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If this was the other way around--it would be racial
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Nalod
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3/30/2012  10:28 AM

Its fair to say the black community has indicted zimmerman as guilty. Based on our history of prejudice its also understandable the black community cannot fully trust the police or lawmakers who historically have not always been fair in upholding the law or fulfilling the constitution.

Legalized abortion had done more to reduce crime the last 40 years than any war on drugs.

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EwingsGlass
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3/30/2012  10:36 AM
I read about this case and listened to the pundits quip about various aspects of what happened and why. First and foremost, the outrage seen here would not be as overwhelming if the applicable law (which is not the "stand your ground" law, but simply the affirmative defense of "self defense") allowed Florida law enforcement to take Zimmerman into custody pending determination of the outcome of the crime. Furthermore, a society that emboldens vigilante action in the form of a "community watch" which similarly does not advise such "community watch" participants against the risks of racial profiling is flawed at its core.

The media has broadened this discussion because you have an innocent looking kid who inspires sympathy whose sole stereotyping factors are his skin color and his choice of wardrobe. Meanwhile, you have a far less congenial "aggressor" acting under the guise of authority with a loaded gun on him despite his designated role as a "watch".

Meanwhile, the general public intervenes in this discussion with partially informed views on fairness and equality, driven more by emotion than factual basis and/or legal understanding. This is, in fact, one of the tougher fact patterns to distinguish what happened -- particularly because one of the main witnesses is dead.

That said, my belief (while partially informed) is that the DA in Seminole County needs to bring charges against Zimmerman for his actions in causing the death of Trayvon Martin. At trial, Zimmerman will have the right to raise affirmative defenses as to whether he was justified in his shooting and killing Trayvon Martin. The DA should not be the arbiter of the facts in the case.

In my opinion, actions evidencing a crime were committed resulting in the death of Trayvon Martin. Whether those actions were justified requires a determination of facts that the DA is incapable of determining by himself because the main witness is dead.

Any decision not to bring the case against Zimmerman does two things (i) it denies Trayvon Martin's family their "day in court" and (ii) it encourages vigilante behavior where the aggressor creates a scenario where they are acting in "self-defense".

As a policy matter, I would want to discourage behavior like Zimmerman's where he aggressively confronts another person relying on self-defense to protect him. I think the affirmative defense of self-defense should be costly to the person asserting it (i.e. force them to show up in court to prove it) to discourage people from acting under its guise. A jury of his peers can determine whether he was justified or not.

To answer the question posed -- were the actions in the video reversed would it be racial? The statement that, by itself, a criminal act from one race to another is racially motivated is by itself ignorant. Without some prior bias or stereotyping behavior with racial overtones, there is no reason to raise the "race card". Martin's case has racial stereotyping on tape prior to the altercation. Your video doesn't, it simply has two different races involved. This one doesn't pass muster.

To a deeper degree, there is no need for "white people" to raise the spectre of "black on white" crime. It happens both ways everyday. The media frenzy here, as I said above, is that you have (i) a sympathetic victim, (ii) a menacing but "justified" perpetrator, (iii) a cloudy fact pattern and (iv) a failure by authorities to take arguably required action. It makes for good media story. It is what is cause we are what we are.

You know I gonna spin wit it
Uptown
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3/30/2012  12:14 PM
Nalod wrote:
Its fair to say the black community has indicted zimmerman as guilty. Based on our history of prejudice its also understandable the black community cannot fully trust the police or lawmakers who historically have not always been fair in upholding the law or fulfilling the constitution.

Legalized abortion had done more to reduce crime the last 40 years than any war on drugs.

Care to elaborate on this?

Nalod
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3/30/2012  1:18 PM
Uptown wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Its fair to say the black community has indicted zimmerman as guilty. Based on our history of prejudice its also understandable the black community cannot fully trust the police or lawmakers who historically have not always been fair in upholding the law or fulfilling the constitution.

Legalized abortion had done more to reduce crime the last 40 years than any war on drugs.

Care to elaborate on this?

At least in theory......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

loweyecue
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3/30/2012  1:33 PM
I will respond to triple threat later, can't read the entire readers digest at work!

Mr.Earl good post agree mostly but as was pointed out you probably also generalized against all cops. I think what you were trying to do though was point out a systemic problem where policemen are no lOnger hel accountable and the problem is at least partially based on racial feelings. I think the overall gun control laws or lack thereof in this country are a complete joke. Even as we speak the state of Michigan is trying to make 10 years old the legal age for hunting. So now we will have fully armed 10 year olds running around with guns!

