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Is Anyone Actually Watching Carmelo Represent The United States?
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infinitilov100
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8/2/2012  1:42 AM
RicanHavok wrote:It's funny how the positive threads sink to the bottom of the forum but create a whiny, negative thread and the thread goes triple platinum.

I'm Knicks & Melocentric all day. Melo looks great but he obviously plays very different when he has tons of confidence in his teammates. He needs to carry that over to the Knicks even though, obviously, the talent level falls off a cliff in comparison to the USA squad but he needs to make that the thing he comes away with. Granted Melo's already proven to be a willing passer but I think his lack of confidence/trust in his teammates, deservedly so, is the hump he needs to get over.


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knickstorrents
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8/2/2012  4:13 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/2/2012  4:14 AM
I think Melo can thrive when it is easy but when it is a true competitive situation he falls back to bad habits and a losing playing style. It's easy to play relaxed and make the right plays when you completely outclass the other team. Hey, I get it. If you're talented it can take time to trust others. Jordan won his first Final 7 years after joining the league. It will be Melo's 10th season, hopefully it doesn't take him too much longer to learn.
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gunsnewing
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8/2/2012  5:55 AM
Melo came intp the league as a 19yr old. Jordan was 21-22
misterearl
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8/2/2012  7:41 AM
Mister Clutch Or Mister Choke?

knickstorrents wrote:I think Melo can thrive when it is easy but when it is a true competitive situation he falls back to bad habits and a losing playing style. It's easy to play relaxed and make the right plays when you completely outclass the other team. Hey, I get it. If you're talented it can take time to trust others. Jordan won his first Final 7 years after joining the league. It will be Melo's 10th season, hopefully it doesn't take him too much longer to learn.

knicktorrents - Do you watch the games or simply toe a line in the sand to be entertaining?

Even Michael Jordan admits he failed a lot more in the clutch than he succeeded. With the game on the line under two minutes, what other Knicks player do you want with the ball in his hands?

once a knick always a knick
newyorknewyork
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8/2/2012  8:17 AM
A historical timeline of Carmelo Anthony's game-winners

Melo in the clutch

By Aaron J. Lopez and Dan Tolzman, Nuggets.com, 11-27-10


Nuggets forward Carmelo Anthony added to his reputation as “Captain Clutch” on Friday night when he hit a 23-foot jumper as time expired to give Denver a 98-97 win over the Chicago Bulls.
Anthony now has made 14 career game-winning baskets in the final seven seconds, 13 during the regular season and one in the playoffs. Of those shots, 12 have been jumpers and 11 have silenced opposing crowds on the road.

During the regular season, Anthony is an impressive 15-of-33 on shots to either take the lead or tie the game in the final 10 seconds of the fourth quarter or overtime (he made a jumper against Portland to force OT with a playoff spot on the line as a rookie in 2004).

According to the Elias Sports Bureau, his .455 success rate stands as the highest percentage for any NBA player (minimum 20 attempts) in those situations during the regular season since Anthony entered the league in 2003-04.

Among all active players, Anthony’s 13 regular-season game-winners rank fourth in the NBA, behind only Kobe Bryant (21), Vince Carter (15) and his teammate Chauncey Billups (15).

His one playoff winner came against the Dallas Mavericks in Game 3 of the 2009 Western Conference semifinals.

Here is a closer look at Anthony's late-game heroics:

http://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/melo_winners_11_27_2010.html

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
misterearl
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8/2/2012  8:44 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/2/2012  8:52 AM
What Is a Losing Playing Style?

knickstorrents - I think Melo can thrive when it is easy but when it is a true competitive situation he falls back to bad habits and a losing playing style.

The Evidence

newyorknewyork - Jedi you are.

When athletes do not conform to the standardized aesthetic they can be rewarded with derisive labels and, at worst, arbitrary critique. No one is watching Carmelo's performance in the Olympics, in the same way his early season injuries had no impact on his game. Did Anthony say he was only 85 per cent and sit?

No, Carmelo played.

Duane Thomas refused to talk to the media in the week leading up to Dallas' 24-3 win over Miami in Super Bowl VI. The enigmatic Duane Thomas, in the most memorable post Super Bowl interview ever was questioned by Tom Brooshier. After the Cowboys' win, Brookshier stood next to the running back, talking about his ability to outrun defenders and building up to this question: "Are you that fast?"

