ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:BTW, Melo's plus/minus was in negative territory last year. Do you think the Knicks would have won more games without him or do you reject the validity of the plus/minus stat?

What does last year have to do with this season and Tyson's last game against the Nets?

Let me try again: would the Knicks have won more games without Melo last year or is the plus/minus stat invalid (and therefore not worth examining for yesterday's game)?

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:BTW, Melo's plus/minus was in negative territory last year. Do you think the Knicks would have won more games without him or do you reject the validity of the plus/minus stat?

What does last year have to do with this season and Tyson's last game against the Nets?

We're talking about the validity of the stat now. Unless you're claiming that the stat was not valid last year but not is, the season in reference is irrelevant. It seems like you are one of the many who cite the plus/minus stat only when it confirms what you already believe.

Let me try again: would the Knicks have won more games without Melo last year or is the plus/minus stat invalid (and therefore not worth examining for yesterday's game)?

Last game plusminus was definitely validated, as Tyson had a very very very poor game. Might have been one of his worst this season. As for overall, I don't put too much stock into either plusminus or win shares or ts% or efg% or yada yada. I like to use my eyes most of the time to judge and then look at the boxscore later to validate. I don't just watch 5 minute highlights at the end of night then look at Basketball-Reference to make my judgement. I judge by what I see happening during the game by the tick of the shotclock. I'm a fan, not a numbers geek(no offense).

Bonn1997 wrote:None taken. I am a proud geek (AND fan).
I don't think you understand the concept of validity though if you're saying the +/- sometimes is and sometimes is not valid.

Melo had a rough year last year, as did Amare, so I'm pretty sure their plusminus must've been validated last season. What site do you use to see last years plusminus?

Bonn1997 wrote:This year's:
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213NYK.HTM
Then you type in the correct year if you want to see a different season. So last year would be
http://www.82games.com/1112/1112NYK.HTM
Melo was -1.0
Chandler was -0.7, indicating that the team was better off without him last year (if you buy into the +/- stat, that is)

Gotcha, thanks.

Damn Chandler was negative plusminus too. Amare -8 for last year!?

Rough start for all last season.

Bonn1997 wrote:Win shares bounced around a lot after the last game.

1. Kevin Durant-OKC .283
2. Chris Paul-LAC .275
3. Tyson Chandler-NYK .274
4. Jason Kidd-NYK .254
5. LeBron James-MIA .253
6. Tim Duncan-SAS .246
7. Kobe Bryant-LAL .240
8. Marc Gasol-MEM .239
9. Tiago Splitter-SAS .235
10. Tony Parker-SAS .207
11. Carmelo Anthony-NYK .198
12. Kevin Martin-OKC .198
13. Chris Bosh-MIA .196
14. Eric Bledsoe-LAC .196
15. Andray Blatche-BRK .193
16. Carl Landry-GSW .193
17. Ed Davis-TOR .188
18. Zach Randolph-MEM .187
19. Serge Ibaka-OKC .183
20. David West-IND .181

Wins produced gives more credit to Kidd and Tyson and less to Melo (mostly because of his rebounding and turnovers)
http://www.thenbageek.com/teams/nyk

It is really awesome to have 3 of the top 11 guys though. We and the Spurs are the only ones with 3 on that list.

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Wade's still a good player but he aged fast. I haven't watched Davis but he's scoring very efficiently and grabbing a ton of rebounds.

Someone on a Wins Shares list from a 4-19 team is pretty ironic.

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Wade's still a good player but he aged fast. I haven't watched Davis but he's scoring very efficiently and grabbing a ton of rebounds.

Someone on a Wins Shares list from a 4-19 team is pretty ironic.

Well A-Rod was an MVP on a last place team. It can happen. He's the only player with an impressive WS on the entire team.

Very very strange. Sometimes numbers don't add up. No one on a 4-19 team should be on a list called "Win Shares" no matter how efficient they score or how low their turnovers are. Guess it'll correct itself with more games.

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Wade's still a good player but he aged fast. I haven't watched Davis but he's scoring very efficiently and grabbing a ton of rebounds.

Someone on a Wins Shares list from a 4-19 team is pretty ironic.

Well A-Rod was an MVP on a last place team. It can happen. He's the only player with an impressive WS on the entire team.

Very very strange. Sometimes numbers don't add up. No one on a 4-19 team should be on a list called "Win Shares" no matter how efficient they score or how low their turnovers are. Guess it'll correct itself with more games.

Actually, there are two different stats - WS per 48 min tells you how effectively the player has played when on the court; total WS tells you how many wins the player has contributed to the team's total. Davis has played well but he's also played few minutes. That means that (a) his WS per 48 min may change and (b) he hasn't contributed many total wins (1.5). Based on how they've played, WS predicts that Toronto should have 6.5 wins - they've played like **** but they've also had some bad breaks. It doesn't seem inconceivable to me that one player could be responsible for 1.5 out of 6.5 wins. 1.5 doesn't put him close to the top 20 in total win shares. Here are the total win shares.

Win Shares
1. Kevin Durant-OKC 5.1
2. Chris Paul-LAC 4.2
3. Kobe Bryant-LAL 4.1
4. LeBron James-MIA 4.0
5. Tyson Chandler-NYK 3.7
6. Tim Duncan-SAS 3.4
7. Marc Gasol-MEM 3.4
8. Joakim Noah-CHI 3.0
9. Anderson Varejao-CLE 3.0
10. Tony Parker-SAS 3.0
11. Russell Westbrook-OKC 2.9
12. David West-IND 2.9
13. Carmelo Anthony-NYK 2.8
14. David Lee-GSW 2.8
15. Chris Bosh-MIA 2.8
16. Zach Randolph-MEM 2.7
17. Blake Griffin-LAC 2.7
18. Kevin Martin-OKC 2.7
19. Stephen Curry-GSW 2.7
20. Serge Ibaka-OKC 2.6

You can see that because Kidd has missed some games and doesn't play a lot of minutes, he falls off of this list. He's at 2.5; so he's probably in the top 25.

Yea I like this indicator much better than the WS/48.

Bonn1997 wrote:The lack of rebounding is surprising. 17 points on 5 FGAs is as good as it gets though.

Surprising it's terrible especially early. Those back taps really helped cool my furry but dag. I want Tyson-bot not Flu like symptoms-Tyson.