knickscity wrote:Iggy Lawson Javale Faried Dre Gallo in that order.

gallo was the second leading scorer on that team, the offense runs through he and lawson, now that will change a bit with iggy there, but to put mcgee and faried ahead of gallo just shows you are not being honest here...

knickscity wrote:I value a chance to win.

Melo provides that as the best player on the team.

Gallo provides help to a team that already has better players on it.

Really this is downright silly to even compare the two.

Melo is a top 15 player in the league.

No one knows what Gallo will become, but right now he's an above average role player.

and him being the best player on the team is debatable as an argument for amare can be made, easily.

Really this is downright silly to even compare the two.

silly in the way you are trying to compare them... you guys cry that melo should not take the blame because it is a TEAM game, yet you use the "who is better " rule when we talk about player impact and success...

but right now he's an above average role player.

call it what you want, I am not going to argue that, but he is a key player on denver, a starter and one of their leading scorers, since arriving in denver their team has had a better record than ours..

evidence is just not supporting your argument.

pretty simple, I am sure you can sit here and make the argument that carmelo is better than ginobili.. better scorer that is.. but give me ginobili any day over melo.. especially when trying to build a team with depth.

if you want a team where one player dominates the ball and you can get chills as he goes through his scoring streaks but never win anything significant.. then melo is your man....

if you want to win and build a team of "basketball players".... then it is not so crazy to think that someone else may find guys like gallo more appealing..

Melo is a top 15 player in the league.

that is pretty much equivalent to coming in 4th place in a race where only the top 3 place.... that top 15 player stuff is the most useless argument I have ever heard.. next to the myth of being the "best pure scorer"...

a top 15 player and believe me he is closer to 15, is not going to make that much more, if any, of an impact than a guy who is ranked 20 or 25 or even 30... the gap between the elite and the rest of the league is that huge.. which is why you need to win with a system, with players committed to playing in that system, devoted to being in peak shape, and devoted to playing team ball on both ends.... if you can't land one of those top dogs, you need to have a solid plan, one that includes a progression of improvement and not trying to cheat the system with shortcuts...

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:Iggy Lawson Javale Faried Dre Gallo in that order.

gallo was the second leading scorer on that team, the offense runs through he and lawson, now that will change a bit with iggy there, but to put mcgee and faried ahead of gallo just shows you are not being honest here...

You're right...last season, but i didn't know best player was only determined by scoring.

This season though those guys are in front of Gallo, and I say this in terms of impact, not just scoring.

I don't see that, as I said, not just scoring, but gallo made plays for them and usually guarded the opposing teams best wing player... now they have iggy and that team is set up to where on any given night, any player can be the leading scorer... there is no ball hawk looking for shots on that team, honestly, they are so much fun to watch, as a fan of basketball, it is a great thing..

No one wants to face denver in the first round of the playoffs.... they will run you to death and they can do so with length and great athleticism... they are going to be a real problem!

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:I value a chance to win.

Melo provides that as the best player on the team.

Gallo provides help to a team that already has better players on it.

Really this is downright silly to even compare the two.

Melo is a top 15 player in the league.

No one knows what Gallo will become, but right now he's an above average role player.

there is absolutely no proof to support that...

and him being the best player on the team is debatable as an argument for amare can be made, easily.

Really this is downright silly to even compare the two.

silly in the way you are trying to compare them... you guys cry that melo should not take the blame because it is a TEAM game, yet you use the "who is better " rule when we talk about player impact and success...

but right now he's an above average role player.

call it what you want, I am not going to argue that, but he is a key player on denver, a starter and one of their leading scorers, since arriving in denver their team has had a better record than ours..

evidence is just not supporting your argument.

pretty simple, I am sure you can sit here and make the argument that carmelo is better than ginobili.. better scorer that is.. but give me ginobili any day over melo.. especially when trying to build a team with depth.

if you want a team where one player dominates the ball and you can get chills as he goes through his scoring streaks but never win anything significant.. then melo is your man....

if you want to win and build a team of "basketball players".... then it is not so crazy to think that someone else may find guys like gallo more appealing..

