3G4G wrote:

GodNa7ion wrote:

3G4G wrote:

GodNa7ion wrote:TS% and other metric stats make players look worse than are

Melo not only scores buckets but he's a headache for opponents, a player coaches have to gameplan around

Gallo, Lin, etc..... none of them were that

Our team is built to win it all and I think we can

Miami game planed around Lin and New Jersey most certainly intensified their play against us when they played him for a second time.

Why let what took place or facts get in the way.

As far as Gallo goes he was part of the system teams had to game plan around as he helped stretch the floor for PNR play.

I think teams prefer Melo get busy as much as he desires, therefore it throws the rest of the team off if he Melo Balls It too much.

Miami didnt game plan around Lin, Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole locked him up and he was exposed, they didnt buy into the hype and it showed

New Jersey didnt do much either, Lin had a good game just got lit up by D-Will

Gallo was never a legit option to lead us to a title, we can all agree, and that system didn't work before so why would it work now.

Any coach would take a Melo and build around him properly and win a title doing so, remember they dont **** up 2 inbound passes in Denver and they beat LA go to the Finals and then beat Orlando most likely again thats an "if" but Melo-Ball works, Kobe-Ball works, Durant-Ball works and LeBron-Ball works. Judge Melo on what he's about to do because he's a changed man and if I'm wrong hey **** it

I'll say this one more time after posting the Meat & Potatoes below

It won't show up in the box score, but the Heat privately track the number of times that their players "contain" or corral opposing penetrators away from the painted area. Empirically, Anthony has done this one task better than anybody they've ever had in a Heat uniform.

So when Spoelstra fielded questions for about 10 minutes about prepping for Lin, he deliberately left Anthony's name out of the discussion. But the coach wouldn't get off so easy. When Anthony's name was brought up as a potential Lin-stopper when the media session winded down, Spoelstra smiled and declared that the questioning was over. He quickly scampered away from the horde of reporters, before finally turning around and offering his response.

"You're getting in too deep now," Spoelstra said to the reporters with a grin. "I'm not going to talk about that, but I will say that you're onto something."

Say no more.

The Knicks deploy the pick-and-roll more aggressively than most and coincidentally, the Heat defend the pick-and-roll more aggressively than most. For close observers of the Heat's defensive system, it's no surprise that the Heat plan on using Anthony to swarm Lin out on the perimeter. With Anthony, who covers more ground than a Boeing 747, the Heat have a lengthy center who can disrupt Lin beyond the three-point arc in a pick-and-roll and then retreat quickly to the paint.

During Wednesday's game against the Atlanta Hawks, almost all of Lin's screens were set by Knicks center Tyson Chandler, who will be guarded by Anthony. This plays right into the "something" that Spoelstra wouldn't elaborate in detail in that moment. But earlier in the conversation, Spoelstra spoke about the Heat's general game plan.

"We're going to try to bring our game to them, not necessarily to react and adapt to their pick-and-roll game," Spoelstra said. "We'll continue to play to our identity and to our style, which is to be disruptive."

Lin's final line: 1 for 11 from the field, eight points, three assists -- a long way from the 23.9 points and 9.2 assists he had been averaging over his first 11 games in the Knicks' rotation, when he breathed immeasurable life into a team that was floundering.

"First of all, he deserves all of the credit he's been given," Wade said. "We knew it was going to be a tough task guarding him. ... He's a good player, but we put a lot of pressure on him and it was a success."

"I'm sure they were all geeked up for him," Knicks coach Mike D'Antoni said of the Heat defense against Lin. "And they took the challenge and they did a great job. It's hard to be Peter Pan every day."

WHY LET WHAT TOOK PLACE OR FACTS GET IN THE WAY

You're not built for this, sorry

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

TheloniusMonk wrote:Men lie. Women lie. Numbers don't. Thanx for that breakdown, MKS. Had no idea Melo's shooting percentage was ahead of Kobe's and Peirce's. Nice.

IUf numbers dont lie--Ill give you Carmelo for Kobe-- by the #s its a deal right?

Not if you look at their win shares

Bonn, talk about pathetic! Well all else fails, lets go to the all encompassing Win Shares.

Melo the last 2 years had a WS of 157 and 160. Pretty good, no?

Do numbers lie?

fishmike wrote:ahh... another "lets desperately quantify Melo's greatness despite the lack of winning" threads.

How about these #s since we are focused on individual accomplishments... count how many all NBA, all NBA defense, MVP votes... you know, the individual honors in the NBA. How about comparing those for Melo/Kobe/Wade? Should be interesting..... looking forward to the indepth analysis

How about PP? How many individual accolades does he have? All NBA, all NBA defense, MVP votes... you know, the individual honors in the NBA?