"Evidently," Thomas replied.

once a knick always a knick
fishmike
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8/2/2012  9:03 AM
misterearl wrote:Mister Clutch Or Mister Choke?

knickstorrents wrote:I think Melo can thrive when it is easy but when it is a true competitive situation he falls back to bad habits and a losing playing style. It's easy to play relaxed and make the right plays when you completely outclass the other team. Hey, I get it. If you're talented it can take time to trust others. Jordan won his first Final 7 years after joining the league. It will be Melo's 10th season, hopefully it doesn't take him too much longer to learn.

knicktorrents - Do you watch the games or simply toe a line in the sand to be entertaining?

Even Michael Jordan admits he failed a lot more in the clutch than he succeeded. With the game on the line under two minutes, what other Knicks player do you want with the ball in his hands?


the point is the greatest player EVER changed to involve his teammates more and trust them. As many big shots as MJ hit his supporting cast hit a ton as well. Because he needed them too. Thats all thats being said here:
MJ changed to trust his teammates more. Can Melo do the same?

Is it such a terrible question to ask? Does it mean my support of Melo isnt blind enough? Do I lose my Knickfan ID card?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
CashMoney
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8/2/2012  10:39 AM
fishmike wrote:
misterearl wrote:Mister Clutch Or Mister Choke?

knickstorrents wrote:I think Melo can thrive when it is easy but when it is a true competitive situation he falls back to bad habits and a losing playing style. It's easy to play relaxed and make the right plays when you completely outclass the other team. Hey, I get it. If you're talented it can take time to trust others. Jordan won his first Final 7 years after joining the league. It will be Melo's 10th season, hopefully it doesn't take him too much longer to learn.

knicktorrents - Do you watch the games or simply toe a line in the sand to be entertaining?

Even Michael Jordan admits he failed a lot more in the clutch than he succeeded. With the game on the line under two minutes, what other Knicks player do you want with the ball in his hands?


the point is the greatest player EVER changed to involve his teammates more and trust them. As many big shots as MJ hit his supporting cast hit a ton as well. Because he needed them too. Thats all thats being said here:
MJ changed to trust his teammates more. Can Melo do the same?

Is it such a terrible question to ask? Does it mean my support of Melo isnt blind enough? Do I lose my Knickfan ID card?

The whole MJ invloving his teammate more in way blown out of proportion. In MJ's rookie year the guy averaged almost 6 assits per game and with the exception of the 88-89 season where he average around 8 his assist numbers were pretty balaced over the course of his career. In his last championship year he average 3.5 assists for the year. His shot attempts per game were also consistant throughout his career.

The knock and Melo shouldn't be look at his assist numbers! Look at his his shots per game! See he's a ball hog. The knock should 100% be STOP HOGGING THE BALL!

When I say STOP HOGGINTG THE BALL I'm not talking about assists or shot attempts. I'm talking about dribbling/holding the ball for so long. It's no secret that Melo likes to have the ball in his hands and dribble/back down his opponnent to get the shot that he wants. When he does this ball movement is non existent.

My knock on Melo is that he needs to move better without the ball. If he wants to post up than move without the ball and establish post position . If the shot he wants is not there than kick the ball out.

Blue & Orange 4 Life!
foosballnick
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8/2/2012  10:40 AM
Statistics, or Sabremetrics as they are referred to here, are great in a vacuum. You take an action, monitor it, add a variable with no other outside influences, then monitor the new outcome. This gives you a hypothetical predictor model. As you increase the number of trials or data points, the predictor has less deviation, or in other words, becomes more accurate.

The difficulty with predictor models is that in live circumstances, where there are many other factors involved that are not contollable, it is extremely difficult to model accuracy. For example, this is why it is still difficult to predict the weather and climate change, even thoughthere are hundreds of millions of dollars and countless scientists and climatologists poured into this research.

In sports, Sabermatricians (meaning anyone with half a brain who is able to gather statistical data and run it through an excel spreadsheet or simple database) and those who follow them have become a strong influence that has started to change the face of sports. There is good reason for this, Statistics, when employed properly with other factors such as context, intuitiveness and resources are a great tool in decision making.

HOWEVER......statistics can also be dangerous. If they are used improperly (such as without equalizers or context) their ability to predict often becomes meaningless. In baseball, which is mainly an individual battle and individual skill sport......saber metrics can offer a fair predictor model. The most notable use was the Oakland A's. However a common misconception about the A's is that they used statistics as the only tool to help put them near the top. The fact is that they utilized statistics as a tool to spend their payroll disadvantage more wisely. Simply put, they used statistics to make themselves more efficient compared to other teams that were being wasteful on salaries.