Melo is a top 15 player in the league.

that is pretty much equivalent to coming in 4th place in a race where only the top 3 place.... that top 15 player stuff is the most useless argument I have ever heard.. next to the myth of being the "best pure scorer"...

a top 15 player and believe me he is closer to 15, is not going to make that much more, if any, of an impact than a guy who is ranked 20 or 25 or even 30... the gap between the elite and the rest of the league is that huge.. which is why you need to win with a system, with players committed to playing in that system, devoted to being in peak shape, and devoted to playing team ball on both ends.... if you can't land one of those top dogs, you need to have a solid plan, one that includes a progression of improvement and not trying to cheat the system with shortcuts...

We don't make the playoffs at if Melo had not turned on the jets during the finals stretch, enough for the entire NBA world to credit him as such, but fans, not so much.

Is Gallo or Ginobili in your examples gonna do that? These guys are not number one options definitely not Gallo, and it's even arguable that Gallo might be the weakest link their starting lineup.

Definitely the most inconsistent.

Look, I'm not professing Melo as the best thing since the wheel,and he has a world of faults to correct, but the guy is a legit player and few can be called top 15 in the game.

There is no myth about it, unless you can name 15 players who are better, and I'm not saying fit, I'm saying better.

You hate the guy, for whatever reason, and that's fine, I hate some players too.

But I'm willing to give the guy, and the team a fair chance, a chance that the majority of champions have had.......

A full season to get it right, and then see what becomes of it.

but your not willing to do that, and that is quite sad.

The trot out 10-11 every night and try to outrun people.

Rarely is that successful in the playoffs.

Hopefully Karl will have the sense to adjust, and utilize guys to dominate.

Nalod wrote:Denver's front line could have a nice balance if Javale pans out. Faried and Gallo bring way different skill sets to the table. Faried is a Dennis Rodman type that brings rebounding and some nice intangables to the game. I like this kid. With Iggy and Faried on the floor you have two guys with a defense abilty.

McGee
Faried
Gallo
Iggy
Lawson

Bench: Mozzy and Shy Wilson!

Thats a decent team and balanced. I hope they do very well and the knicks meet them in the finals!

I'll be sure to tune in from time to time and watch them.

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:I value a chance to win.

Melo provides that as the best player on the team.

Gallo provides help to a team that already has better players on it.

Really this is downright silly to even compare the two.

Melo is a top 15 player in the league.

No one knows what Gallo will become, but right now he's an above average role player.

there is absolutely no proof to support that...

and him being the best player on the team is debatable as an argument for amare can be made, easily.

Really this is downright silly to even compare the two.

silly in the way you are trying to compare them... you guys cry that melo should not take the blame because it is a TEAM game, yet you use the "who is better " rule when we talk about player impact and success...

but right now he's an above average role player.

call it what you want, I am not going to argue that, but he is a key player on denver, a starter and one of their leading scorers, since arriving in denver their team has had a better record than ours..

evidence is just not supporting your argument.

pretty simple, I am sure you can sit here and make the argument that carmelo is better than ginobili.. better scorer that is.. but give me ginobili any day over melo.. especially when trying to build a team with depth.

if you want a team where one player dominates the ball and you can get chills as he goes through his scoring streaks but never win anything significant.. then melo is your man....

if you want to win and build a team of "basketball players".... then it is not so crazy to think that someone else may find guys like gallo more appealing..

Melo is a top 15 player in the league.

that is pretty much equivalent to coming in 4th place in a race where only the top 3 place.... that top 15 player stuff is the most useless argument I have ever heard.. next to the myth of being the "best pure scorer"...

a top 15 player and believe me he is closer to 15, is not going to make that much more, if any, of an impact than a guy who is ranked 20 or 25 or even 30... the gap between the elite and the rest of the league is that huge.. which is why you need to win with a system, with players committed to playing in that system, devoted to being in peak shape, and devoted to playing team ball on both ends.... if you can't land one of those top dogs, you need to have a solid plan, one that includes a progression of improvement and not trying to cheat the system with shortcuts...

