and face the defender... which he does more often than make actual post moves..

Good point. He's no Larry Johnson spinning and changing direction in the post

Personally, I think Al Jefferson from Utah has arguably the best low post game in the NBA today, that guy really knows how to move around the basket.

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

NYDiva wrote:This reminds me a bit of the Ewing vs Olajuwon in the '90s. At the time, folks didn't realize how much better the Dream was til the Rockets beat the Knicks in the '94 Finals. I would like for this not to end the same way, honestly.

As a basketball savant, I've not seen a small forward in my generation with the offensive skillset Melo has. Kobe has said he's the most difficult player to guard in the NBA, and he's right.
He has a low-post game, he's strong and can pound the ball inside. He's got a deadly mid-range game. He can take you outside, with that high arcing beauty of a shot. He can play with his back to the basket, BETTER than LeBron and Durant. He's got a wonderfully fluid first step, he can spin, he can glide, he can make the game seem like it's going in slow motion.

But, he takes bad shots. He's streaky & inconsistent. He plays the game sometimes as if he's on the playground at Rucker, going one-on-one, instead of part of a team game. It's like he's JUST learning this season to trust his teammates and to play within a team concept.

I would LOVE to say he was better than Durant. I am a DIEHARD Knick fan. I love Carmelo and supported the trade, although I hated to see Gallo & Felton go.

But, I've got to speak on what I see about this player. He's got to shake off pretty much how he's played basketball his entire life to become the transcendent player that he absolutely CAN be. That Durant and LeBron are.

While Melo is definitely one of the most difficult players to guard in the NBA, I think Dirk Nowitski is the most difficult player to guard of the last decade, considering that the NBA has never seen anything like him before, he is/was very unique as a player and deadly.

I also keep hearing about his "low post game".. I don't think he has a low post game.. He post high and often faces up the defender.. he doesn't have a real post move? no spins, up and unders, drop steps or even a jump hook. I think the post game and carmelo is just so overblown.... now he will try to back down a smaller defender to get closer, but honestly that is no different than most guys who have a size advantage and really no post game... I would not call what he does a post game... Posting up to receive the ball is not having a post game, and He does this simply because he doesn't want to move without the ball to get his shot.. he much rather post up and face the defender... which he does more often than make actual post moves..

There are very few post up players today in the traditional sense, they Lakers have imo the best in Pau, and had a solid one in Bynum.

The post game of players to day on the low block features backing defenders down and using their quickness to either spin around them which is Melo's patented move, which is a post skill, or suck in defenders which Melo and LeBron do and kick it out to shooters or repost to do the same thing.

Even Kobe has a post game, although that isn't his preference, but over the years we've seen it.

The post game today is reinvented, no need to be stuck in the past, NBA players today are gonna spend the time to develop that when they can just face up and get the same points.

I never understood why fans put so much attention into the post game, these guys today can flat out score, and with weak defensive rules now, why turn your back when the opponent isn't allowed to play defense now? Just face up and shoot and drive.

But the true purpose of a post move is to use your body to get your shot, which is something that Melo does, therefore he has a post game.

But watch this player, even he has a "post game"....and according to synergy, he's been used in that capacity for years.

YEA, i just think that is a bit misleading... and you often find people using that to give a player an advantage by saying he has a "post game", when he really doesn't.. but I do agree that guys are posting up today for various reasons.. for example, guys like joe johnson and carmelo will post up just for positioning to get the ball, and then go into their move.. For carmelo especially this is what he does, he likes a certain spot on the floor, so he post up to make sure he will get the ball in that area, and then often, faces to make another move... just like westbrook did in the first move in your video..

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

NYDiva wrote:This reminds me a bit of the Ewing vs Olajuwon in the '90s. At the time, folks didn't realize how much better the Dream was til the Rockets beat the Knicks in the '94 Finals. I would like for this not to end the same way, honestly.

