fishmike wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

fishmike wrote:Look... Melo is playing great ball. I didnt make that list to knock him, just to illuminate what is obvious to some. Knicks are better because the team is better.

Whats funny is the minions desperate need to validate his greatness. Melo is the same Melo he's always been. Playing better defense? Sure, Ill bite.

Knicks big story is the backcourt. Funny how Jason Kidd and Felton having a career year are more effective than last year's starters Toney Douglas and Landry Fields. Because its all Melo and coaching right?

When the same things were argued when he was losing though y wasn't this valid then though? Minions desperate need to validate his greatness is the same as the minions desperate need to devalue and downgrade him. At this point its clearly more of a pissing contest then anything else.

But the guy loses in the playoffs with the Knicks with some depleted rosters and all ppl wanted to talk about was how he was a playoff loser. Y wasn't perspective granted at that point in time?

If you believe that Melo hasn't greatly improved which can be a fair analysis, but has a better cast around him allowing him to be more successful. Isn't that all that was asked when ppl were blasting his playoff failures?

Durant doesn't get downgraded for being able to play with Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden/Martin. Pierce doesn't get downgraded for being able to play with Rondo, Allen, Garnett. Etc...

My point exactly. And if KD or Pierce didn't have those guys, I bet we will be talking about how they're a ball hog as well because they will feel the need to do it themselves.

durant doesnt have ten years of playoff failures and poor performances to explain. Melo's like 15-32 and shoots like 41% in the playoffs (approx). He's the star. And we are now full circle. Its not Melo's fault he's lost in the past, his teams sucked. But now its Melo the great and anyone that mentions the improved players around him are haters and just trying to discredit. May the circle jerk resume!

I dont know about anyone else here but this "circle jerk" thing is really being thrown around too often and frankly I find it offensive.

Biggest difference for me is the team is now built around Melo. Way more defenders and Melo gets the ball in the spots he wants. Everyone knows its Melo's team so you dont have indians pretending to be chiefs.

Hard to win playing with inexperienced players still learning. Most NBA games come down to the last 5 minutes. The good teams finish strong. Bad teams collapse when the pressure is on.

fishmike wrote:

cooch2584 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

fishmike wrote:Look... Melo is playing great ball. I didnt make that list to knock him, just to illuminate what is obvious to some. Knicks are better because the team is better.

Whats funny is the minions desperate need to validate his greatness. Melo is the same Melo he's always been. Playing better defense? Sure, Ill bite.

Knicks big story is the backcourt. Funny how Jason Kidd and Felton having a career year are more effective than last year's starters Toney Douglas and Landry Fields. Because its all Melo and coaching right?

When the same things were argued when he was losing though y wasn't this valid then though? Minions desperate need to validate his greatness is the same as the minions desperate need to devalue and downgrade him. At this point its clearly more of a pissing contest then anything else.

But the guy loses in the playoffs with the Knicks with some depleted rosters and all ppl wanted to talk about was how he was a playoff loser. Y wasn't perspective granted at that point in time?

If you believe that Melo hasn't greatly improved which can be a fair analysis, but has a better cast around him allowing him to be more successful. Isn't that all that was asked when ppl were blasting his playoff failures?

Durant doesn't get downgraded for being able to play with Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden/Martin. Pierce doesn't get downgraded for being able to play with Rondo, Allen, Garnett. Etc...

My point exactly. And if KD or Pierce didn't have those guys, I bet we will be talking about how they're a ball hog as well because they will feel the need to do it themselves.

durant doesnt have ten years of playoff failures and poor performances to explain. Melo's like 15-32 and shoots like 41% in the playoffs (approx). He's the star. And we are now full circle. Its not Melo's fault he's lost in the past, his teams sucked. But now its Melo the great and anyone that mentions the improved players around him are haters and just trying to discredit. May the circle jerk resume!

I dont know about anyone else here but this "circle jerk" thing is really being thrown around too often and frankly I find it offensive.

just avoid the "Melo is elite/MVP/greatest" threads.

Oh... there are none

Fish,Im not calling you out on this, its been used too many times by too many other posters.

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

fishmike wrote:nyny... Pierce made a few trips to the ECF with Anoine Walker as a running mate. Granted the East was dreadful but he won a lot of playoff games before Boston added KG, Ray and Rondo

Melo is a better player, but who's career would you rather have?

Id take Pierce career easy as it stands. He has a championship and has gotten to play with one of my favorite players in Garnett. IMO though if Melo's Denver teams were playing in the east vs the same comp Melo would probably have the same success as Pierce did at that time. But again thats just my opinion.

I don't think Boston's style of play was really a threat to beat any top flight team. They just jacked up a ton of 3s, I didn't really see Pierce carry his team to greatness or anything but it was a long time ago I don't really remember.

they werent and he didnt. I guess thats kinda the point. Pierce's best BB is played when he does less and his surrounded by talent. Is that a knock on PP? Not really, just that he's not Lebron or Ewing or the kind of player that you can put role players around and win 50 games every year. Melo might be close to that, but he falls short because his teams are terrible in the playoffs. Ewing's werent. PP's werent either.

Like I said and will continue to say.. some folks are simply waiting to see Melo's greatness when it counts the most. Also seems like for each of his great playoff games he's laid an egg also. Hard to win a series when your best player is so eratic. We traded our roster, picks, cap space and paid this guy max money to come here and be the man, but people get so sensitive when you mention or expect him to be a difference maker come this spring.