Nada

Wade is in a different league - read my post. Kobe is far better than Melo but not because of offense. Even with some of the good arguments made by non rooster posters like DK, I don't see a big offensive difference. HOWEVER, IF YOU READ MY POST, I SAID THAT KOBE IS CERTAINLY BETTER OVERALL.

KnicksFE wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:ahh... another "lets desperately quantify Melo's greatness despite the lack of winning" threads.

How about these #s since we are focused on individual accomplishments... count how many all NBA, all NBA defense, MVP votes... you know, the individual honors in the NBA. How about comparing those for Melo/Kobe/Wade? Should be interesting..... looking forward to the indepth analysis

fish, go look at some of my post.. I have been screaming this for weeks.... I know winning a ring is hard, not everyone can win a ring, but what about the individual accolades, I mean at some point, greatness is recognized.. it happened with Barkley when he won MVP, no ring, but many accolades..

I ask, show me one scoring title, one first team all NBA, one mvp, one anything that melo has won?

all I keep getting is.. "best pure scorer".. and again, i ask how do we come to that conclusion..and I get, because he can post up and score.... LOL.. go figure man..

Totally true, let me also add that offense is just half the game, Kobe and Wade are two of the best two way player of their generation, those guys were able to DOMINATE the game defensively as well as offensively during their prime years.

While Melo is one of the best versatile scorers in the NBA, his lack of defense and average passing skills, really limit what his team can do offensively and defensively with him in the lineup.

I just don’t see how mrKnickShot can even compare those guys with Melo, does he even follow the NBA, or just video clips of Melo in youtube?

Did I compare Melo and Wade? Try to read a post before making silly comments.

dk7th wrote:

GodNa7ion wrote:

dk7th wrote:

GodNa7ion wrote:TS% and other metric stats make players look worse than are

Melo not only scores buckets but he's a headache for opponents, a player coaches have to gameplan around

Gallo, Lin, etc..... none of them were that

Our team is built to win it all and I think we can

i doubt the TS% stat was intentionally created to make players look worse than they are. do you sincerely believe that?

what it does do is tease out the value of certain players games so far as the type of scoring that helps the team rather than hurts the team. so while scoring points is important and in fact essential what is more important is HOW those points are scored.

this is why bryant and melo are such divisive figures. people see a certain kind of game from them-- lots of shots but not a lot of points per shot is perhaps another way of evaluating them-- and the TS% really backs that up.

I personally believe that, for example a player who shoots mostly contested jumpers will always have a lower TS% than a player getting wide open shots, that calls into question efficiency more so than analyzing how the shots are made

People say Durant is more efficient than Melo yet dont say he gets screens set for him and gets more open shots, Melo takes more contested shots but when Melo works off screens he's shooting like 52% or something and Durant shoots like 40 something % on contested jumpers. Then they forget about fast break points

I'm just saying I think film is the best way to analyze players, I hate numbers, the only numbers that matter at the final score and wins and losses, everything else should be analyzed off of film

firstly he has no business taking shots that are so contested that a pass wouldn't be a better choice. obviously when you go iso you are by definition going to have your shot contested more often than not... so how is that an effective strategy?

so far as screens i agree with you... but you have to wonder why the devil he hasn't learned to use screens and shoot off the dribble behind a screen REGULARLY and not just once in a blue moon. he is not very good as a catch and shoot guy... he kind of needs a dribble or two just to get in rhythm anyway, so why then can't he take a dribble or two with a screen set for him and have the option to make a pass to the roller. it baffles me no end. i mean do you REALLY think no coach has ever said that melo needs to incorporate the oldest play in the book and stop going iso? and why the devil did neither d'antoni or woodson get him to run a pick and roll with one of the great finishers we have in stat? again it makes zero sense... unless melo is so stubborn that he refuses to work pick and roll into his repertoire. it is one of my biggest peeves with his game... along with a lack of head and ball fakes to draw fouls.

believe it or not i hate numbers too, except the ones that seem to reflect what i study about players. speaking of study, the advent of DVR/tivo allows all of us to study film in a way. i am always slow to join postgame chats because i am busy replaying certain sequences for the sake of breaking down a player's game. this is a luxury that any avid b-ball fan should take advantage of.

Good analysis.

He does average 7.8 FTA's which is solid.

Not using him in the PnR killed me.

He certainly takes horrible shots and as you have state so does Kobe. They are both pretty frustrating (kobe - offensively). I think that Melo can be more efficient and it really frustrates me when he shoots so many contested jumpers. He does this to shoot himself into games but there certainly is a better way. Anyway, while Kobe frustrates the hell out of people offensively, he is also streaky and we all have seen how good he can be.