Basketball is not baseball. Any statistician will tell you that it is a much more kinetic game with many more factors or outside influences involved. The pace is quicker, the outcomes often based on other players involvement more than baseball, defense is more of a direct factor on the outcome....etc. In a more kinetic system, the predictability of statistics is severely hampered...much more so than The more static and individual baseball dynamic, and almost worthless when compared to a vacuum system.

Let's take a look at Melo as an example.......our resident know it all claims that Melo must improve on his approximately 43% shooting percentage which makes him at or below an average shooter. The problem with this line of reasoning is that it is based in a vacuum.......meaning that all factors which may effect Melo's shooting percentage have been falsely equalized or that every situation for every player is considered the same when compared to other players percentages. If you are going to dig into stats and claim a hypothesis or outcome....then you need to dig deeper.

How many of Melo's shots were desperation? Meaning end of period, end of shot clock? These rare outliers and need to be removed.

What is the percentage breakdown of uncontested layups or dunks based on set ups from team mates....both for Melo and for the players he is compared to? These will certainly effect the outcome.

What level of defender is assigned to Melo when compared to other players?

Are the rims at MSG more or less forgiving then at other arenas and what effect does this have on shooting percentage?

What is the breakdown of shots and associated percentages for Melo vs other players?

How often does Melo throw up a ball against the rim and rely on his relatively quick second jumping ability to get a put back?

How often do Melos team mates draw the double away from Melo when compared to players on other teams?

How much are defenses of other teams devised around stopping Melo compared to other players?

How often is the help defender hidden or makes to hamper Melo's recognition when compared to other players.

Etc.......there are many more.

Upon the eyeball test, and intuitiveness, both which also can be good tools when making decisions, Melo does not appear to be a player such as MJ, Kobe or Lebron.....meaning a player who's skills transcend the game. So in that sense, it would be folly to compare or benchmark him to them.

Stats are a good tool, but using them without context or not equalizing them in a proper way is really doing a disservice to what they are.....just a tool fairly good for situational context in sports like basketball, not an answer.

Sorry for the dissertation. I'm a biochemist by education and have worked in he past as a scientist in the food and pharmaceutical industries....often employing statistics to come up with predicted outcomes for food products and drug delivery systems.

In the real world there are too many variables that go into Melo's performance to state with confidence that he is a starPhuck and will continue to be so. Bottom liners will claim he hasn't won a championship. Last I checked, there were other players and other teams on the court.

CashMoney
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8/2/2012  10:45 AM
foosballnick wrote:Statistics, or Sabremetrics as they are referred to here, are great in a vacuum. You take an action, monitor it, add a variable with no other outside influences, then monitor the new outcome. This gives you a hypothetical predictor model. As you increase the number of trials or data points, the predictor has less deviation, or in other words, becomes more accurate.

The difficulty with predictor models is that in live circumstances, where there are many other factors involved that are not contollable, it is extremely difficult to model accuracy. For example, this is why it is still difficult to predict the weather and climate change, even thoughthere are hundreds of millions of dollars and countless scientists and climatologists poured into this research.

In sports, Sabermatricians (meaning anyone with half a brain who is able to gather statistical data and run it through an excel spreadsheet or simple database) and those who follow them have become a strong influence that has started to change the face of sports. There is good reason for this, Statistics, when employed properly with other factors such as context, intuitiveness and resources are a great tool in decision making.

HOWEVER......statistics can also be dangerous. If they are used improperly (such as without equalizers or context) their ability to predict often becomes meaningless. In baseball, which is mainly an individual battle and individual skill sport......saber metrics can offer a fair predictor model. The most notable use was the Oakland A's. However a common misconception about the A's is that they used statistics as the only tool to help put them near the top. The fact is that they utilized statistics as a tool to spend their payroll disadvantage more wisely. Simply put, they used statistics to make themselves more efficient compared to other teams that were being wasteful on salaries.

Basketball is not baseball. Any statistician will tell you that it is a much more kinetic game with many more factors or outside influences involved. The pace is quicker, the outcomes often based on other players involvement more than baseball, defense is more of a direct factor on the outcome....etc. In a more kinetic system, the predictability of statistics is severely hampered...much more so than The more static and individual baseball dynamic, and almost worthless when compared to a vacuum system.

