3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:TKF when the Nuggets hired George Karl that's when POOF begin and the numbers once again don't lie here.

I think the POOF began when Denver got rid of MDA

Yes and No

I've outlined this here before in another thread

Melo's first year as a Nugget he helped improve the team by 26gms from previous season. How could we omit the addition of Andre Miller the same year(who has proven to help teams in most of his stops throughout his career)? Coached by Jeff Bizdelik

A season later it appears Melo(& possibly other players) may have had an axe to grind with Jeff Bizdelik or there was turmoil with mgmt(Kiki) because they were 17-25....this is with the addition of Kenyon Martin.

They took off from when Jeff B. and Cooper were replaced by George Karl finishing 32-8 with him at helm. The team steadily improved year-by-year record wise and from an offensive perspective. Peaked with 1 WCF appearance.

Ironically the Melo era runs it's course in Denver, he leaves to come here and yet the Nuggets maintain their 45-50win season pace and scoring output after losing "THE PURE SCORER"

What's in bold/italic/underline are the important points with data to back it up. BasketballReference.com as the source for material. That's why I say they went POOF when Karl showed up

Ok - so Melo does not get the credit for Denver - it is really irrelevant.

I still can't believe that Karl, a 1 seed lost to an 8 seed in the playoffs. Hardly mr successful in the playoffs. Decent coach though.

Knixkik wrote:

RonRon wrote:At least Orlando did not trade for either player, they signed both.

We gave up too many assets for Melo, for a want not a need, and took many steps backwards.
2 -3 years of patience, players development, collecting assets, and building chemistry/ an identity was traded away for a drama queen stat whore that does not improve the players around him.

Not being able to sign that 3rd star when we signed Amare and while keeping our assets for future *fair* trades, was destroyed in 1 night by Dolan, leaving us little flexiblity.

the price we payed for Camby *which he was traded for 1 2nd round pick only or less in the past 8 years* and Felton that we got in return for David Lee.

There is a significant flaw with your perception as well as others who did not like the trade. There were no other options to get a star player. There was a lockout and free agency in its current state was gone. The package we gave up was one that Denver only accepted because they were held hostage by Melo. If Melo did not make it clear he wanted NY and only NY, Melo would have gone to NJ or another team for a better package. A package including Gallo, Chandler, and other "assets" was not attractive to most. Gallo and Chandler were both viewed as good role players, not future stars, who were due for big paydays the following season. Holding our "assets" longer would have thus made them less attractive. These were players on the end of rookie deals. We did not trade any lottery picks or future stars. The idea that this package we traded was exceptional and could have netted another star is very inaccurate.

unless the stars the knicks have step up, then the trade and FA pickups will mean what? team will have been stuck in and remain in nba purgatory -- the worst place to be if you are capped out and have avg scouting/FO folks. chasing the star player is required in the nba, however if you miss out it seems like its much better to flat out suck than to be a middling team...

this does include some early judgements from me that the scouting/FO are avg... ill believe things are better when the season gets rolling. this team, namely carmelo and amare, have a lot to prove.

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:TKF when the Nuggets hired George Karl that's when POOF begin and the numbers once again don't lie here.

I think the POOF began when Denver got rid of MDA

Yes and No

I've outlined this here before in another thread

Melo's first year as a Nugget he helped improve the team by 26gms from previous season. How could we omit the addition of Andre Miller the same year(who has proven to help teams in most of his stops throughout his career)? Coached by Jeff Bizdelik

A season later it appears Melo(& possibly other players) may have had an axe to grind with Jeff Bizdelik or there was turmoil with mgmt(Kiki) because they were 17-25....this is with the addition of Kenyon Martin.

They took off from when Jeff B. and Cooper were replaced by George Karl finishing 32-8 with him at helm. The team steadily improved year-by-year record wise and from an offensive perspective. Peaked with 1 WCF appearance.

Ironically the Melo era runs it's course in Denver, he leaves to come here and yet the Nuggets maintain their 45-50win season pace and scoring output after losing "THE PURE SCORER"

What's in bold/italic/underline are the important points with data to back it up. BasketballReference.com as the source for material. That's why I say they went POOF when Karl showed up

Ok - so Melo does not get the credit for Denver - it is really irrelevant.

