mrKnickShot wrote:

dk7th wrote:nash wants to win and he stands a better chance doing that with an aging bryant and a recovering howard... oh and gasol.

as bryant ages he will need to morph into more of a jumpshooter, although i don't think he is effective as a catch and shoot guy which could be a problem. nash is already a great jumpshooter. i see them taking turns as drivers and shooters, preserving each other. if bryant refuses to adapt his game then yes it will get ugly.

nash coming here would have been great, since he loves new york and i believe has a place here.

but how would nash solved the biggest problem of all: getting one undersized 4 masquerading as a 3 and a 3 masquerading as a 4 or 5 to be productive with and for one another? the melo stoudemire pairing is just plain impossible. and woodson does not have the ability to work that out.

additionally, how can the knicks have a defensive identity when their two most expensive players are not defensive-minded?

this team must have looked pretty whack for nash not to want to come here to his second home.

Carmelo played very solid D for Woody and Amare actually tried - thats a start.

Also, you are ignoring the main problem ... The Amare and Tyson pairing. I am not sure how but with some fans, this goes under the radar.

Kobe will not change and it will get ugly. However, perhaps the Lakers have too much talent to fail. How will the opposing teams get any rebounds? I am also not sure how Howard and Gasol will co-exist. If anyone can make it happen its Nash. Amare should give 50 million of his bloated contract to him.

that is a red herring and does not speak to the heart of the problem.

stoudemire came here first as part of a grand plan to unite him with a pick and roll coach and pick and roll point guard.

carmelo forces his way here and that all gets thrown out the window.

i don't like that stat was shunted aside for someone who has accomplished less but is somehow regarded as a more valuable player.

i don't like how he became the whipping boy for this team.

and i don't like how he is the problem when talking about chemistry.

the more valuable player should be the one who works to make others around him better. if melo is the more valuable player of the two then he should STFU and do what he can to make stoudemire comfortable if not better. he should be deferring as much as possible to let stat get his and work on defense and rebounding, and getting to the line when he goes iso, not jacking up long 2s. he should be learning how to run the simplest play in basketball, the pick and roll.

dk7th wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

dk7th wrote:nash wants to win and he stands a better chance doing that with an aging bryant and a recovering howard... oh and gasol.

as bryant ages he will need to morph into more of a jumpshooter, although i don't think he is effective as a catch and shoot guy which could be a problem. nash is already a great jumpshooter. i see them taking turns as drivers and shooters, preserving each other. if bryant refuses to adapt his game then yes it will get ugly.

nash coming here would have been great, since he loves new york and i believe has a place here.

but how would nash solved the biggest problem of all: getting one undersized 4 masquerading as a 3 and a 3 masquerading as a 4 or 5 to be productive with and for one another? the melo stoudemire pairing is just plain impossible. and woodson does not have the ability to work that out.

additionally, how can the knicks have a defensive identity when their two most expensive players are not defensive-minded?

this team must have looked pretty whack for nash not to want to come here to his second home.

Carmelo played very solid D for Woody and Amare actually tried - thats a start.

Also, you are ignoring the main problem ... The Amare and Tyson pairing. I am not sure how but with some fans, this goes under the radar.

Kobe will not change and it will get ugly. However, perhaps the Lakers have too much talent to fail. How will the opposing teams get any rebounds? I am also not sure how Howard and Gasol will co-exist. If anyone can make it happen its Nash. Amare should give 50 million of his bloated contract to him.

that is a red herring and does not speak to the heart of the problem.

stoudemire came here first as part of a grand plan to unite him with a pick and roll coach and pick and roll point guard.

carmelo forces his way here and that all gets thrown out the window.

i don't like that stat was shunted aside for someone who has accomplished less but is somehow regarded as a more valuable player.

i don't like how he became the whipping boy for this team.

and i don't like how he is the problem when talking about chemistry.

the more valuable player should be the one who works to make others around him better. if melo is the more valuable player of the two then he should STFU and do what he can to make stoudemire comfortable if not better. he should be deferring as much as possible to let stat get his and work on defense and rebounding, and getting to the line when he goes iso, not jacking up long 2s. he should be learning how to run the simplest play in basketball, the pick and roll.