On the issue of racism/ethnic profiling though the systemic problem with the police is fairly well documented. But even then majority of the men and women in uniform are hardworking people who try to do the right thing at great personal cost and they deserve our respect.

The lawmakers and the culture of zero accountability they are creating is the problem here. The racial bias is the means of perpetuating the crime, but it is the law that makes it possible.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
mrKnickShot
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3/30/2012  1:38 PM
loweyecue wrote:I will respond to triple threat later, can't read the entire readers digest at work!

Mr.Earl good post agree mostly but as was pointed out you probably also generalized against all cops. I think what you were trying to do though was point out a systemic problem where policemen are no lOnger hel accountable and the problem is at least partially based on racial feelings. I think the overall gun control laws or lack thereof in this country are a complete joke. Even as we speak the state of Michigan is trying to make 10 years old the legal age for hunting. So now we will have fully armed 10 year olds running around with guns!

On the issue of racism/ethnic profiling though the systemic problem with the police is fairly well documented. But even then majority of the men and women in uniform are hardworking people who try to do the right thing at great personal cost and they deserve our respect.

The lawmakers and the culture of zero accountability they are creating is the problem here. The racial bias is the means of perpetuating the crime, but it is the law that makes it possible.



+1000000
DJMUSIC
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4/4/2012  10:21 PM
Where is Triple Threat ?

Is he bounced from here ? this was some post however the discussion far far beyond Knick topics

Hope these responses did not drive person to a nervous breakdown

after all everyone makes mistakes .. in actions and/or comments

Turntable Musiclover & Mix-Master-ologist
BasketballJones
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4/5/2012  12:13 AM
DJMUSIC wrote:Where is Triple Threat ?

Is he bounced from here ? this was some post however the discussion far far beyond Knick topics

Hope these responses did not drive person to a nervous breakdown

after all everyone makes mistakes .. in actions and/or comments

Don't worry. He can always use one of his other accounts to press his agenda.

https:// It's not so hard.
Killa4luv
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4/19/2012  4:15 PM
This kind of thread saddens me to no end.

There is a crowd who claims "we don't know all of the facts" to be upset in the Martin-Zimmerman case.
But for this fight by a black girl against a white girl, apparently you have enough facts to say if things were reversed it would be racial. Its amazing how in a real scenario we have to wait for facts but in a scenario that doesn't even exist, you have all the answers. It is such a far fetched and inflammatory assumption especially when compared to the Martin-Zimmerman case. Briggs do you know all of the facts of the soccer situation? What was your real point? Why did you start this thread? How is this in any way similar or relevant to the martin zimmerman case?

Nalod says "Its fair to say the black community has indicted zimmerman as guilty." I'd love to know what inside track you have on the black community that goes beyond the TV in your living room or the internet to make that assumption 'fair' in any way. Its pretty amazing these things you guys are able to know all while urging black people to not rush to judgement because they don't know all of the facts.

The fact is that a kid walked to the store to get skittles and a snapple and never made it home because he was killed for no good reason. Imagine your son, or nephew, being described by Zimmerman as looking suspicious, a drug addict, an *******, for simply walking to his house in the rain with a hood on. And then being killed by this guy who imagined him to be all kinds of criminals and bad things when he was just a kid walking from the store. Then for the guy who shoots him to not even be charged. And for the record, you are both wrong, this isn't about the stand your ground law/defense, this is about the state saying they don't want to charge Zimmerman when even the lead investigator signed an affadavit saying he wants to charge Zimmerman because he doesn't believe his story.

How do you look at these facts and not see that it was because Trayvon was black, he became this gangster killer in Zimmermans mind? Unless we are to belive that somewhere on his way home Trayvon decided to ambush Zimmerman, because you know, skittles make you do crazy things, what is a reasonable scenario for how this played out?

The fact that you guys think this has more to do with the law than it does the fact that a random black kid was made into a boogey man to some wanna be cop *******, and literally walked away without charges (until people protested)- shows me exactly how clueless you are on issues related to race in this country. The fact that you are clueless doesn't bother me, its the part where you start opining on and deciding what black people should think, or evaluating what you think they think about certain matters, and you are so ill equipped to draw any meaningful conclusions.

TO even start a thread about this, like apparently you are bothered that black people think this is racial when you know, its really not. That law is not why Trayvon was shot. He was shot because a wanna be cop *******, conjured up a big bad boogy man in his mind, and if it were Trayvon or ME he wouldve seen the same 'threat'. I get that you guys being white don't understand what it is to be profiled. Its just sad that you don't know how much you don't know.