I still can't believe that Karl, a 1 seed lost to an 8 seed in the playoffs. Hardly mr successful in the playoffs. Decent coach though.

True

George Karl deserves blame for failing there against Motumbo Led Nuggets upsetting them on their floor. But no need to try and dig Karl to ease the burden of blow for Melo. Because resumes speak for themselves

Karl reached the WCF 1rst yr as Sonics coach prior to losing the 1 vs 8 upset. 2yrs later he got them to the Finals against the Bulls. Jordan's worst Finals performance and they won 2gms. Last season with the Sonics was 1997-1998 closing out with a Semis appearance

Karl leaves for the Bucks 1998-1999 and in his 3rd season gets them to the ECF. Came within a Glen Robinson late tip in of reaching the Finals. Last season with Bucks 2002-2003 leaving with a First Round exit.

Karl next leaves for the Nuggets 2004-2005 and in his 4rth and a half season gets them to the WCF. Last season 2011-2012 First Round exit currently coaching them

So he's taken 3 different teams to a Conference Finals or Finals appearance and although has suffered his fair share of first round exits he's won the greater portion of playoff gms.... series for series overall without Melo. Wasn't until he was sacked with Melo he could barely win a game or 2 in the Playoffs.

dk7th wrote:I have asked this question several times without a response:

had melo waited for free agency would the knicks be better than they are now?

Yes they could have won 36gms or thereabouts let's say 33-33

Keep in mind the team last year we went 8-1 without Melo and Amar'e. Let's say we make similar moves although we know good and well it probably doesn't happen this way

This would have been my rotation

Starters

Felton $7mil
Shumpert $2.1mil
Melo $16mil
Amar'e $19mil
Mozgov $2.5mil

Bench

Lin $750k(league min)
Fields $750k(2nd round pick guaranteed)
Novak $750k(league min)
Gallo $3.75mil
Jeffries $1mil(vet min)

Douglas $1.75mil
J.R. Smith $2.5mil(partial MLE)
Walker $1mil
AR $3mil
Jorts $750k(non guaranteed)

Chandler traded for 2012 pick(s) in the 15-25 range and/or possible rotation player

Chandler has to be traded in order for there to be cap room to sign Melo outright to a Near Max/Max deal. For example Chandler for San Antonio's 2012 first and DeJuan Blair

Then we could have had 2012 1rst SAS, our 2014 1rst, 2016 1rst, 2011 2nd, 2012 2nd GSW, 2013 2nd GSW, and AR/Jorts/Walker/Douglas to trade during the 2011 or 2012 draft and/or at the deadline of both seasons to improve from above. 1 player maybe gets waived in Walker as we would have decided between he and say Jorts if no deal was consummated by the time the season starts.

Maybe an imbecile on bath salts would think otherwise.

Knixkik wrote:

3G4G wrote:

dk7th wrote:I have asked this question several times without a response:

had melo waited for free agency would the knicks be better than they are now?

Yes they could have won 36gms or thereabouts let's say 33-33

Keep in mind the team last year we went 8-1 without Melo and Amar'e. Let's say we make similar moves although we know good and well it probably doesn't happen this way

This would have been my rotation

Starters

Felton $7mil
Shumpert $750k
Melo $16mil
Amar'e $19mil
Mozgov $2.5mil

Bench

Lin $750k(league min)
Fields $750k(2nd round pick guaranteed)
Novak $750k(league min)
Gallo $3.75mil
Jeffries $1mil(vet min)

Douglas $1.75mil
J.R. Smith $2.5mil(partial MLE)
Walker $1mil
AR $3mil
Jorts $750k(non guaranteed)

Chandler traded for 2012 pick(s) in the 15-25 range and/or possible rotation player

Chandler has to be traded in order for there to be cap room to sign Melo outright to a Near Max/Max deal. For example Chandler for San Antonio's 2012 first and DeJuan Blair

Then we could have had 2012 1rst SAS, our 2014 1rst, 2016 1rst, 2011 2nd, 2012 2nd GSW, 2013 2nd GSW, and AR/Jorts/Walker/Douglas to trade during the 2011 or 2012 draft and/or at the deadline of both seasons to improve from above. 1 player maybe gets waived in Walker as we would have decided between he and say Walker if no deal was consummated by the time the season starts.