Let's take a look at Melo as an example.......our resident know it all claims that Melo must improve on his approximately 43% shooting percentage which makes him at or below an average shooter. The problem with this line of reasoning is that it is based in a vacuum.......meaning that all factors which may effect Melo's shooting percentage have been falsely equalized or that every situation for every player is considered the same when compared to other players percentages. If you are going to dig into stats and claim a hypothesis or outcome....then you need to dig deeper.

How many of Melo's shots were desperation? Meaning end of period, end of shot clock? These rare outliers and need to be removed.

What is the percentage breakdown of uncontested layups or dunks based on set ups from team mates....both for Melo and for the players he is compared to? These will certainly effect the outcome.

What level of defender is assigned to Melo when compared to other players?

Are the rims at MSG more or less forgiving then at other arenas and what effect does this have on shooting percentage?

What is the breakdown of shots and associated percentages for Melo vs other players?

How often does Melo throw up a ball against the rim and rely on his relatively quick second jumping ability to get a put back?

How often do Melos team mates draw the double away from Melo when compared to players on other teams?

How much are defenses of other teams devised around stopping Melo compared to other players?

How often is the help defender hidden or makes to hamper Melo's recognition when compared to other players.

Etc.......there are many more.

Upon the eyeball test, and intuitiveness, both which also can be good tools when making decisions, Melo does not appear to be a player such as MJ, Kobe or Lebron.....meaning a player who's skills transcend the game. So in that sense, it would be folly to compare or benchmark him to them.

Stats are a good tool, but using them without context or not equalizing them in a proper way is really doing a disservice to what they are.....just a tool fairly good for situational context in sports like basketball, not an answer.

Sorry for the dissertation. I'm a biochemist by education and have worked in he past as a scientist in the food and pharmaceutical industries....often employing statistics to come up with predicted outcomes for food products and drug delivery systems.

In the real world there are too many variables that go into Melo's performance to state with confidence that he is a starPhuck and will continue to be so. Bottom liners will claim he hasn't won a championship. Last I checked, there were other players and other teams on the court.

Excellent post!

Blue & Orange 4 Life!
fishmike
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8/2/2012  11:35 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/2/2012  11:35 AM
CashMoney wrote:
fishmike wrote:
misterearl wrote:Mister Clutch Or Mister Choke?

knickstorrents wrote:I think Melo can thrive when it is easy but when it is a true competitive situation he falls back to bad habits and a losing playing style. It's easy to play relaxed and make the right plays when you completely outclass the other team. Hey, I get it. If you're talented it can take time to trust others. Jordan won his first Final 7 years after joining the league. It will be Melo's 10th season, hopefully it doesn't take him too much longer to learn.

knicktorrents - Do you watch the games or simply toe a line in the sand to be entertaining?

Even Michael Jordan admits he failed a lot more in the clutch than he succeeded. With the game on the line under two minutes, what other Knicks player do you want with the ball in his hands?


the point is the greatest player EVER changed to involve his teammates more and trust them. As many big shots as MJ hit his supporting cast hit a ton as well. Because he needed them too. Thats all thats being said here:
MJ changed to trust his teammates more. Can Melo do the same?

Is it such a terrible question to ask? Does it mean my support of Melo isnt blind enough? Do I lose my Knickfan ID card?

The whole MJ invloving his teammate more in way blown out of proportion. In MJ's rookie year the guy averaged almost 6 assits per game and with the exception of the 88-89 season where he average around 8 his assist numbers were pretty balaced over the course of his career. In his last championship year he average 3.5 assists for the year. His shot attempts per game were also consistant throughout his career.

The knock and Melo shouldn't be look at his assist numbers! Look at his his shots per game! See he's a ball hog. The knock should 100% be STOP HOGGING THE BALL!

When I say STOP HOGGINTG THE BALL I'm not talking about assists or shot attempts. I'm talking about dribbling/holding the ball for so long. It's no secret that Melo likes to have the ball in his hands and dribble/back down his opponnent to get the shot that he wants. When he does this ball movement is non existent.

My knock on Melo is that he needs to move better without the ball. If he wants to post up than move without the ball and establish post position . If the shot he wants is not there than kick the ball out.