As a basketball savant, I've not seen a small forward in my generation with the offensive skillset Melo has. Kobe has said he's the most difficult player to guard in the NBA, and he's right.
He has a low-post game, he's strong and can pound the ball inside. He's got a deadly mid-range game. He can take you outside, with that high arcing beauty of a shot. He can play with his back to the basket, BETTER than LeBron and Durant. He's got a wonderfully fluid first step, he can spin, he can glide, he can make the game seem like it's going in slow motion.

But, he takes bad shots. He's streaky & inconsistent. He plays the game sometimes as if he's on the playground at Rucker, going one-on-one, instead of part of a team game. It's like he's JUST learning this season to trust his teammates and to play within a team concept.

I would LOVE to say he was better than Durant. I am a DIEHARD Knick fan. I love Carmelo and supported the trade, although I hated to see Gallo & Felton go.

But, I've got to speak on what I see about this player. He's got to shake off pretty much how he's played basketball his entire life to become the transcendent player that he absolutely CAN be. That Durant and LeBron are.

While Melo is definitely one of the most difficult players to guard in the NBA, I think Dirk Nowitski is the most difficult player to guard of the last decade, considering that the NBA has never seen anything like him before, he is/was very unique as a player and deadly.

I also keep hearing about his "low post game".. I don't think he has a low post game.. He post high and often faces up the defender.. he doesn't have a real post move? no spins, up and unders, drop steps or even a jump hook. I think the post game and carmelo is just so overblown.... now he will try to back down a smaller defender to get closer, but honestly that is no different than most guys who have a size advantage and really no post game... I would not call what he does a post game... Posting up to receive the ball is not having a post game, and He does this simply because he doesn't want to move without the ball to get his shot.. he much rather post up and face the defender... which he does more often than make actual post moves..

i have seen him get the ball in the low post often enough to say he has the inkling or even more than an inkling of a low-post game. but you're right he does not possess the arsenal of a true low-post player and a big reason for that is that his footwork is so bad, as are his ball and head fakes which he rarely makes use of. you mention up and under well that used to be such a big part of the game and you hardly ever see that anymore. he really doesn't have any footwork. the one move i have seen from him that could be quite effective if he could get consistent at it is the spin move from the low right block to the baseline. he made it look easy a few games ago against i forget whom, but the other night he airballed that same move. part of the problem is that his right hand is not on the backboard side of things as it would be if he was shooting from the left block.

what i think he should be working on is a duncan-esque fadeaway off glass against bigger taller defenders. on smaller defenders he should be able to just rise up and shoot over them-- again using glass. it's like he's allergic to using glass. makes no sense!

good post, and I agree, his footwork is not good at all, I was just addressing when people use his post game as an advantage over other scorers.. I just don't see that.. I see he usually post up to get position, but he often faces up the defender. more than anything it would benefit if he worked more off the ball, since he does have a good midrange jumper.. he needs to stop chucking the long threes.. especially since he can make the midrange shot with relative ease... He should look at how some of these other SF's work off the ball, heck alex English would be a good example.... get some old nuggets tapes.... I do see carmelo losing some athleticism already as he was not the most athletic anyway.. a way to transform his game a bit, starting now would be to make himself more elusive....

as you said he is reluctant to move off the ball or without the ball. you know what i have seen a few times this season though is he will shake off a defender off of two staggered screens starting fromt he right side between the free throw line extended and the top of the key extended and set up for a shot calmly. either the ball meets him on the left side or he has managed to get there with the ball if memory serves. this is far preferable to watch let alone far more effective. plus, if he manages to keep his head up on the dribble anyone of the screen setters can roll and he may have it in him to set them up with a crisp bounce pass. obviously he needs to be able to make that pass with his left hand but this is a part of his game he should be working on all the time: finding the open man!

jrodmc wrote:I can live happily for at least the next month having read tkf praising anything about Melo's game.

tkf wrote:since he does have a good midrange jumper..

So lets sum up, shall we:

Durant's trancendant.
Dirk's legendary.
Alex English is a hallmark.
Lebron's otherworldly.

