Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Anyone have a video of the highlights from this game?

Since when do you look at footage?

Its all in the numbers, my friend

You've misinterpeted me - at least, there is no currently available form of sabermetrics that explains 100% of the variance in team wins. In almost every field, statistical forms of assessment work best but intuition then makes a slight but meaningful additional contribution. Even if I did think it was all in the currently available numbers, though, I could still watch footage just for enjoyment.

Would you enjoy seeing Melo play well or will that just infuriate you ?

I would love it. That's why I wanted to see the footage. I already know the evidence is clear that statistical approaches to assessment have more explanatory power than intuition does. One case does not change that. If melo proved me wrong, it wouldn't change the general conclusion in the area of assessment. It would just make the Knicks a more exciting team.

I think stats are great but they don't tell the whole story. For example, calling Melo a horrible passer and a selfish player last year is not accurate. Statistics may lead you to make that assumption, but no one keeps statistics on how many times Melo found wide open teammates who bricked wide open shots. And no one keeps stats on how competitive overdrive kicks in and he tries to do it himself when the offense doesn't have it going. The Knicks as a team were the second worst perimeter shooting team in the league. You could find that out by looking at the stats, but watching the games would make that clear as well.

I'm not a Melo fanboy. I think he has a lot to prove in terms of leadership and defense. But his offensive game is up there with the best in the sport. To exclusively use stats and not watch the games closely when judging a player is not the right way to go about it.

I'm not sure who you're arguing against.

I don't know that I was arguing really. I guess your insistance on truston statistics above seeing ehat happens on the court rather than using one to make sense out of the other.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:His career assists were 3.0

This past season it was 3.6 and could have easily been 5.0 if there were fewer brickers.

So there was definitely improvement. I am hoping for 4.5 this season.

Melo has played with many very good players but never come close to 5.0 assists per season. This team was tied for 17th in FG%, which means that they are an average scoring team and Melo was passing to average scorers.

I did not say he has ever had a 5.0 year but I said he could have. He also only had 3.6+ once.

Who were the "very good players" that he played with?

Kobe averaged 4.7 and look who he played with.

This is where stats can be really out of context if they are misused.

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:His career assists were 3.0

This past season it was 3.6 and could have easily been 5.0 if there were fewer brickers.

So there was definitely improvement. I am hoping for 4.5 this season.

Melo has played with many very good players but never come close to 5.0 assists per season. This team was tied for 17th in FG%, which means that they are an average scoring team and Melo was passing to average scorers.

This is a good example. FG% may have been average, but look at their 3 point % and perimeter shooting percentage. The numbers are abysmal. And they had the best single 3 point shooter in the league and they still had awful outside shooting numbers.

That their FG% was as high as it was is a testament to Chandlers efficiency (even though he has zero offensive game) and the way a lot of the players were able to finish at the rim.

Overall FG% was average. 2 pt shooting was slightly above average and 3 point shooting was slightly below average. All of that indicates Melo was passing to average scorers.

So what would/could have been his assist numbers if he was playing with a top 5 squad (please refrain from a response like "if it was a top 5 squad then he wouldn't be on it")

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:His career assists were 3.0

This past season it was 3.6 and could have easily been 5.0 if there were fewer brickers.

So there was definitely improvement. I am hoping for 4.5 this season.

Melo has played with many very good players but never come close to 5.0 assists per season. This team was tied for 17th in FG%, which means that they are an average scoring team and Melo was passing to average scorers.

I did not say he has ever had a 5.0 year but I said he could have. He also only had 3.6+ once.

Who were the "very good players" that he played with?

Kobe averaged 4.7 and look who he played with.

This is where stats can be really out of context if they are misused.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:His career assists were 3.0

This past season it was 3.6 and could have easily been 5.0 if there were fewer brickers.

So there was definitely improvement. I am hoping for 4.5 this season.

Melo has played with many very good players but never come close to 5.0 assists per season. This team was tied for 17th in FG%, which means that they are an average scoring team and Melo was passing to average scorers.