Maybe an imbecile on bath salts would think otherwise.

I would say that this team (considering no Tyson Chandler) is a worse team that the one we currently have, much worse. I also think you need to consider that Lin likely would never have been in the equation. Lin got his chance based on a series of events that began with the Melo deal. If Felton was still here, Douglas would have been the backup PG (he would have never been exposed as a starter. Remember when he was a decent 6th man?) also Bibby would likely be there as well. Lin, if by some chance was on the team, would never have made it on the active roster, let alone start. He started seeing playing time because there were no other option. No Billups, no BD, bibby sucked, douglas sucked, Lin was all there was. If Felton is on the team, he starts all season and is backed up by Bibby and/or Douglas, who would have looked much better in 15 mpg bench roles. PG would not have been a major issue like it was. Otherwise i can see what you put together, agree that is about what the roster would look like, and say we would have been a worse team if Melo had waited for Free agency. Only plausible scenario, again, is if we flipped a couple of our role players into Nash this past summer, but that was unlikely.

I made some typos with names and whatnot..... corrected a couple line items(salary) from my breakdown but to address this point you've made

First of all not sure why you're so Hell Bent on establishing what would have took place with Lin. I had him as the lead backup not a starter. IMO I doubt we would have taken a chance on Bibby or Baron if Felton was here. We were looking hard at J.J. Berrea before we picked up Baron.

But remember Duhon literally had to Grey Goose himself off the court before D'Antoni would think of playing another point guard? He got used to Duhon playing lots of minutes and never looked back. He repeated the same when Felton signed. I also think D'AnToni wanted Melo to play more of a ball handling role.

Douglas was never really a true backup he was more like a Barbosa, another guard in general. Douglas was touted as not healthy(although he kept shooting like he had no conscience). I'll remind you again the Post reported on a couple of occasions he had shoulder and back issues the season prior.

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=6480144

Felton was on a 2yr deal he would have been an expiring. This is what you're failing to factor in. No long term solution at point, so it's not out of question to think we bring in another point guard and maybe bide our time further into the season. Also Douglas NEVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER(Chris Tucker Voice) showed he could run PNR. Since D'AnToni was the coach at season's begin yeah we probably sign some kind of PG eventually. Maybe not Lin.... but someone. Like I said we all know the same exact players wouldn't have been on our team that includes Smith/Novak.

At the same time you want the same injury variables to remain. Not saying I disagree with the thought a couple of those players end up injured(Gallo/Amar'e/Moz) but logic must prove balanced throughout. I would wager no one would have figured Melo to have gotten injured as early as he did. Switching teams, taking on new roles, like playing point forward or playing center when a player wants to play power forward or playing power forward when a player could/should be playing small forward could put a player at risk, who knows.

KnicksFE wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:I have asked this question several times without a response:

had melo waited for free agency would the knicks be better than they are now?

Absolutely not. I'd like someone to give an example of how they could possibly be better or even close to as good. An oft-injured Stoudemire, Gallo, W Chandler, Felton (who would have been paid much more had he stayed in ny), fields, Shumpert, and a couple of mid-salary FAs would have been a disaster given Stoudemire's last 1 1/2 years. It would have been a team built around a star who is fighting to stay healthy and in his prime. Who is the best player we could have put a package for other than Melo? Kevin Martin? Absolutely not Igoudala, maybe Nash. But that's about it. I bet our starting lineup without the trade would be Stoudmire, Gallo, C Chandler, Fields, and Nash with MDA as head coach.

Patience is everythig, I’m sure Orlando would gladly take all the assets we gave for Melo instead of the package they got from the Howard trade.
Having the flexibility to excute a trade at any oportunity, by having our young players and picks is just as important as having the so call STAR (Melo) considering that we still a 500% team, just like before the trade. We remain average with little flexibility to get better.