Like I said I want to win.

We don't make the playoffs at if Melo had not turned on the jets during the finals stretch, enough for the entire NBA world to credit him as such, but fans, not so much.

Is Gallo or Ginobili in your examples gonna do that? These guys are not number one options definitely not Gallo, and it's even arguable that Gallo might be the weakest link their starting lineup.

Definitely the most inconsistent.

Look, I'm not professing Melo as the best thing since the wheel,and he has a world of faults to correct, but the guy is a legit player and few can be called top 15 in the game.

There is no myth about it, unless you can name 15 players who are better, and I'm not saying fit, I'm saying better.

You hate the guy, for whatever reason, and that's fine, I hate some players too.

But I'm willing to give the guy, and the team a fair chance, a chance that the majority of champions have had.......

A full season to get it right, and then see what becomes of it.

but your not willing to do that, and that is quite sad.

+1

Too bad reason will never win out in this discussion.

Some people are self-professedly here solely to piss and moan.

It's okay.

I have my sig line to read and re-digest, thereby tempering tkf's unending trade-hissy-fit, anti-homer-at-all-cost barrages.

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:I value a chance to win.

Melo provides that as the best player on the team.

Gallo provides help to a team that already has better players on it.

Really this is downright silly to even compare the two.

Melo is a top 15 player in the league.

No one knows what Gallo will become, but right now he's an above average role player.

there is absolutely no proof to support that...

and him being the best player on the team is debatable as an argument for amare can be made, easily.

Really this is downright silly to even compare the two.

silly in the way you are trying to compare them... you guys cry that melo should not take the blame because it is a TEAM game, yet you use the "who is better " rule when we talk about player impact and success...

but right now he's an above average role player.

call it what you want, I am not going to argue that, but he is a key player on denver, a starter and one of their leading scorers, since arriving in denver their team has had a better record than ours..

evidence is just not supporting your argument.

pretty simple, I am sure you can sit here and make the argument that carmelo is better than ginobili.. better scorer that is.. but give me ginobili any day over melo.. especially when trying to build a team with depth.

if you want a team where one player dominates the ball and you can get chills as he goes through his scoring streaks but never win anything significant.. then melo is your man....

if you want to win and build a team of "basketball players".... then it is not so crazy to think that someone else may find guys like gallo more appealing..

Melo is a top 15 player in the league.

that is pretty much equivalent to coming in 4th place in a race where only the top 3 place.... that top 15 player stuff is the most useless argument I have ever heard.. next to the myth of being the "best pure scorer"...

a top 15 player and believe me he is closer to 15, is not going to make that much more, if any, of an impact than a guy who is ranked 20 or 25 or even 30... the gap between the elite and the rest of the league is that huge.. which is why you need to win with a system, with players committed to playing in that system, devoted to being in peak shape, and devoted to playing team ball on both ends.... if you can't land one of those top dogs, you need to have a solid plan, one that includes a progression of improvement and not trying to cheat the system with shortcuts...

Like I said I want to win.

We don't make the playoffs at if Melo had not turned on the jets during the finals stretch, enough for the entire NBA world to credit him as such, but fans, not so much.

Is Gallo or Ginobili in your examples gonna do that? These guys are not number one options definitely not Gallo, and it's even arguable that Gallo might be the weakest link their starting lineup.

Definitely the most inconsistent.

Look, I'm not professing Melo as the best thing since the wheel,and he has a world of faults to correct, but the guy is a legit player and few can be called top 15 in the game.

There is no myth about it, unless you can name 15 players who are better, and I'm not saying fit, I'm saying better.

You hate the guy, for whatever reason, and that's fine, I hate some players too.

But I'm willing to give the guy, and the team a fair chance, a chance that the majority of champions have had.......

