newyorknewyork wrote:

VCoug wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:This team has a 2 yr window to win it all. But the rebuilding process after is being a bit exaggerated. Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Jr Smith, Novak are all under 30. Melo, Amare, Tyson, Kidd, Camby all come off the books. Melo will be resigned. Tyson and Amare will most likley be resigned with pay cuts. Or The knicks will go after other free agents if Amare is done. The team will have a good amount of cap flexibility to refill depth lost. They will have 2 first rd draft picks out of the next 3 yrs added to the roster at this time. And will have the rest of there draft picks for the remaining yrs if no trades are made.

I don't see the rebuilding purgatory after the window closes. I see retooling and competitive basketball though most likely not championship asperations unless everything breaks our way with Amare.

We won't have cap space if we so what you're saying. Right now we have $12M on the cap that year; JR is probably going to be resigned for about $5M after this season bringing our total to $17M; if Melo takes no paycut he'll be resigned for $24M bringing out total top $ 41M; even if Amare and Tyson take 50% paycuts they'll still earn $12M and $7M each for a total salary figure of at least $60M. That doesn't include any draft picks or MLE free agents. Basically, if we want to retool in three years Dolan would have to agree to blow this team up and let each of our big 3 leave.

Cap space isn't really what im looking at more so flexibility. Melo isn't going to get 24mil the first yr of his renewed contract. More like 16-20mil depending on the length. Flexibility will come from Tyson and Amare though. With there contracts expiring the GM would be in position to either resign or check the market. If Amare is brought back at 12mil that means he has been at the very least pretty solid for us. If there are more attractive pieces we can go after them if not we can resign Tyson and/or Amare. If they are brought back that still leaves us with Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Smith if resigned, Novak, 2 first rd draft picks, which is still a competitive team. The guys we would be looking to replace are Kidd, Camby, KT, Wallace, Pablo, Brewer if he doesn't stick.

To continue to rebuild around Melo if all it equals is first round or second round exits is futile. Think of the Atlanta Hawks hanging on to Joe Johnson and while Melo may not stand to get that kind of extension on his next contract, making $16-20mil is still a decent chunk of change.

Let's say Amar'e and Chandler take paycuts that average $12/yr. I'll go low end first year starting salary

$16
$12
$12

That's $40mil and Shump would be due a new deal. If he's what we think he is, he's getting Gallo money right? So might as well add roughly another $8mil minimum

Now we're at $48mil and Novak is on the books at $4mil.

Now we're at $52mmil but wait J.R. Smith gave us the 5 finger LOYALTY discount, we know he's going to get at least a 3yr deal from us Novak money if not more

Now we're at $56mil minimum and the cap is say $63mil in 3yrs. We have no starting point guard, no bench, no depth, no future assets in the fold to improve roster, and some of the usual suspects that have already peaked in results on this team.

We're in a extremely dire situation going forward, maybe worse than coming out of the early 2000 era rebuild.

newyorknewyork wrote:

VCoug wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:This team has a 2 yr window to win it all. But the rebuilding process after is being a bit exaggerated. Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Jr Smith, Novak are all under 30. Melo, Amare, Tyson, Kidd, Camby all come off the books. Melo will be resigned. Tyson and Amare will most likley be resigned with pay cuts. Or The knicks will go after other free agents if Amare is done. The team will have a good amount of cap flexibility to refill depth lost. They will have 2 first rd draft picks out of the next 3 yrs added to the roster at this time. And will have the rest of there draft picks for the remaining yrs if no trades are made.

I don't see the rebuilding purgatory after the window closes. I see retooling and competitive basketball though most likely not championship asperations unless everything breaks our way with Amare.

We won't have cap space if we so what you're saying. Right now we have $12M on the cap that year; JR is probably going to be resigned for about $5M after this season bringing our total to $17M; if Melo takes no paycut he'll be resigned for $24M bringing out total top $ 41M; even if Amare and Tyson take 50% paycuts they'll still earn $12M and $7M each for a total salary figure of at least $60M. That doesn't include any draft picks or MLE free agents. Basically, if we want to retool in three years Dolan would have to agree to blow this team up and let each of our big 3 leave.

Cap space isn't really what im looking at more so flexibility. Melo isn't going to get 24mil the first yr of his renewed contract. More like 16-20mil depending on the length. Flexibility will come from Tyson and Amare though. With there contracts expiring the GM would be in position to either resign or check the market. If Amare is brought back at 12mil that means he has been at the very least pretty solid for us. If there are more attractive pieces we can go after them if not we can resign Tyson and/or Amare. If they are brought back that still leaves us with Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Smith if resigned, Novak, 2 first rd draft picks, which is still a competitive team. The guys we would be looking to replace are Kidd, Camby, KT, Wallace, Pablo, Brewer if he doesn't stick.