dk7th wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

dk7th wrote:nash wants to win and he stands a better chance doing that with an aging bryant and a recovering howard... oh and gasol.

as bryant ages he will need to morph into more of a jumpshooter, although i don't think he is effective as a catch and shoot guy which could be a problem. nash is already a great jumpshooter. i see them taking turns as drivers and shooters, preserving each other. if bryant refuses to adapt his game then yes it will get ugly.

nash coming here would have been great, since he loves new york and i believe has a place here.

but how would nash solved the biggest problem of all: getting one undersized 4 masquerading as a 3 and a 3 masquerading as a 4 or 5 to be productive with and for one another? the melo stoudemire pairing is just plain impossible. and woodson does not have the ability to work that out.

additionally, how can the knicks have a defensive identity when their two most expensive players are not defensive-minded?

this team must have looked pretty whack for nash not to want to come here to his second home.

Carmelo played very solid D for Woody and Amare actually tried - thats a start.

Also, you are ignoring the main problem ... The Amare and Tyson pairing. I am not sure how but with some fans, this goes under the radar.

Kobe will not change and it will get ugly. However, perhaps the Lakers have too much talent to fail. How will the opposing teams get any rebounds? I am also not sure how Howard and Gasol will co-exist. If anyone can make it happen its Nash. Amare should give 50 million of his bloated contract to him.

that is a red herring and does not speak to the heart of the problem.

stoudemire came here first as part of a grand plan to unite him with a pick and roll coach and pick and roll point guard.

carmelo forces his way here and that all gets thrown out the window.

i don't like that stat was shunted aside for someone who has accomplished less but is somehow regarded as a more valuable player.

i don't like how he became the whipping boy for this team.

and i don't like how he is the problem when talking about chemistry.

the more valuable player should be the one who works to make others around him better. if melo is the more valuable player of the two then he should STFU and do what he can to make stoudemire comfortable if not better. he should be deferring as much as possible to let stat get his and work on defense and rebounding, and getting to the line when he goes iso, not jacking up long 2s. he should be learning how to run the simplest play in basketball, the pick and roll.

Stat makes others better? How? With his 1:2.5 Assist to TO ratio?

Nash made Stat better - much much better. MDA/Felton made STAT better (at least for a little while)

Melo is considered more valuable because the market determined that he is. Nobody wanted Stat.

Melo is considered better because while Stat was once really good, he has had many health issues, missed both playoff series (practically), does not play ANY defense and can't even knock down his used to be deadly open J.

There is nothing more that I would love than to eat crow about Stat. I actually think he might fly out of the gate but I fear what PHX feared - that he won't hold up.

NUPE wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Stat makes others better? How? With his 1:2.5 Assist to TO ratio?

Nash made Stat better - much much better. MDA/Felton made STAT better (at least for a little while)

Melo is considered more valuable because the market determined that he is. Nobody wanted Stat.

Melo is considered better because while Stat was once really good, he has had many health issues, missed both playoff series (practically), does not play ANY defense and can't even knock down his used to be deadly open J.

There is nothing more that I would love than to eat crow about Stat. I actually think he might fly out of the gate but I fear what PHX feared - that he won't hold up.

This is the same STAT that was getting MVP consideration during 2010-11 season (as a Knick) and averages like 24 and 9 for his career?!?! You will be eating Crow. No worries. You credit Nash with making STAT good but somehow Nash was not able to turn the current crop of PHX big men into 25 ppg / 9 rebound monsters.... Just saying.

This no one wanted STAT / STAT is a bum parade is tripe.

How did Nash do the year that Stat was out? How was Marion with Nash? How the heck did Nash take last years CRAPPY team to the playoffs? WITH NOBODY!

Stat is not a bum and was an excellent player but injuries are catching up to him.

I do hope to eat crow.

holfresh wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

NUPE wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Stat makes others better? How? With his 1:2.5 Assist to TO ratio?

Nash made Stat better - much much better. MDA/Felton made STAT better (at least for a little while)

Melo is considered more valuable because the market determined that he is. Nobody wanted Stat.

Melo is considered better because while Stat was once really good, he has had many health issues, missed both playoff series (practically), does not play ANY defense and can't even knock down his used to be deadly open J.