I agree and what happened to the last coach who asked him to do that? Pounding the rock a couple times to survey the defense is fine... when there is 8 secs on the shot clock or game clock. The other 47 minutes and 52 seconds of the game it would be nice if Melo could be part of a regular offense that features high % shots FIRST and iso 1-1 play SECOND. That is the simple truth of what I have been saying here for along time, and the Felton/Amare combo is encouraging, but we have yet to see a Melo team play this way. The discussion on WHY it hasnt happened yet is a MElo love/hater thread waiting to happen and Im done with those, I just dont care enough to debate on the subject. When Melo is a part of a team that shares the ball and plays as a team we might have something special. Believe it when I see it.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
CashMoney
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8/2/2012  11:51 AM
fishmike wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
fishmike wrote:
misterearl wrote:Mister Clutch Or Mister Choke?

knickstorrents wrote:I think Melo can thrive when it is easy but when it is a true competitive situation he falls back to bad habits and a losing playing style. It's easy to play relaxed and make the right plays when you completely outclass the other team. Hey, I get it. If you're talented it can take time to trust others. Jordan won his first Final 7 years after joining the league. It will be Melo's 10th season, hopefully it doesn't take him too much longer to learn.

knicktorrents - Do you watch the games or simply toe a line in the sand to be entertaining?

Even Michael Jordan admits he failed a lot more in the clutch than he succeeded. With the game on the line under two minutes, what other Knicks player do you want with the ball in his hands?


the point is the greatest player EVER changed to involve his teammates more and trust them. As many big shots as MJ hit his supporting cast hit a ton as well. Because he needed them too. Thats all thats being said here:
MJ changed to trust his teammates more. Can Melo do the same?

Is it such a terrible question to ask? Does it mean my support of Melo isnt blind enough? Do I lose my Knickfan ID card?

The whole MJ invloving his teammate more in way blown out of proportion. In MJ's rookie year the guy averaged almost 6 assits per game and with the exception of the 88-89 season where he average around 8 his assist numbers were pretty balaced over the course of his career. In his last championship year he average 3.5 assists for the year. His shot attempts per game were also consistant throughout his career.

The knock and Melo shouldn't be look at his assist numbers! Look at his his shots per game! See he's a ball hog. The knock should 100% be STOP HOGGING THE BALL!

When I say STOP HOGGINTG THE BALL I'm not talking about assists or shot attempts. I'm talking about dribbling/holding the ball for so long. It's no secret that Melo likes to have the ball in his hands and dribble/back down his opponnent to get the shot that he wants. When he does this ball movement is non existent.

My knock on Melo is that he needs to move better without the ball. If he wants to post up than move without the ball and establish post position . If the shot he wants is not there than kick the ball out.

I agree and what happened to the last coach who asked him to do that? Pounding the rock a couple times to survey the defense is fine... when there is 8 secs on the shot clock or game clock. The other 47 minutes and 52 seconds of the game it would be nice if Melo could be part of a regular offense that features high % shots FIRST and iso 1-1 play SECOND. That is the simple truth of what I have been saying here for along time, and the Felton/Amare combo is encouraging, but we have yet to see a Melo team play this way. The discussion on WHY it hasnt happened yet is a MElo love/hater thread waiting to happen and Im done with those, I just dont care enough to debate on the subject. When Melo is a part of a team that shares the ball and plays as a team we might have something special. Believe it when I see it.

He has done it just not on a consitant basis which is where I think the frustration for many sets in. I think a full training camp is going to do wonders for this team. I think this is the year where we see Melo take his game to the next level.

Blue & Orange 4 Life!
fishmike
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8/2/2012  11:58 AM
cash... from your lips to god's ears man. I hope your right, but Ive long given up waiting for veteran players to do anything different when coming to NY. Usually they get worse

Man I hope your right. Im sick of being sick of this team. 10+ years of this crap

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
knicks1248
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8/2/2012  12:00 PM
fishmike wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
fishmike wrote:
misterearl wrote:Mister Clutch Or Mister Choke?

knickstorrents wrote:I think Melo can thrive when it is easy but when it is a true competitive situation he falls back to bad habits and a losing playing style. It's easy to play relaxed and make the right plays when you completely outclass the other team. Hey, I get it. If you're talented it can take time to trust others. Jordan won his first Final 7 years after joining the league. It will be Melo's 10th season, hopefully it doesn't take him too much longer to learn.

knicktorrents - Do you watch the games or simply toe a line in the sand to be entertaining?

Even Michael Jordan admits he failed a lot more in the clutch than he succeeded. With the game on the line under two minutes, what other Knicks player do you want with the ball in his hands?


the point is the greatest player EVER changed to involve his teammates more and trust them. As many big shots as MJ hit his supporting cast hit a ton as well. Because he needed them too. Thats all thats being said here:
MJ changed to trust his teammates more. Can Melo do the same?