How do we have flexibility without cap space? And why are any of those guys taking a paycut at 31/32 when it's likely the last big payday of their careers?

VCoug wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

VCoug wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:This team has a 2 yr window to win it all. But the rebuilding process after is being a bit exaggerated. Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Jr Smith, Novak are all under 30. Melo, Amare, Tyson, Kidd, Camby all come off the books. Melo will be resigned. Tyson and Amare will most likley be resigned with pay cuts. Or The knicks will go after other free agents if Amare is done. The team will have a good amount of cap flexibility to refill depth lost. They will have 2 first rd draft picks out of the next 3 yrs added to the roster at this time. And will have the rest of there draft picks for the remaining yrs if no trades are made.

I don't see the rebuilding purgatory after the window closes. I see retooling and competitive basketball though most likely not championship asperations unless everything breaks our way with Amare.

We won't have cap space if we so what you're saying. Right now we have $12M on the cap that year; JR is probably going to be resigned for about $5M after this season bringing our total to $17M; if Melo takes no paycut he'll be resigned for $24M bringing out total top $ 41M; even if Amare and Tyson take 50% paycuts they'll still earn $12M and $7M each for a total salary figure of at least $60M. That doesn't include any draft picks or MLE free agents. Basically, if we want to retool in three years Dolan would have to agree to blow this team up and let each of our big 3 leave.

Cap space isn't really what im looking at more so flexibility. Melo isn't going to get 24mil the first yr of his renewed contract. More like 16-20mil depending on the length. Flexibility will come from Tyson and Amare though. With there contracts expiring the GM would be in position to either resign or check the market. If Amare is brought back at 12mil that means he has been at the very least pretty solid for us. If there are more attractive pieces we can go after them if not we can resign Tyson and/or Amare. If they are brought back that still leaves us with Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Smith if resigned, Novak, 2 first rd draft picks, which is still a competitive team. The guys we would be looking to replace are Kidd, Camby, KT, Wallace, Pablo, Brewer if he doesn't stick.

How do we have flexibility without cap space? And why are any of those guys taking a paycut at 31/32 when it's likely the last big payday of their careers?

We would have cap space as under your senario even with Melo making 24mil his first yr which he wouldn't be making. We would have 41mil salary cap which is well under the cap before resigning Tyson and Amare. But again what im looking at is the flexibility to decide if we want to keep Tyson and Amare or if we want to go another direction depending on whats in the free agency market. If they aren't taking pay cuts that means they have been productive and have been winning. There would be no need to rebuild at that point anyway.

So while a championship window is probably only 2yrs depending on how we replace Kidd & Camby. Competitive basketball can be maintained for the next 6-7yrs.

3G4G wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

VCoug wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:This team has a 2 yr window to win it all. But the rebuilding process after is being a bit exaggerated. Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Jr Smith, Novak are all under 30. Melo, Amare, Tyson, Kidd, Camby all come off the books. Melo will be resigned. Tyson and Amare will most likley be resigned with pay cuts. Or The knicks will go after other free agents if Amare is done. The team will have a good amount of cap flexibility to refill depth lost. They will have 2 first rd draft picks out of the next 3 yrs added to the roster at this time. And will have the rest of there draft picks for the remaining yrs if no trades are made.

I don't see the rebuilding purgatory after the window closes. I see retooling and competitive basketball though most likely not championship asperations unless everything breaks our way with Amare.

We won't have cap space if we so what you're saying. Right now we have $12M on the cap that year; JR is probably going to be resigned for about $5M after this season bringing our total to $17M; if Melo takes no paycut he'll be resigned for $24M bringing out total top $ 41M; even if Amare and Tyson take 50% paycuts they'll still earn $12M and $7M each for a total salary figure of at least $60M. That doesn't include any draft picks or MLE free agents. Basically, if we want to retool in three years Dolan would have to agree to blow this team up and let each of our big 3 leave.

Cap space isn't really what im looking at more so flexibility. Melo isn't going to get 24mil the first yr of his renewed contract. More like 16-20mil depending on the length. Flexibility will come from Tyson and Amare though. With there contracts expiring the GM would be in position to either resign or check the market. If Amare is brought back at 12mil that means he has been at the very least pretty solid for us. If there are more attractive pieces we can go after them if not we can resign Tyson and/or Amare. If they are brought back that still leaves us with Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Smith if resigned, Novak, 2 first rd draft picks, which is still a competitive team. The guys we would be looking to replace are Kidd, Camby, KT, Wallace, Pablo, Brewer if he doesn't stick.