There is nothing more that I would love than to eat crow about Stat. I actually think he might fly out of the gate but I fear what PHX feared - that he won't hold up.

This is the same STAT that was getting MVP consideration during 2010-11 season (as a Knick) and averages like 24 and 9 for his career?!?! You will be eating Crow. No worries. You credit Nash with making STAT good but somehow Nash was not able to turn the current crop of PHX big men into 25 ppg / 9 rebound monsters.... Just saying.

This no one wanted STAT / STAT is a bum parade is tripe.

How did Nash do the year that Stat was out? How was Marion with Nash? How the heck did Nash take last years CRAPPY team to the playoffs? WITH NOBODY!

Stat is not a bum and was an excellent player but injuries are catching up to him.

I do hope to eat crow.

I just looked up STAT's career averages and it seems like he has always had down years...Seems like before last year there were two separate times with PHX where he was out for big part of the season and bounced back playing high caliber ball...I just hope this is just one of those years...The thing is when a player gets close to 30, the tendency is to say he is done...I think it was 2004, Jeter had a slow start...He really didn't start putting things together until mid June..Everyone was saying he was done, its 2012...STAT has heart...He has been down before and has worked hard in the off season to get back...I'm not betting against him...

I appreciate everything you said, however, its not an age thing - its a mileage thing. He has had serious surgeries and has a back problem which is quite tricky.

Like I said, I won't be shocked if he flies out of the gate but I worry that it might not have staying power.

Also, if Woody will be pushing him defensively, that will be taxing on him as well.

Can he handle it? Can he hold up? I certainly hope so. If I were a betting man ...

NUPE wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

NUPE wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Stat makes others better? How? With his 1:2.5 Assist to TO ratio?

Nash made Stat better - much much better. MDA/Felton made STAT better (at least for a little while)

Melo is considered more valuable because the market determined that he is. Nobody wanted Stat.

Melo is considered better because while Stat was once really good, he has had many health issues, missed both playoff series (practically), does not play ANY defense and can't even knock down his used to be deadly open J.

There is nothing more that I would love than to eat crow about Stat. I actually think he might fly out of the gate but I fear what PHX feared - that he won't hold up.

This is the same STAT that was getting MVP consideration during 2010-11 season (as a Knick) and averages like 24 and 9 for his career?!?! You will be eating Crow. No worries. You credit Nash with making STAT good but somehow Nash was not able to turn the current crop of PHX big men into 25 ppg / 9 rebound monsters.... Just saying.

This no one wanted STAT / STAT is a bum parade is tripe.

How did Nash do the year that Stat was out? How was Marion with Nash? How the heck did Nash take last years CRAPPY team to the playoffs? WITH NOBODY!

Stat is not a bum and was an excellent player but injuries are catching up to him.

I do hope to eat crow.

Last I checked Gortat is a good big man and PHX did not make last years playoffs. Try again.

Nice! Just ignore my comment about Nash making the WCF's with Amare only playing 3 games that year. Gortat is 12th team all NBA?

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

dk7th wrote:nash wants to win and he stands a better chance doing that with an aging bryant and a recovering howard... oh and gasol.

as bryant ages he will need to morph into more of a jumpshooter, although i don't think he is effective as a catch and shoot guy which could be a problem. nash is already a great jumpshooter. i see them taking turns as drivers and shooters, preserving each other. if bryant refuses to adapt his game then yes it will get ugly.

nash coming here would have been great, since he loves new york and i believe has a place here.

but how would nash solved the biggest problem of all: getting one undersized 4 masquerading as a 3 and a 3 masquerading as a 4 or 5 to be productive with and for one another? the melo stoudemire pairing is just plain impossible. and woodson does not have the ability to work that out.

additionally, how can the knicks have a defensive identity when their two most expensive players are not defensive-minded?

this team must have looked pretty whack for nash not to want to come here to his second home.

Carmelo played very solid D for Woody and Amare actually tried - thats a start.

Also, you are ignoring the main problem ... The Amare and Tyson pairing. I am not sure how but with some fans, this goes under the radar.