Melo's a second rate stooge. And he's fat. And has slow feet. And he chucks. And he can't defend. And he has no post game. And he makes bad decisions. And he's inconsistent. And he will never win anything. And he can't be built around. And he's unathletic now.

Knicks playing .700 ball. First in the division. For the majority of this season.
Who's our best player?

I know, JKidd!

CashMoney wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:Durant got a trip to the finals and MVP for season.

Two things Melo don't have. Lets see how Durant follows up to finals trips. Return? Or First round bounce.
Lets get them both on the floor for the finals and let them settle it on the court!

Is saying durant is better an insult to Melo?

No, Kevin Duran also has several NBA scoring titles and is on pace to become just the sixth NBA player in the NBA history to shoot 50 percent from the field, 40 percent from three-point range and 90 percent from the free-throw line for an entire season. KD is not just a great scorer, but one of the most efficient scorers ever.

Maybe for a season. Forget that Durant's numbers in his first 5 seasons are almost identical to Melo's first 5. Forget that in 2 of 3 Durant's scoring titles he had the 4th lowest average amongst scoring champs going back 44 years. SMFH.....

scoring titles are nice but irrelevant to winning. never mind the FG% if that is what you are focussing on-- you want to look at eFG% which accounts for 2s and 3s together, and better still TS%.

outside of his rookie year he has been putting up elite numbers in both categories.

CashMoney wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:Durant got a trip to the finals and MVP for season.

Two things Melo don't have. Lets see how Durant follows up to finals trips. Return? Or First round bounce.
Lets get them both on the floor for the finals and let them settle it on the court!

Is saying durant is better an insult to Melo?

No, Kevin Duran also has several NBA scoring titles and is on pace to become just the sixth NBA player in the NBA history to shoot 50 percent from the field, 40 percent from three-point range and 90 percent from the free-throw line for an entire season. KD is not just a great scorer, but one of the most efficient scorers ever.

Maybe for a season. Forget that Durant's numbers in his first 5 seasons are almost identical to Melo's first 5. Forget that in 2 of 3 Durant's scoring titles he had the 4th lowest average amongst scoring champs going back 44 years. SMFH.....

scoring titles are nice but irrelevant to winning. never mind the FG% if that is what you are focussing on-- you want to look at eFG% which accounts for 2s and 3s together, and better still TS%.

outside of his rookie year he has been putting up elite numbers in both categories.

Can't argue with EFG%. Never been a fan of TS% as FT's are given just as much weight. No arguing that Durant is a great player...all I'm saying is that Melo is comparable. Comparable meaning not better but close.

define close.

i throw out durant's first season and his career average eFG% is 54%
i throw out melo's first 2 seasons-- which is more than fair-- and his career average eFG% is 49%

that's a difference of 5% in eFG% which is not close at all.

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:Durant got a trip to the finals and MVP for season.

Two things Melo don't have. Lets see how Durant follows up to finals trips. Return? Or First round bounce.
Lets get them both on the floor for the finals and let them settle it on the court!

Is saying durant is better an insult to Melo?

No, Kevin Duran also has several NBA scoring titles and is on pace to become just the sixth NBA player in the NBA history to shoot 50 percent from the field, 40 percent from three-point range and 90 percent from the free-throw line for an entire season. KD is not just a great scorer, but one of the most efficient scorers ever.

Maybe for a season. Forget that Durant's numbers in his first 5 seasons are almost identical to Melo's first 5. Forget that in 2 of 3 Durant's scoring titles he had the 4th lowest average amongst scoring champs going back 44 years. SMFH.....

scoring titles are nice but irrelevant to winning. never mind the FG% if that is what you are focussing on-- you want to look at eFG% which accounts for 2s and 3s together, and better still TS%.

outside of his rookie year he has been putting up elite numbers in both categories.

Can't argue with EFG%. Never been a fan of TS% as FT's are given just as much weight. No arguing that Durant is a great player...all I'm saying is that Melo is comparable. Comparable meaning not better but close.

What? Why shouldn't 2 free throws be given the same weight as 1 field goal?

Because they're free throws.