Is it such a terrible question to ask? Does it mean my support of Melo isnt blind enough? Do I lose my Knickfan ID card?

The whole MJ invloving his teammate more in way blown out of proportion. In MJ's rookie year the guy averaged almost 6 assits per game and with the exception of the 88-89 season where he average around 8 his assist numbers were pretty balaced over the course of his career. In his last championship year he average 3.5 assists for the year. His shot attempts per game were also consistant throughout his career.

The knock and Melo shouldn't be look at his assist numbers! Look at his his shots per game! See he's a ball hog. The knock should 100% be STOP HOGGING THE BALL!

When I say STOP HOGGINTG THE BALL I'm not talking about assists or shot attempts. I'm talking about dribbling/holding the ball for so long. It's no secret that Melo likes to have the ball in his hands and dribble/back down his opponnent to get the shot that he wants. When he does this ball movement is non existent.

My knock on Melo is that he needs to move better without the ball. If he wants to post up than move without the ball and establish post position . If the shot he wants is not there than kick the ball out.

I agree and what happened to the last coach who asked him to do that? Pounding the rock a couple times to survey the defense is fine... when there is 8 secs on the shot clock or game clock. The other 47 minutes and 52 seconds of the game it would be nice if Melo could be part of a regular offense that features high % shots FIRST and iso 1-1 play SECOND. That is the simple truth of what I have been saying here for along time, and the Felton/Amare combo is encouraging, but we have yet to see a Melo team play this way. The discussion on WHY it hasnt happened yet is a MElo love/hater thread waiting to happen and Im done with those, I just dont care enough to debate on the subject. When Melo is a part of a team that shares the ball and plays as a team we might have something special. Believe it when I see it.

I just don't understand this selfish player that some think melo is..As a scorer (these same people who thinks he's selfish) you expect this guy to take a lot of shots, if he doesn't and pass more then he normally does, he's appearing to not play hard..

It's tough to have much of a balance coming from a scorer..How come KD gets scoring titles and we never accuse this guy of selfish play? In order for a player to avg 22 or more points he's going to have to shoot a lot (this is the nba)..The only time I really see melo play selfish is when the rest of the team is shooting poorrly, he makes a couple shots, and your hoping he takes over..

The only thing I want melo to learn, is shooting off of screens way more then he does, if he does that, the selfish label gooes away..but since he hasn't added that to his game, and he's most effective holding, pounding, and shooting straight up..

ES
CashMoney
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8/2/2012  12:55 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
fishmike wrote:
misterearl wrote:Mister Clutch Or Mister Choke?

knickstorrents wrote:I think Melo can thrive when it is easy but when it is a true competitive situation he falls back to bad habits and a losing playing style. It's easy to play relaxed and make the right plays when you completely outclass the other team. Hey, I get it. If you're talented it can take time to trust others. Jordan won his first Final 7 years after joining the league. It will be Melo's 10th season, hopefully it doesn't take him too much longer to learn.

knicktorrents - Do you watch the games or simply toe a line in the sand to be entertaining?

Even Michael Jordan admits he failed a lot more in the clutch than he succeeded. With the game on the line under two minutes, what other Knicks player do you want with the ball in his hands?


the point is the greatest player EVER changed to involve his teammates more and trust them. As many big shots as MJ hit his supporting cast hit a ton as well. Because he needed them too. Thats all thats being said here:
MJ changed to trust his teammates more. Can Melo do the same?

Is it such a terrible question to ask? Does it mean my support of Melo isnt blind enough? Do I lose my Knickfan ID card?

The whole MJ invloving his teammate more in way blown out of proportion. In MJ's rookie year the guy averaged almost 6 assits per game and with the exception of the 88-89 season where he average around 8 his assist numbers were pretty balaced over the course of his career. In his last championship year he average 3.5 assists for the year. His shot attempts per game were also consistant throughout his career.

The knock and Melo shouldn't be look at his assist numbers! Look at his his shots per game! See he's a ball hog. The knock should 100% be STOP HOGGING THE BALL!

When I say STOP HOGGINTG THE BALL I'm not talking about assists or shot attempts. I'm talking about dribbling/holding the ball for so long. It's no secret that Melo likes to have the ball in his hands and dribble/back down his opponnent to get the shot that he wants. When he does this ball movement is non existent.