This is a good example. FG% may have been average, but look at their 3 point % and perimeter shooting percentage. The numbers are abysmal. And they had the best single 3 point shooter in the league and they still had awful outside shooting numbers.

That their FG% was as high as it was is a testament to Chandlers efficiency (even though he has zero offensive game) and the way a lot of the players were able to finish at the rim.

Overall FG% was average. 2 pt shooting was slightly above average and 3 point shooting was slightly below average. All of that indicates Melo was passing to average scorers.

So what would/could have been his assist numbers if he was playing with a top 5 squad (please refrain from a response like "if it was a top 5 squad then he wouldn't be on it")

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:His career assists were 3.0

This past season it was 3.6 and could have easily been 5.0 if there were fewer brickers.

So there was definitely improvement. I am hoping for 4.5 this season.

Melo has played with many very good players but never come close to 5.0 assists per season. This team was tied for 17th in FG%, which means that they are an average scoring team and Melo was passing to average scorers.

I did not say he has ever had a 5.0 year but I said he could have. He also only had 3.6+ once.

Who were the "very good players" that he played with?

Kobe averaged 4.7 and look who he played with.

This is where stats can be really out of context if they are misused.

Melo's played with many efficient scorers who will bump up your assist totals if you make good passes to them: Chauncey Billups, Tyson Chandler, Amare Stoudemire, Steve Novak, Nene, Ty Lawson, Andre Miller, Marcus Camby

C'mon - now you are just flailing.

How would he do with the teams that Kobe had? OR WITH A TOP 5 SQUAD?

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:His career assists were 3.0

This past season it was 3.6 and could have easily been 5.0 if there were fewer brickers.

So there was definitely improvement. I am hoping for 4.5 this season.

Melo has played with many very good players but never come close to 5.0 assists per season. This team was tied for 17th in FG%, which means that they are an average scoring team and Melo was passing to average scorers.

I did not say he has ever had a 5.0 year but I said he could have. He also only had 3.6+ once.

Who were the "very good players" that he played with?

Kobe averaged 4.7 and look who he played with.

This is where stats can be really out of context if they are misused.

Melo's played with many efficient scorers who will bump up your assist totals if you make good passes to them: Chauncey Billups, Tyson Chandler, Amare Stoudemire, Steve Novak, Nene, Ty Lawson, Andre Miller, Marcus Camby

C'mon - now you are just flailing.

How would he do with the teams that Kobe had? OR WITH A TOP 5 SQUAD?

Actually, Denver was top 5 to 10 regularly in FG%. So you can just look at Melo's career assist #s to answer your question.

2003-4 - 17th
4-5 - 15th
5-6 - 15th
6-7 - 12th
7-8 - 9th
8-9 - 7th - with Billups (finally a PG) and a trip to WCF
9-10 - 10th

So that is not that good.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:His career assists were 3.0

This past season it was 3.6 and could have easily been 5.0 if there were fewer brickers.

So there was definitely improvement. I am hoping for 4.5 this season.

Melo has played with many very good players but never come close to 5.0 assists per season. This team was tied for 17th in FG%, which means that they are an average scoring team and Melo was passing to average scorers.

I did not say he has ever had a 5.0 year but I said he could have. He also only had 3.6+ once.

Who were the "very good players" that he played with?

Kobe averaged 4.7 and look who he played with.

This is where stats can be really out of context if they are misused.

Melo's played with many efficient scorers who will bump up your assist totals if you make good passes to them: Chauncey Billups, Tyson Chandler, Amare Stoudemire, Steve Novak, Nene, Ty Lawson, Andre Miller, Marcus Camby

C'mon - now you are just flailing.

How would he do with the teams that Kobe had? OR WITH A TOP 5 SQUAD?

Come on man playing with in the prime Shaq isnt an advantage at all.Denver had Marcus Camby his post play is just as good. Gasol and Bynum garbage. Denver had just as good of players as those Laker teams