I want to see more from him this season. Yes, we should not be looking for this after 9 years - I hope he changes this part of his game unlike Kobe who never did.

People hate the Kobe comparison (OFFENSIVELY) but it is a good one. Even if Kobe is the better offensive player. People can't stand it because Kobe has all those rings being a selfish prick. His coach hated him and tried to get him traded numerous times and Shaq hated him because when you have shaq on your team, you should not be such a selfish player.

People don't realize that I am not a very big fan of Melo. I have never said he is a top 10 player and he was far from my first choice as far as trades or FA's. But he is here and people hate him for many wrong reasons and many of the arguments are just way too biased.

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

fishmike wrote:ahh... another "lets desperately quantify Melo's greatness despite the lack of winning" threads.

How about these #s since we are focused on individual accomplishments... count how many all NBA, all NBA defense, MVP votes... you know, the individual honors in the NBA. How about comparing those for Melo/Kobe/Wade? Should be interesting..... looking forward to the indepth analysis

How about PP? How many individual accolades does he have? All NBA, all NBA defense, MVP votes... you know, the individual honors in the NBA?

Nada

Wade is in a different league - read my post. Kobe is far better than Melo but not because of offense. Even with some of the good arguments made by non rooster posters like DK, I don't see a big offensive difference. HOWEVER, IF YOU READ MY POST, I SAID THAT KOBE IS CERTAINLY BETTER OVERALL.

You see that shiny piece of hardware in his right hand? It's referred to as the Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award.

Get yourself familiar with it

Wonderful. He had a good series being the primary scorer on the team - he is their third best player. You can do better then that - to pick an award for a series.

Are you 10 years old? Your posts are extremely annoying. Grow the phuck up!

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Wonderful. He had a good series being the primary scorer on the team - he is their third best player. You can do better then that - to pick an award for a series.

Are you 10 years old? Your posts are extremely annoying. Grow the phuck up!

So you're minimizing an NBA Finals MVP accomplishment? Pierce wasn't their 3rd best player when he won the award. You realize he got this over Kobe right?

So what. Kobe lost, did not have a better team and Kobe is not that much different than PP. He had a won and had a good series.

I don't judge a player on 4 wins. I don't judge Melo on his final 4 either though its much harder to win an NCAA championship than an nba title.

How many season MVP's? 1st team all nba? All defense? Anything? But you know what? He is still an excellent player and take away that one series, he is still an excellent player.

tkf wrote:

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Wonderful. He had a good series being the primary scorer on the team - he is their third best player. You can do better then that - to pick an award for a series.

Are you 10 years old? Your posts are extremely annoying. Grow the phuck up!

So you're minimizing an NBA Finals MVP accomplishment? Pierce wasn't their 3rd best player when he won the award. You realize he got this over Kobe right?

3g, this guy is suspect with his post.. it is funny how he big ups dk and nalod when they are pretty much saying the same thing we are, just with a different tone.. he then resorts to the name calling, the silly little comments like being stuck on someones scrotum, and isn't it funny how this guys continually brings up gallo's name, yet I have yet to do so... it is the typical loser argument mentality... when he doesn't have a point, resort to name calling, and asking people are they 10 years old...

he then marginalizes pierce finals MVP as being a series award, just a series award... LOL.. but he was creaming his pants as carmelo was dropping threes vs some 3rd world country..... go figure...

TKF, you can use your cronies to make yourself feel better.

The scrotum line was specifically for you since your way of posting is to attack the poster with "Melo Jock Rider ..."

I don't post that way.

Nalod is a dissenting poster very often but he makes sense in his arguments and is fair. We don't have to agree but we certainly don't have to be dumb.

3G like you, enjoy attacking the poster. He did it from the first day he posted. Perhaps you are the same person, who knows.

I try to have cordial arguments but hot flamers like you do not. Can I be derisive at times? Sure but can you not be derisive ever? I don't think so.

When an argument is weak - resorting to ad hominem attacks is one way to deal with it. Am I guilty of it? I am sure that I am at times but that is not my MO.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

TheloniusMonk wrote:Men lie. Women lie. Numbers don't. Thanx for that breakdown, MKS. Had no idea Melo's shooting percentage was ahead of Kobe's and Peirce's. Nice.

IUf numbers dont lie--Ill give you Carmelo for Kobe-- by the #s its a deal right?

Not if you look at their win shares

Bonn, talk about pathetic! Well all else fails, lets go to the all encompassing Win Shares.

Melo the last 2 years had a WS of 157 and 160. Pretty good, no?

Do numbers lie?

2 years ago it was .127.
.160 was an anomaly for Melo but is pretty good, yes. Wins Produced, which I should have cited earlier, doesn't paint a good picture of Melo last year. I would not make a big deal one way or the other about only a one season sample.