Nalod
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4/19/2012  5:02 PM
Nalod says "Its fair to say the black community has indicted zimmerman as guilty." I'd love to know what inside track you have on the black community that goes beyond the TV in your living room or the internet to make that assumption 'fair' in any way. Its pretty amazing these things you guys are able to know all while urging black people to not rush to judgement because they don't know all of the facts.

That law is not why Trayvon was shot. He was shot because a wanna be cop *******, conjured up a big bad boogy man in his mind, and if it were Trayvon or ME he wouldve seen the same 'threat'. I get that you guys being white don't understand what it is to be profiled. Its just sad that you don't know how much you don't know.

Have not walked in your shoes nor pretend to know what it is emotionally to be profiled.

"Fair assumption" over guilt seems like the court of public opinion white or black.

I default to the laws of the land.

Im not saying the laws are always right, and in this case they need to be looked at real close going forward.

Killa4luv
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4/19/2012  6:01 PM
Nalod wrote:
Nalod says "Its fair to say the black community has indicted zimmerman as guilty." I'd love to know what inside track you have on the black community that goes beyond the TV in your living room or the internet to make that assumption 'fair' in any way. Its pretty amazing these things you guys are able to know all while urging black people to not rush to judgement because they don't know all of the facts.

That law is not why Trayvon was shot. He was shot because a wanna be cop *******, conjured up a big bad boogy man in his mind, and if it were Trayvon or ME he wouldve seen the same 'threat'. I get that you guys being white don't understand what it is to be profiled. Its just sad that you don't know how much you don't know.

Have not walked in your shoes nor pretend to know what it is emotionally to be profiled.

"Fair assumption" over guilt seems like the court of public opinion white or black.

I default to the laws of the land.

Im not saying the laws are always right, and in this case they need to be looked at real close going forward.


Most reasonable people of any race presented with these facts think he's guilty. Only people with preconcieved notions and racial bias could hear this story and presume that a kid going to the store decides to attack a man on his way home. Theres no evidence or otherwise credible reason to believe that and there is every reason to believe Zimmerman was overzealous and obviously seeing things 'suspiciously' that weren't in the least bit suspicious. His own words indict him on the tape. "These ***holes always get away" What was Trayvon getting away from? 7-11?

The outrage is that he was not charged with a crime for months, and that has more to do with racial bias, preferential treatment, and the lack of value of a black child's life, than it does with the law of the land. Theres no excuse for him not to be charged, theres certainly enough evidence to take it to trial, the lead investigator thought so, and thought Zimmerman was lying.

There is a reason the lead investigator's decision was overturned and its not lack of evidence as they officially stated. I hope we get down to the bottom of THAT now that a spotlight is being shined on this, because that is why he was not tried, this has nothing to do with stand your grand, or the law of the land.

But again I'm so dissappointed in BRIGGS for even starting this thread. trying to compare a 15 second fight were a girl is being charged to a murder where a man wasn't. ITs unreasonable and I wonder if he has the balls to come back in here and explain his point, because I don't get it. If not, we can just wait to start a thread the next time a black man kills an unarmed white teenager and doesn't get arrested for it. Then we'll have something to talk about.

MozelGovCocktail
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4/19/2012  8:16 PM
Innocent until proven guilty is the standard.

I stand with the law, unwavering.

Nalod
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4/19/2012  9:51 PM
Killa4luv wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Nalod says "Its fair to say the black community has indicted zimmerman as guilty." I'd love to know what inside track you have on the black community that goes beyond the TV in your living room or the internet to make that assumption 'fair' in any way. Its pretty amazing these things you guys are able to know all while urging black people to not rush to judgement because they don't know all of the facts.

That law is not why Trayvon was shot. He was shot because a wanna be cop *******, conjured up a big bad boogy man in his mind, and if it were Trayvon or ME he wouldve seen the same 'threat'. I get that you guys being white don't understand what it is to be profiled. Its just sad that you don't know how much you don't know.

Have not walked in your shoes nor pretend to know what it is emotionally to be profiled.

"Fair assumption" over guilt seems like the court of public opinion white or black.

I default to the laws of the land.

Im not saying the laws are always right, and in this case they need to be looked at real close going forward.


Most reasonable people of any race presented with these facts think he's guilty. Only people with preconcieved notions and racial bias could hear this story and presume that a kid going to the store decides to attack a man on his way home. Theres no evidence or otherwise credible reason to believe that and there is every reason to believe Zimmerman was overzealous and obviously seeing things 'suspiciously' that weren't in the least bit suspicious. His own words indict him on the tape. "These ***holes always get away" What was Trayvon getting away from? 7-11?