Kobe will not change and it will get ugly. However, perhaps the Lakers have too much talent to fail. How will the opposing teams get any rebounds? I am also not sure how Howard and Gasol will co-exist. If anyone can make it happen its Nash. Amare should give 50 million of his bloated contract to him.

that is a red herring and does not speak to the heart of the problem.

stoudemire came here first as part of a grand plan to unite him with a pick and roll coach and pick and roll point guard.

carmelo forces his way here and that all gets thrown out the window.

i don't like that stat was shunted aside for someone who has accomplished less but is somehow regarded as a more valuable player.

i don't like how he became the whipping boy for this team.

and i don't like how he is the problem when talking about chemistry.

the more valuable player should be the one who works to make others around him better. if melo is the more valuable player of the two then he should STFU and do what he can to make stoudemire comfortable if not better. he should be deferring as much as possible to let stat get his and work on defense and rebounding, and getting to the line when he goes iso, not jacking up long 2s. he should be learning how to run the simplest play in basketball, the pick and roll.

Stoudemire was the back up plan. He came because of the money and had to have a reconilliation meeting with the coach prior to signing. The grand plan was LBJ and another star. Also, Stoudemire wasn't shoved aside. He got injured in the series against the Celtics and hasn't been the same since.

when you acquire a player in melo who basically occupies the same space and whose skills overlap a great deal with a player already here in stat-- instead of patiently waiting for a point guard upgrade over felton-- then yes that first acquired player has been displace, ie shunted aside. and it is worth repeating: "getting one undersized 4 masquerading as a 3 (this is hollinger's take on melo) and a 3 masquerading as a 4 or 5 (this is barkley's take on stat) to be productive with and for one another?"

lots of people wonder if the best thing to do is to have stat play the sixth man role. walt frazier has recently posed this as an idea.

tkf believes that this would be a public relations nightmare. but better that than watching a squad struggle to gel and in so doing underachieve. that would be an even worse public relations nightmare.

Defensively, solid defending the ball, has decent sleight of hand, and he attacks the glass very well. I think he needs to use the head fake more and look to kick it out more often after offensive boards. His help defense is non-existent. Confused, tendency to switch, and a lot of finger pointing. Doesn't get up on screens either and just generally seems to play defense when he feels like it. But in Iso situations he's at least average.

callmened wrote:This is another reason why i cant trust stat geeks like hollinger. Do u know who had the highest rated defensive efficiency last yr?

The immortal Beno udrih!!!!!

mrKnickShot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

dk7th wrote:nash wants to win and he stands a better chance doing that with an aging bryant and a recovering howard... oh and gasol.

as bryant ages he will need to morph into more of a jumpshooter, although i don't think he is effective as a catch and shoot guy which could be a problem. nash is already a great jumpshooter. i see them taking turns as drivers and shooters, preserving each other. if bryant refuses to adapt his game then yes it will get ugly.

nash coming here would have been great, since he loves new york and i believe has a place here.

but how would nash solved the biggest problem of all: getting one undersized 4 masquerading as a 3 and a 3 masquerading as a 4 or 5 to be productive with and for one another? the melo stoudemire pairing is just plain impossible. and woodson does not have the ability to work that out.

additionally, how can the knicks have a defensive identity when their two most expensive players are not defensive-minded?

this team must have looked pretty whack for nash not to want to come here to his second home.

Carmelo played very solid D for Woody and Amare actually tried - thats a start.

Also, you are ignoring the main problem ... The Amare and Tyson pairing. I am not sure how but with some fans, this goes under the radar.

Kobe will not change and it will get ugly. However, perhaps the Lakers have too much talent to fail. How will the opposing teams get any rebounds? I am also not sure how Howard and Gasol will co-exist. If anyone can make it happen its Nash. Amare should give 50 million of his bloated contract to him.

that is a red herring and does not speak to the heart of the problem.

stoudemire came here first as part of a grand plan to unite him with a pick and roll coach and pick and roll point guard.

carmelo forces his way here and that all gets thrown out the window.

i don't like that stat was shunted aside for someone who has accomplished less but is somehow regarded as a more valuable player.

i don't like how he became the whipping boy for this team.

and i don't like how he is the problem when talking about chemistry.

the more valuable player should be the one who works to make others around him better. if melo is the more valuable player of the two then he should STFU and do what he can to make stoudemire comfortable if not better. he should be deferring as much as possible to let stat get his and work on defense and rebounding, and getting to the line when he goes iso, not jacking up long 2s. he should be learning how to run the simplest play in basketball, the pick and roll.