My knock on Melo is that he needs to move better without the ball. If he wants to post up than move without the ball and establish post position . If the shot he wants is not there than kick the ball out.

I agree and what happened to the last coach who asked him to do that? Pounding the rock a couple times to survey the defense is fine... when there is 8 secs on the shot clock or game clock. The other 47 minutes and 52 seconds of the game it would be nice if Melo could be part of a regular offense that features high % shots FIRST and iso 1-1 play SECOND. That is the simple truth of what I have been saying here for along time, and the Felton/Amare combo is encouraging, but we have yet to see a Melo team play this way. The discussion on WHY it hasnt happened yet is a MElo love/hater thread waiting to happen and Im done with those, I just dont care enough to debate on the subject. When Melo is a part of a team that shares the ball and plays as a team we might have something special. Believe it when I see it.

I just don't understand this selfish player that some think melo is..As a scorer (these same people who thinks he's selfish) you expect this guy to take a lot of shots, if he doesn't and pass more then he normally does, he's appearing to not play hard..

It's tough to have much of a balance coming from a scorer..How come KD gets scoring titles and we never accuse this guy of selfish play? In order for a player to avg 22 or more points he's going to have to shoot a lot (this is the nba)..The only time I really see melo play selfish is when the rest of the team is shooting poorrly, he makes a couple shots, and your hoping he takes over..

The only thing I want melo to learn, is shooting off of screens way more then he does, if he does that, the selfish label gooes away..but since he hasn't added that to his game, and he's most effective holding, pounding, and shooting straight up..

I don't get the selfish laber either. KD average 2 assists a game averages 18 shots a game. Melo for his career has averaged 19 shot attemps per game and 3.5 assits. Both average in the 6's as far at FT attempts as well. The difference is OKC....young team on the winning track.

Blue & Orange 4 Life!
fishmike
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8/2/2012  1:11 PM
because KD goes the finals and his teams advance in the playoffs, thats why. Because KD at 23 years old is a top 5 player. Because KD is coming off his best season and shot almost 50%, and became a better rebounder and defensive player as well.

KD and Melo are NOT the same class of player. Thats what kills these "discussions" and drives them into anti-melo hater threads. In 54 playoff games MElo shoots a Jamal Crawford like .419, but his trolls here would leave you to believe its just the supporting cast and Melo = Kobe, Durant, etc etc

Durant isnt selfish because his team is one of the best in the league and thats proven. Dudes an MVP caliber player. If people are expecting Melo to be an MVP thats an unfair expectation. He's never shown in the league he's that caliber of player. Not even really in the discussion. Melo once finished 6th in MVP voting. He's never cracked the top 10 aside from that. Durant's last 3 years he was 2,5 and 2 in MVP voting. Next best player to Lebron.

Can we please stop putting Melo in these discussions? This is just reality. Im not saying Melo cant be a winner and cant win a title or go deep in the playoffs like your Paul Pierce, Ginobili, etc

Melo is good, but yea... when your shooting .419 in 50+ playoff games and have the league's worst record of any guy to have played in 50 playoff games your being selfish, or doing something wrong. Label it what you want, but the style of play isnt winning.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
SupremeCommander
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8/2/2012  1:21 PM
fishmike wrote:because KD goes the finals and his teams advance in the playoffs, thats why. Because KD at 23 years old is a top 5 player. Because KD is coming off his best season and shot almost 50%, and became a better rebounder and defensive player as well.

KD and Melo are NOT the same class of player. Thats what kills these "discussions" and drives them into anti-melo hater threads. In 54 playoff games MElo shoots a Jamal Crawford like .419, but his trolls here would leave you to believe its just the supporting cast and Melo = Kobe, Durant, etc etc

Durant isnt selfish because his team is one of the best in the league and thats proven. Dudes an MVP caliber player. If people are expecting Melo to be an MVP thats an unfair expectation. He's never shown in the league he's that caliber of player. Not even really in the discussion. Melo once finished 6th in MVP voting. He's never cracked the top 10 aside from that. Durant's last 3 years he was 2,5 and 2 in MVP voting. Next best player to Lebron.