A full season to get it right, and then see what becomes of it.

but your not willing to do that, and that is quite sad.

I can name you 15 players that are better, but again, what has that gotten carmelo.. this is my question... top 15 has done what for the nuggets?

I dislike the guy because he is a douchebag and the team I love with a foolish owner turned our team into a circus with this trade...

as far as the knicks, i give them a fair chance, I also gave melo a fair chance, so far he has failed in every area, and guess what, he failed as a leader with lin.. carmelo is not interested in winning, he is interested in his numbers...

and guess what, if not for lin's 8-1 stretch, carmelo's so called legendeary 18-6 run.. doesn't mean squat... that is a fact!

Have you personally met Carmelo? I have and would share it anytime you'd like.

knickscity wrote:Wait a sec? am I reading this right?

Melo is only interested in numbers, yet Lin wasn't?

Come on, without that run lin was done in the league, he absolutely care about his personal stats.

He also cared enough to not play until his deal got signed as well, as he should.

the owner told him not to play.. go figure..

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

100 MIL MAN coming off bench? ouch.... PR nightmare especially if we still don't win..

acquiring carmelo came at a very high initial price but the residual effects continue to resonate. it wasn't only losing chandler, gallo, mozgov. it also immediately meant that d'antoni, stoudemire, and fields would become marginalized. i am not optimistic that woodson can figure this out. i know the players can't-- they don;t have the tools or the mindset.

it could be a PR nightmare but then the upside is if the knicks start winning it washes away many sins. stoudemire needs redemption. he got shafted in the melo trade.

Let's pretend you are trying to be objective and I'll give you reasons why the Knicks had to make the trade...With STAT playing out of his mind and at MVP levels, Knicks weren't much better than a .500 team...There was no way the Amare would keep up that performance...I remember starting a thread that said there is no way Amare keeps this up, he needs help...Gallo and Will wasn't ready to step into a number two role...Heck, two years later, they still aren't ready...The Knicks went all in giving Amare 100 mil...They weren't about to let their young players develop on a team paying Amare 100 mil for shets and giggles...They didn't hire MDA at 6 mil per to nurture kids...

let's be clear here: starting posts with accusing me of not being objective doesn't make a persuasive case at all.

i have been through the stoudemire routine before. i don't buy into the "beasting" and "putting the team on his back" line of thinking as you do. it is part of a very shallow and selfish mindset about the team game. going into that season i expected him to show what he could do as the best player on a young team by doing the one thing we expect from the best players: make others around him better.

stoudemire did the opposite. stoudemire put up big numbers but contributed nothing to creating chemistry let alone synergy. forcing up shots over two and three defenders is not playing winning basketball. if it ever occurred to fans that he should have been working on ball movement, finding the open man, upping his assists, making hockey assists, hustle plays, and so on-- the knicks would have had a better than 28-26 record by the time of the trade. he also would not have burned himself out. he gets all the personal accolades to look like he is winning the battles but winning the war requires making others better, not freezing them out.

paying 100 million for stoudemire was a plan B and was kind of worth it. we had the space to do it after walsh's brilliant roster flushing.

carmelo? you don't do anything differently: pay him max money if you must but don't trade away assets. that was walsh's plan but dolan had other ideas and now it is what it is.the knicks didn't need to make the trade unless you think dolan is a better basketball mind than walsh.

I think you are forgetting that the owners had made it known that they were locking out the players and that there would be a new cba in place. Melo would have left Denver and gone to another team at the deadline, probably the Nets. He forced the issue with the Nuggets because he wanted to get paid before the new cba was put in place.
Also, I don't know how great plan b was. I think Walsh had to do something after two horrific years of purging the team of salary, picks and some young players. Getting Stat uninsured for the max was the best he could do but not what was planned.

i didn't forget. melo is a very good scorer and he obviously wanted his money. problem here is he wanted his money more than he wanted a decent team to join. at the end of the day he valued getting his above all else. basically the same attitude off the court as on. i have been told off by many knick fans that it is none of my business how much money melo is making and that i shouldn't begrudge him wanting to squeeze every last penny from a situation given the uncertain future. yes, uncertain future where you run the risk of making only 85 million dollars instead of 100 million dollars. as though anyone can relate to that much money. because when you stop to think about it you have to wonder how he could have possibly survived on 85 million, or his children, or is children's children, or his children's children's children...

interesting that you mention that he forced the issue with the nuggets... seems to me he forced the issue with the knicks too.