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:I have asked this question several times without a response:

had melo waited for free agency would the knicks be better than they are now?

Absolutely not. I'd like someone to give an example of how they could possibly be better or even close to as good. An oft-injured Stoudemire, Gallo, W Chandler, Felton (who would have been paid much more had he stayed in ny), fields, Shumpert, and a couple of mid-salary FAs would have been a disaster given Stoudemire's last 1 1/2 years. It would have been a team built around a star who is fighting to stay healthy and in his prime. Who is the best player we could have put a package for other than Melo? Kevin Martin? Absolutely not Igoudala, maybe Nash. But that's about it. I bet our starting lineup without the trade would be Stoudmire, Gallo, C Chandler, Fields, and Nash with MDA as head coach.

Patience is everythig, I’m sure Orlando would gladly take all the assets we gave for Melo instead of the package they got from the Howard trade.
Having the flexibility to excute a trade at any oportunity, by having our young players and picks is just as important as having the so call STAR (Melo) considering that we still a 500% team, just like before the trade. We remain average with little flexibility to get better.

I don't think they would have taken the Knicks package. The Nets package was significantly better and they did not accept it. They took this package for a reason. People vasty overrated our package on this board.

or maybe you just vastly overrate melo?

Knixkik wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:I have asked this question several times without a response:

had melo waited for free agency would the knicks be better than they are now?

Absolutely not. I'd like someone to give an example of how they could possibly be better or even close to as good. An oft-injured Stoudemire, Gallo, W Chandler, Felton (who would have been paid much more had he stayed in ny), fields, Shumpert, and a couple of mid-salary FAs would have been a disaster given Stoudemire's last 1 1/2 years. It would have been a team built around a star who is fighting to stay healthy and in his prime. Who is the best player we could have put a package for other than Melo? Kevin Martin? Absolutely not Igoudala, maybe Nash. But that's about it. I bet our starting lineup without the trade would be Stoudmire, Gallo, C Chandler, Fields, and Nash with MDA as head coach.

Patience is everythig, I’m sure Orlando would gladly take all the assets we gave for Melo instead of the package they got from the Howard trade.
Having the flexibility to excute a trade at any oportunity, by having our young players and picks is just as important as having the so call STAR (Melo) considering that we still a 500% team, just like before the trade. We remain average with little flexibility to get better.

I don't think they would have taken the Knicks package. The Nets package was significantly better and they did not accept it. They took this package for a reason. People vasty overrated our package on this board.

I read that that Orlando didn’t take the Nets package because aside from the valuable picks they were receiving, they had to take Brook Lopes and his Max contract, leaving little salary cap flexibility to move forward and sign free agents in the future. So they accepted this last package for Howard because it gave them a little bit of everything (Picks, Youth and salary cap)

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-10/sports/os-dwight-howard-trade-20120810_1_magic-fans-rob-hennigan-orlando-magic

Now look at everything we sent to the Nuggets for Melo (4 young players, 3 picks + the option to swap picks in 2016 + 34 million saving in salaries and luxury tax) Also, the Knicks sent Curry, AR and cash to Minnesota and Nuggets received Corey Brewer, who still young and developing. That’s five young players on rookie salaries.

Honestly, I think Orlando would have gladly accepted our package for Howard; there is no question about it, now I have no problem paying premium for the likes of Howard, Lebrom, KD, but for Melo? Personally I believe we clearly over paid for the guy, a very good player? Yes, but not a great one.

http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/02/projected-saving-for-nuggets-as-result-of-carmelo-anthony-trade-34615779-88/

3G4G wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

3G4G wrote:

dk7th wrote:I have asked this question several times without a response:

had melo waited for free agency would the knicks be better than they are now?