To continue to rebuild around Melo if all it equals is first round or second round exits is futile. Think of the Atlanta Hawks hanging on to Joe Johnson and while Melo may not stand to get that kind of extension on his next contract, making $16-20mil is still a decent chunk of change.

Let's say Amar'e and Chandler take paycuts that average $12/yr. I'll go low end first year starting salary

$16
$12
$12

That's $40mil and Shump would be due a new deal. If he's what we think he is, he's getting Gallo money right? So might as well add roughly another $8mil minimum

Now we're at $48mil and Novak is on the books at $4mil.

Now we're at $52mmil but wait J.R. Smith gave us the 5 finger LOYALTY discount, we know he's going to get at least a 3yr deal from us Novak money if not more

Now we're at $56mil minimum and the cap is say $63mil in 3yrs. We have no starting point guard, no bench, no depth, no future assets in the fold to improve roster, and some of the usual suspects that have already peaked in results on this team.

We're in a extremely dire situation going forward, maybe worse than coming out of the early 2000 era rebuild.

So now its automatic that Melo won't get out of the first rd? If Shumpert becomes what we think he is doesn't that make us an even stronger team and give us like a 25yr old stud? You are forgetting our 2 first rd draft picks, and the fact that we would have all our first rd picks going forward.

I don't see how Felton, Shumpert, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Smith, Novak and 2 first rd picks is a dire situation. Eisley, Houston, Sprewell, Weatherspoon, Thomas, Ward, Anderson, Knight locked up for 4-5yrs is a dire situation. If that is a comparable to you then there is nothing else to talk about.

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Competitive basketball can be maintained for the next 6-7yrs.

We had that with the previous team except more flexibility

Not guranteed, but it could have been. Ironic you would be banking on the same PG and PF that you don't think will get it done today. The organization went in another direction so be it. You can cry over it or you can move on.

Im all for moving on from the past but you have to admit that we might have only 2-3 years to have very good seasons then its back to the drawing boards. also we havent exactly had a great history in the draft

newyorknewyork wrote:

IrishKnickFan wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Competitive basketball can be maintained for the next 6-7yrs.

We had that with the previous team except more flexibility

Not guranteed, but it could have been. Ironic you would be banking on the same PG and PF that you don't think will get it done today. The organization went in another direction so be it. You can cry over it or you can move on.

Im all for moving on from the past but you have to admit that we might have only 2-3 years to have very good seasons then its back to the drawing boards. also we havent exactly had a great history in the draft

I don't see how we are back to the drawing boards after 2-3yrs if Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Smith, Novak are all under 30 today.Do you think that they are all going to implode in the next 2-3yrs?

Well we have to wait and see how we do the nest couple years since in 3 years all those guys will be free agents but they will be in their 30's

newyorknewyork wrote:

IrishKnickFan wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Competitive basketball can be maintained for the next 6-7yrs.

We had that with the previous team except more flexibility

Not guranteed, but it could have been. Ironic you would be banking on the same PG and PF that you don't think will get it done today. The organization went in another direction so be it. You can cry over it or you can move on.

Im all for moving on from the past but you have to admit that we might have only 2-3 years to have very good seasons then its back to the drawing boards. also we havent exactly had a great history in the draft

I don't see how we are back to the drawing boards after 2-3yrs if Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Smith, Novak are all under 30 today.Do you think that they are all going to implode in the next 2-3yrs?

is that team something you want to build around 2 years from now? at some point you are going to need to start clearing out the high salaried guys who just can't get it done and start with new guys, who can make their own imprint on the team.... to keep recycling melo into the fold hoping he will finally get someone to carry him to a ring so fans can say, "see, he finally did it, he is great"....isn't going to work, at some point you are going to have to do a complete purge.... I am not trying to bash melo or be a prick here, but how long are you going to keep paying melo max money hoping he can get it done, to keep him in the fold you are not going to be able to really go young, otherwise why not just do it now... most of you guys agree this is the way to build around melo.. so if it doesn't work, time to hit the reset button and do a complete purge of the high priced talent on this team...

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

IrishKnickFan wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Competitive basketball can be maintained for the next 6-7yrs.

We had that with the previous team except more flexibility

Not guranteed, but it could have been. Ironic you would be banking on the same PG and PF that you don't think will get it done today. The organization went in another direction so be it. You can cry over it or you can move on.