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:I value a chance to win.

Melo provides that as the best player on the team.

Gallo provides help to a team that already has better players on it.

Really this is downright silly to even compare the two.

Melo is a top 15 player in the league.

No one knows what Gallo will become, but right now he's an above average role player.

there is absolutely no proof to support that...

and him being the best player on the team is debatable as an argument for amare can be made, easily.

Really this is downright silly to even compare the two.

silly in the way you are trying to compare them... you guys cry that melo should not take the blame because it is a TEAM game, yet you use the "who is better " rule when we talk about player impact and success...

but right now he's an above average role player.

call it what you want, I am not going to argue that, but he is a key player on denver, a starter and one of their leading scorers, since arriving in denver their team has had a better record than ours..

evidence is just not supporting your argument.

pretty simple, I am sure you can sit here and make the argument that carmelo is better than ginobili.. better scorer that is.. but give me ginobili any day over melo.. especially when trying to build a team with depth.

if you want a team where one player dominates the ball and you can get chills as he goes through his scoring streaks but never win anything significant.. then melo is your man....

if you want to win and build a team of "basketball players".... then it is not so crazy to think that someone else may find guys like gallo more appealing..

Melo is a top 15 player in the league.

that is pretty much equivalent to coming in 4th place in a race where only the top 3 place.... that top 15 player stuff is the most useless argument I have ever heard.. next to the myth of being the "best pure scorer"...

a top 15 player and believe me he is closer to 15, is not going to make that much more, if any, of an impact than a guy who is ranked 20 or 25 or even 30... the gap between the elite and the rest of the league is that huge.. which is why you need to win with a system, with players committed to playing in that system, devoted to being in peak shape, and devoted to playing team ball on both ends.... if you can't land one of those top dogs, you need to have a solid plan, one that includes a progression of improvement and not trying to cheat the system with shortcuts...

Like I said I want to win.

We don't make the playoffs at if Melo had not turned on the jets during the finals stretch, enough for the entire NBA world to credit him as such, but fans, not so much.

Is Gallo or Ginobili in your examples gonna do that? These guys are not number one options definitely not Gallo, and it's even arguable that Gallo might be the weakest link their starting lineup.

Definitely the most inconsistent.

Look, I'm not professing Melo as the best thing since the wheel,and he has a world of faults to correct, but the guy is a legit player and few can be called top 15 in the game.

There is no myth about it, unless you can name 15 players who are better, and I'm not saying fit, I'm saying better.

You hate the guy, for whatever reason, and that's fine, I hate some players too.

But I'm willing to give the guy, and the team a fair chance, a chance that the majority of champions have had.......

A full season to get it right, and then see what becomes of it.

but your not willing to do that, and that is quite sad.

you don't win by asking who are the best 15 players and at the same time neglect to ask who is the best fit for a team.

it's a team game not a one-one-one tournament so "best" comes with an asterisk. better to ask which players are the most adaptable to playing any style and who are also best at contributing to cohesion. that's why you have MVP awards not BP awards in basketball.

the fact that your angle is "I'm not saying fit, I'm saying better" is the basis for a faulty argument. yes okay fine, in a fantasy-world vacuum melo is better than gallinari. how much better is arguable. twice as good? don't know about that. and in a team context he appears to make others worse, like fields and lin and stoudemire.

now two things could change all that: being able to run a pick and roll and passing out of converging double teams. if he learns to do those two things the knicks will be a much better team.

i am not holding my breath for that to happen.