The outrage is that he was not charged with a crime for months, and that has more to do with racial bias, preferential treatment, and the lack of value of a black child's life, than it does with the law of the land. Theres no excuse for him not to be charged, theres certainly enough evidence to take it to trial, the lead investigator thought so, and thought Zimmerman was lying.

There is a reason the lead investigator's decision was overturned and its not lack of evidence as they officially stated. I hope we get down to the bottom of THAT now that a spotlight is being shined on this, because that is why he was not tried, this has nothing to do with stand your grand, or the law of the land.

But again I'm so dissappointed in BRIGGS for even starting this thread. trying to compare a 15 second fight were a girl is being charged to a murder where a man wasn't. ITs unreasonable and I wonder if he has the balls to come back in here and explain his point, because I don't get it. If not, we can just wait to start a thread the next time a black man kills an unarmed white teenager and doesn't get arrested for it. Then we'll have something to talk about.

Provocation is not the issue.

What did the witness say? Two accounts by two witness'? If conflicted there is doubt. If there is "reasonable doubt", its hard to convict.

Guilty men/women often go free. The Florida Laws are convoluted in this case.

My point is not who initiated the encounter, but if Martin was "winning" and pounding Zimmerman at that moment the law is the law. Martin could have run away. That does not mean Martin "deserved" to be shot. It means the transfer of liability went from Zimmerman to Martin and Zimmerman we defending himself. Even if he was guilty of provoking the whole situation.

IT may not be "right" or "Just", but its the law. Zimmerman goes to trial and gets off its uglier. My guess is Zimmerman may be liable in a civil suit but that does not lock him up, just makes him broke.

All this is "IF". Personally I hope Zimmerman rots in hell because he initiated the whole damn thing. It is his "fault". I think he is guilty. But its not on me, or any one man to determine.

But we talking not "right vs. Wrong", we talking about the law as it stands at the time of this shooting.

What happened at that moment? I think that determines how he gets CONVICTED. Being arrested right away or not is really not as important as an conviction.

No, I don't have the emotional content of a black man angry about this and Im not saying people should not be upset. I speak from the point of how laws are upheld. I was outraged at first as most people but I see how the Sanford District Attorney is being cautious.

Its phucked up.

Killa4luv
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4/19/2012  10:27 PM
You and mozelgoz are missing the point although I get and mainly agree with u. This is about actually getting to trial which never would have happened were it not for the protests and outrage and media coverage.

This almost never got to a court of law which is what all the outrage was about. The are so many questions that needed to be fleshed out in a court that were never gonna see the light of day. The verdict is really a separate non issue at this point. Do u see what I'm saying?

We'll deal with the verdict when it comes but there is no way this could have or should have circumvented the courts. No way.

On a separate note, u r not allowed provoke a confrontation and them claim stand ur ground, but THAT will now thankfully Be tried in a court of law.

Nalod
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4/19/2012  10:54 PM
Killa4luv wrote:You and mozelgoz are missing the point although I get and mainly agree with u. This is about actually getting to trial which never would have happened were it not for the protests and outrage and media coverage.

This almost never got to a court of law which is what all the outrage was about. The are so many questions that needed to be fleshed out in a court that were never gonna see the light of day. The verdict is really a separate non issue at this point. Do u see what I'm saying?

We'll deal with the verdict when it comes but there is no way this could have or should have circumvented the courts. No way.

On a separate note, u r not allowed provoke a confrontation and them claim stand ur ground, but THAT will now thankfully Be tried in a court of law.

I hear you. Maybe in the end the democracy eventually gets it right.

Even when its "wrong"!

Cries for justice should not have to be. But it is.

MozelGovCocktail
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4/19/2012  11:14 PM
I see where you're coming from 100%.

My disagreement is with those who find fault with the law, to the point that they would consider abolishment of the second amendment in it's entirety.

I feel that this is an unfortunate incident, entirely avoidable if every attempt to privelige rights fell flat in the courts. Loopholes appear with every resetting of the bar.

Killa4luv wrote:You and mozelgoz are missing the point although I get and mainly agree with u. This is about actually getting to trial which never would have happened were it not for the protests and outrage and media coverage.

This almost never got to a court of law which is what all the outrage was about. The are so many questions that needed to be fleshed out in a court that were never gonna see the light of day. The verdict is really a separate non issue at this point. Do u see what I'm saying?

We'll deal with the verdict when it comes but there is no way this could have or should have circumvented the courts. No way.

On a separate note, u r not allowed provoke a confrontation and them claim stand ur ground, but THAT will now thankfully Be tried in a court of law.

If this was the other way around--it would be racial

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