Im all for moving on from the past but you have to admit that we might have only 2-3 years to have very good seasons then its back to the drawing boards. also we havent exactly had a great history in the draft

I don't see how we are back to the drawing boards after 2-3yrs if Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Smith, Novak are all under 30 today.Do you think that they are all going to implode in the next 2-3yrs?

is that team something you want to build around 2 years from now? at some point you are going to need to start clearing out the high salaried guys who just can't get it done and start with new guys, who can make their own imprint on the team.... to keep recycling melo into the fold hoping he will finally get someone to carry him to a ring so fans can say, "see, he finally did it, he is great"....isn't going to work, at some point you are going to have to do a complete purge.... I am not trying to bash melo or be a prick here, but how long are you going to keep paying melo max money hoping he can get it done, to keep him in the fold you are not going to be able to really go young, otherwise why not just do it now... most of you guys agree this is the way to build around melo.. so if it doesn't work, time to hit the reset button and do a complete purge of the high priced talent on this team...

Good Points. I support the team we have now but if they dont get it done in 3 years then you have to rebuild because resigning these guys to big deals in their mid 30's is a isiah type move

3G4G wrote:

IrishKnickFan wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Competitive basketball can be maintained for the next 6-7yrs.

We had that with the previous team except more flexibility

Not guranteed, but it could have been. Ironic you would be banking on the same PG and PF that you don't think will get it done today. The organization went in another direction so be it. You can cry over it or you can move on.

Im all for moving on from the past but you have to admit that we might have only 2-3 years to have very good seasons then its back to the drawing boards. also we havent exactly had a great history in the draft

Wasn't banking on Felton or Amar'e per say but was banking on maybe turning Felton/Amar'e and or picks/AR//Fields/Douglas/ into the missing/better pieces. We had a winning record despite all the injuries/trade rumors/unfamiliarity/new style of play. I also wanted the coach swapped out a long time ago not last year.

Don't even try and flip this either. It's the other way around. Most fans said the team was going nowhere which had Felton/Amar'e, therefore the team needed a facelift. It needed to STARFUDGE at all costs no matter what. I always begged to differ.

I was fine with the team going forward since they only played about 40gms together factoring injuries. I wanted more games played for an official data analysis and what the team looked like in the playoffs. Surely they could have accomplished getting swept by Boston 4-0. What do you think?

When Felton was traded he was being talked about something fierce. Matter of fact most fans were disgusted with Felton's point play because they felt he iced the kids out too much, playing patty cake with Amar'e in the PNR.

Amare was not going to be moved or turned into anything. Once he was signed he was a knick until his contract ran out so automatically there is a flaw in that plan. Gallo and Wilson were also going to be re-upped, Fields would look to be reupped the following yr. The team needed a superstar to put along side of Gallo, Wilson, Fields, Amare, Felton at eiher Center or SG as well as adding in more depth in order for it to be a championship calibre team. The odds of that superstar falling to the Knicks lap was slim to none. I'm guessing the Knicks org felt they can go for the superstar like Melo now and then look to find the Gallo, Wilson and Felton type pieces later on.

I'm guessing they felt it is a lot harder to land a guy like Melo then it is to land guys like Gallo and Chandler etc..

Denver basically has Gallo, Chandler, Mozgov, Lawson, our draft picks, added Iggy and Mcgee. Should I be expecting them to be chasing a championship?

IrishKnickFan wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Competitive basketball can be maintained for the next 6-7yrs.

We had that with the previous team except more flexibility

Not guranteed, but it could have been. Ironic you would be banking on the same PG and PF that you don't think will get it done today. The organization went in another direction so be it. You can cry over it or you can move on.

Im all for moving on from the past but you have to admit that we might have only 2-3 years to have very good seasons then its back to the drawing boards. also we havent exactly had a great history in the draft

CrushAlot wrote:

IrishKnickFan wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Competitive basketball can be maintained for the next 6-7yrs.

We had that with the previous team except more flexibility

Not guranteed, but it could have been. Ironic you would be banking on the same PG and PF that you don't think will get it done today. The organization went in another direction so be it. You can cry over it or you can move on.

Im all for moving on from the past but you have to admit that we might have only 2-3 years to have very good seasons then its back to the drawing boards. also we havent exactly had a great history in the draft

I don't think the Knicks are considered contenders if they didn't make the Melo trade and moves since. You have to remember that guys have said they came to NY to play w/Melo and Amare. Tyson wasn't coming to play with just Amare. Last year would have sucked. Gallo missed 23/66 games. Felton was fat. Amare was broke down. Moz is a back up center. The 2014 first rounder hasn't come into play yet. Not a lot from the past to pine away for if you ask me and I hated how much the Knicks gave up.