Yes they could have won 36gms or thereabouts let's say 33-33

Keep in mind the team last year we went 8-1 without Melo and Amar'e. Let's say we make similar moves although we know good and well it probably doesn't happen this way

This would have been my rotation

Starters

Felton $7mil
Shumpert $750k
Melo $16mil
Amar'e $19mil
Mozgov $2.5mil

Bench

Lin $750k(league min)
Fields $750k(2nd round pick guaranteed)
Novak $750k(league min)
Gallo $3.75mil
Jeffries $1mil(vet min)

Douglas $1.75mil
J.R. Smith $2.5mil(partial MLE)
Walker $1mil
AR $3mil
Jorts $750k(non guaranteed)

Chandler traded for 2012 pick(s) in the 15-25 range and/or possible rotation player

Chandler has to be traded in order for there to be cap room to sign Melo outright to a Near Max/Max deal. For example Chandler for San Antonio's 2012 first and DeJuan Blair

Then we could have had 2012 1rst SAS, our 2014 1rst, 2016 1rst, 2011 2nd, 2012 2nd GSW, 2013 2nd GSW, and AR/Jorts/Walker/Douglas to trade during the 2011 or 2012 draft and/or at the deadline of both seasons to improve from above. 1 player maybe gets waived in Walker as we would have decided between he and say Walker if no deal was consummated by the time the season starts.

Maybe an imbecile on bath salts would think otherwise.

I would say that this team (considering no Tyson Chandler) is a worse team that the one we currently have, much worse. I also think you need to consider that Lin likely would never have been in the equation. Lin got his chance based on a series of events that began with the Melo deal. If Felton was still here, Douglas would have been the backup PG (he would have never been exposed as a starter. Remember when he was a decent 6th man?) also Bibby would likely be there as well. Lin, if by some chance was on the team, would never have made it on the active roster, let alone start. He started seeing playing time because there were no other option. No Billups, no BD, bibby sucked, douglas sucked, Lin was all there was. If Felton is on the team, he starts all season and is backed up by Bibby and/or Douglas, who would have looked much better in 15 mpg bench roles. PG would not have been a major issue like it was. Otherwise i can see what you put together, agree that is about what the roster would look like, and say we would have been a worse team if Melo had waited for Free agency. Only plausible scenario, again, is if we flipped a couple of our role players into Nash this past summer, but that was unlikely.

I made some typos with names and whatnot..... corrected a couple line items(salary) from my breakdown but to address this point you've made

First of all not sure why you're so Hell Bent on establishing what would have took place with Lin. I had him as the lead backup not a starter. IMO I doubt we would have taken a chance on Bibby or Baron if Felton was here. We were looking hard at J.J. Berrea before we picked up Baron.

But remember Duhon literally had to Grey Goose himself off the court before D'Antoni would think of playing another point guard? He got used to Duhon playing lots of minutes and never looked back. He repeated the same when Felton signed. I also think D'AnToni wanted Melo to play more of a ball handling role.

Douglas was never really a true backup he was more like a Barbosa, another guard in general. Douglas was touted as not healthy(although he kept shooting like he had no conscience). I'll remind you again the Post reported on a couple of occasions he had shoulder and back issues the season prior.

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=6480144

Felton was on a 2yr deal he would have been an expiring. This is what you're failing to factor in. No long term solution at point, so it's not out of question to think we bring in another point guard and maybe bide our time further into the season. Also Douglas NEVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER(Chris Tucker Voice) showed he could run PNR. Since D'AnToni was the coach at season's begin yeah we probably sign some kind of PG eventually. Maybe not Lin.... but someone. Like I said we all know the same exact players wouldn't have been on our team that includes Smith/Novak.

At the same time you want the same injury variables to remain. Not saying I disagree with the thought a couple of those players end up injured(Gallo/Amar'e/Moz) but logic must prove balanced throughout. I would wager no one would have figured Melo to have gotten injured as early as he did. Switching teams, taking on new roles, like playing point forward or playing center when a player wants to play power forward or playing power forward when a player could/should be playing small forward could put a player at risk, who knows.

the key to my question was concerning felton and the point guard situation. the eesence of walsh's plan was to do just that. he likely would have played out his contract which was intentionally short and cheap. then the question becomes, for me, would we have had enough assets and/or cash to engage phoenix for nash? i mean trade someone other than or in addition to shumpert?

also the way things shook out it is quite possible if not probable that lin would have been acquired in any event.

we would have had a good balance of youth and age and would have remained in a position to upgrade at several positions as needed. now we are old and have no assets or picks.