Now this is fair. For me, I expect for this team to reach the ECF. That's something we can build on, considering our window is 3 years with this team. Now, Melo is one of my favorite players, but if he doesn't get it done with a team finally built around him, as it is now, I will be the first to say he may not be the player we thought or expected him to be.

His playoff experience have been terrible, mostly because of the conference and the team he was surrounded with. I also think GK wasn't a good fit, but whatever. We will see how everything plays out.

Lastly, am I the only one who doesn't think we are in such bad shape concerning the future. We act like Tyson, Melo and Felton doesn't have a good 5 years left. I'm not sure how Amare knees hold up. Not mention Shump, Jr and Brewer (who i think we keep) are pretty young. We also have a few picks of our own and will continue to add veterans. Trust ... it's not all doom and gloom.

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Putting people in position to succeed and covering there weaknesses = winning formula.
Putting people in position to fail and then bashing them for not overcoming all obsticales = losing/dysfunctional formula.

A lot of the knocks on Melo were legit at the same time he was slightly over criticized. The problem I had was the viewpoint that he would never get better or ever find success when over the yrs of watching basketball we have seen tons of players do so in the later parts of there careers.

this more than anything else.

Is Melo shooting better?
Is Melo rebounding more?
Is Melo getting more assists?
Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

He's an star and he's playing like an all star. Team is better and winning more games because the team is better so they are winning more games.

Is Melo shooting better?

NO

Is Melo rebounding more?

NO

Is Melo getting more assists?

absolutely NOT..

Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

NO

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

good post, but you must remember around here...

he is a Knick Fish, the heart wants to believe what the heart wants to believe...

again, I am more impressed with how kidd is playing than anything else...

Wow...you can't even do the work to compare his season stats to his career numbers? He's at his career averages for everything except 3pt FG% (up by 13) and assists (down by 1 because he's on the court with 2 point guards most of the time).

You obviously put on a show to get the board riled up. If not, it's beyond me how you or anyone else can't support Melo when he is doing everything ever asked of him.

OK, SO what are you talking about, fish was asking is he doing anything better.. overall, he isn't... the end bro..

Oh I see. You're saying his career numbers are bad. This means you have no basketball perspective whatsoever. The end bro...

You don't see any ground between "elite" and "bad"? Maybe you are the one who lacks perspective.

Of course I do! I commented the other day that if "Great" is MJ, Magic, Bird, etc, then Melo is not great. But to use his very good numbers and say they are not elite, thus the Knicks would be doing this without him, is BS. What this boils down to is people want Melo to be LeBron. That will never ever ever ever happen. Yes, we paid a hig price for Melo, but in the end it was the right call. It took time to build a good team around him but you have to start somewhere.

And to your comment that we'd by .400 without Tyson and Kidd, that's like saying MJ would never have won a title without Pippen and guys like Grant, Rodman, etc. Basically, you're saying Melo isn't the type of difference maker that you can win with no matter what the rest of the roster looks like. But who is? The only guy that you can make a case for is LeBron, and even he didn't do it until he was playing with Wade and Bosh.

What exactly are we arguing????

No, it's not. Saying that Michael would have been on a .400 team without those guys is the same.
My point is that Melo is the same player, and thus with the same teammates we would have the same result as in the past. The only thing that's changed is his surroundings. If you didn't think he was an MVP candidate before, you shouldn't now.

This is a flawed argument. You should only be in the running for MVP if you have a season where your numbers are better than historical averages?

AnubisADL wrote:Melo has always been elite.

There is a reason he plays for Team USA in the summer.

Stop it, they just had to put him on the roster because Wade, Bosh, and Blake Griffin were all hurt.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

fishmike wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Melo has always been elite.

There is a reason he plays for Team USA in the summer.

is that the same one Christian Lattner and Stephon MArbury played for?

Best things to come from Team USA: Charles Barkley's 50 greatest quotes and Vince Carter's dunk on Fred Weiss

The same one that never cared to add Gallinari, Chanlder, and Mozgov regardless of their backgrounds.

Bonn1997 wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

fishmike wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Melo has always been elite.

There is a reason he plays for Team USA in the summer.

is that the same one Christian Lattner and Stephon MArbury played for?

Best things to come from Team USA: Charles Barkley's 50 greatest quotes and Vince Carter's dunk on Fred Weiss

The same one that never cared to add Gallinari, Chanlder, and Mozgov regardless of their backgrounds.

And the same one that did add MDA

Any system would work with the best players in the world, comon Bonn.

Let me chime in a bit on what is different:

Roster not "Clumsy". We have depth at multiple positions. Under previous coach we did not have this and come playoff time we just did not have the roster to compete.

Melo is doing things that don't show up on the box score. Based on Karls comments I might guess Melo was a bit conscience of this as he came closer to his contract extension. Doing small things add up and are more condusive to winning.

Coach-Player dynamic: Might just be better at implimenting what the coach wants. Players like woodson and play for him.

Melo scoring, and other metrics are what they are.

Im going on what I see with my own eyes not what I read.

IM not into fable story about his summer experience with superfriends and AAU bodies, or when young men making tens of millions of dollars do on teh olympic team.

Sometimes players take their skill and youth for granted. Maybe this was melo, maybe not. We don't know these guys personally like some claim to on these pages.

It all gets sorted out on the court!