Stat makes others better? How? With his 1:2.5 Assist to TO ratio?

Nash made Stat better - much much better. MDA/Felton made STAT better (at least for a little while)

Melo is considered more valuable because the market determined that he is. Nobody wanted Stat.

Melo is considered better because while Stat was once really good, he has had many health issues, missed both playoff series (practically), does not play ANY defense and can't even knock down his used to be deadly open J.

There is nothing more that I would love than to eat crow about Stat. I actually think he might fly out of the gate but I fear what PHX feared - that he won't hold up.

then we should have went hard after nash or sold the far, for an elite PG.. meaning we should have waited on chris paul, or went to the suns with a real nice offer for nash back then.....If nash made amare "much, much" better, then why not?

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

dk7th wrote:nash wants to win and he stands a better chance doing that with an aging bryant and a recovering howard... oh and gasol.

as bryant ages he will need to morph into more of a jumpshooter, although i don't think he is effective as a catch and shoot guy which could be a problem. nash is already a great jumpshooter. i see them taking turns as drivers and shooters, preserving each other. if bryant refuses to adapt his game then yes it will get ugly.

nash coming here would have been great, since he loves new york and i believe has a place here.

but how would nash solved the biggest problem of all: getting one undersized 4 masquerading as a 3 and a 3 masquerading as a 4 or 5 to be productive with and for one another? the melo stoudemire pairing is just plain impossible. and woodson does not have the ability to work that out.

additionally, how can the knicks have a defensive identity when their two most expensive players are not defensive-minded?

this team must have looked pretty whack for nash not to want to come here to his second home.

Carmelo played very solid D for Woody and Amare actually tried - thats a start.

Also, you are ignoring the main problem ... The Amare and Tyson pairing. I am not sure how but with some fans, this goes under the radar.

Kobe will not change and it will get ugly. However, perhaps the Lakers have too much talent to fail. How will the opposing teams get any rebounds? I am also not sure how Howard and Gasol will co-exist. If anyone can make it happen its Nash. Amare should give 50 million of his bloated contract to him.

that is a red herring and does not speak to the heart of the problem.

stoudemire came here first as part of a grand plan to unite him with a pick and roll coach and pick and roll point guard.

carmelo forces his way here and that all gets thrown out the window.

i don't like that stat was shunted aside for someone who has accomplished less but is somehow regarded as a more valuable player.

i don't like how he became the whipping boy for this team.

and i don't like how he is the problem when talking about chemistry.

the more valuable player should be the one who works to make others around him better. if melo is the more valuable player of the two then he should STFU and do what he can to make stoudemire comfortable if not better. he should be deferring as much as possible to let stat get his and work on defense and rebounding, and getting to the line when he goes iso, not jacking up long 2s. he should be learning how to run the simplest play in basketball, the pick and roll.

Stoudemire was the back up plan. He came because of the money and had to have a reconilliation meeting with the coach prior to signing. The grand plan was LBJ and another star. Also, Stoudemire wasn't shoved aside. He got injured in the series against the Celtics and hasn't been the same since.

when you acquire a player in melo who basically occupies the same space and whose skills overlap a great deal with a player already here in stat-- instead of patiently waiting for a point guard upgrade over felton-- then yes that first acquired player has been displace, ie shunted aside. and it is worth repeating: "getting one undersized 4 masquerading as a 3 (this is hollinger's take on melo) and a 3 masquerading as a 4 or 5 (this is barkley's take on stat) to be productive with and for one another?"

lots of people wonder if the best thing to do is to have stat play the sixth man role. walt frazier has recently posed this as an idea.

tkf believes that this would be a public relations nightmare. but better that than watching a squad struggle to gel and in so doing underachieve. that would be an even worse public relations nightmare.

I don't see this as a situation we can win.. it is pretty much lose-lose.... if they don't gel, it is a mess, if you put amare on the bench I think it kills any value he has and believe me, we may need to move one of these guys and we need their value to remain as is.... I mean look at the perception of both guys.. neither one seems to crack the top 10 on anyone's list, and they are among the highest paid guys in the league....