Can we please stop putting Melo in these discussions? This is just reality. Im not saying Melo cant be a winner and cant win a title or go deep in the playoffs like your Paul Pierce, Ginobili, etc

Melo is good, but yea... when your shooting .419 in 50+ playoff games and have the league's worst record of any guy to have played in 50 playoff games your being selfish, or doing something wrong. Label it what you want, but the style of play isnt winning.

as much of a fan of Melo's as I am, I agree with this. During the Finals, it was a legitimate argument over who the best player in the NBA is: LeBron or Durant. That's insane. The really interesting argument will be who was a better player at 27--LBJ or Durantula. Bottomline is Durant's reach has to be damn near 9' and his shot is pure. He's like some freak combo of Nowitzki and Reggie Miller

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
knicks1248
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8/2/2012  1:32 PM
fishmike wrote:because KD goes the finals and his teams advance in the playoffs, thats why. Because KD at 23 years old is a top 5 player. Because KD is coming off his best season and shot almost 50%, and became a better rebounder and defensive player as well.

KD and Melo are NOT the same class of player. Thats what kills these "discussions" and drives them into anti-melo hater threads. In 54 playoff games MElo shoots a Jamal Crawford like .419, but his trolls here would leave you to believe its just the supporting cast and Melo = Kobe, Durant, etc etc

Durant isnt selfish because his team is one of the best in the league and thats proven. Dudes an MVP caliber player. If people are expecting Melo to be an MVP thats an unfair expectation. He's never shown in the league he's that caliber of player. Not even really in the discussion. Melo once finished 6th in MVP voting. He's never cracked the top 10 aside from that. Durant's last 3 years he was 2,5 and 2 in MVP voting. Next best player to Lebron.

Can we please stop putting Melo in these discussions? This is just reality. Im not saying Melo cant be a winner and cant win a title or go deep in the playoffs like your Paul Pierce, Ginobili, etc

Melo is good, but yea... when your shooting .419 in 50+ playoff games and have the league's worst record of any guy to have played in 50 playoff games your being selfish, or doing something wrong. Label it what you want, but the style of play isnt winning.

so until melos shooting % rises, he's a selfish player. I can argue all day abot supporting cast, but the reality( in your eyes) is that his shooting % hinders the guys around him. A selfish player to me is a player who shots a very low % takes an enormus amount of shots while his teammates shoot above 50% and take very few shots..

This past playoffs, no one on the knicks shot well, not bibby, not Jr, not Amare, not novak, no one..

are you blaming that on melo..

ES
fishmike
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8/2/2012  1:41 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:because KD goes the finals and his teams advance in the playoffs, thats why. Because KD at 23 years old is a top 5 player. Because KD is coming off his best season and shot almost 50%, and became a better rebounder and defensive player as well.

KD and Melo are NOT the same class of player. Thats what kills these "discussions" and drives them into anti-melo hater threads. In 54 playoff games MElo shoots a Jamal Crawford like .419, but his trolls here would leave you to believe its just the supporting cast and Melo = Kobe, Durant, etc etc

Durant isnt selfish because his team is one of the best in the league and thats proven. Dudes an MVP caliber player. If people are expecting Melo to be an MVP thats an unfair expectation. He's never shown in the league he's that caliber of player. Not even really in the discussion. Melo once finished 6th in MVP voting. He's never cracked the top 10 aside from that. Durant's last 3 years he was 2,5 and 2 in MVP voting. Next best player to Lebron.

Can we please stop putting Melo in these discussions? This is just reality. Im not saying Melo cant be a winner and cant win a title or go deep in the playoffs like your Paul Pierce, Ginobili, etc

Melo is good, but yea... when your shooting .419 in 50+ playoff games and have the league's worst record of any guy to have played in 50 playoff games your being selfish, or doing something wrong. Label it what you want, but the style of play isnt winning.

so until melos shooting % rises, he's a selfish player. I can argue all day abot supporting cast, but the reality( in your eyes) is that his shooting % hinders the guys around him. A selfish player to me is a player who shots a very low % takes an enormus amount of shots while his teammates shoot above 50% and take very few shots..

This past playoffs, no one on the knicks shot well, not bibby, not Jr, not Amare, not novak, no one..

are you blaming that on melo..

name one player who became better when he joined Melo's team. Please... find me one.

A selfish player to me is a player who shots a very low % takes an enormus amount of shots while his teammates shoot above 50% and take very few shots..
sounds a lot like our franchise player... maybe if you named some players in the league you consider selfish I could discuss this better?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
RicanHavok
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8/2/2012  1:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/2/2012  1:53 PM
An entire franchise got better when Melo joined em.
Is Anyone Actually Watching Carmelo Represent The United States?

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