Vmart wrote:When does one stop piling on Melo?

When he actually plays winning basketball? Or team basketball? or how about just wins a game? Or is on the court while the rest of the team wins a game and he doesn't stop them from doing so?

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...

Kobe    OWS 	DWS 	WS 	WS/48
        114.4 	46.9 	161.3 	.186
Melo    OWS 	DWS 	WS 	WS/48
     	37.9 	21.4 	59.2 	.126

.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.

People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.

Bonn, thanks thats an interesting sight. Still dont understand Win Shares but I will read more about them.

The numbers I do understand all still looks almost exact with Melo being a more efficient rebounder and Kobe being a more efficient passer.
TS%

Kobe = 55%
Melo = 54%

eFG%

Kobe = 48%
Melo = 47%

I am glad you got Nixluva excited about Win Shares though he has no idea what it means

Do you understand Win Shares? Offensive / Defensive? If yes, can you give a really brief explanation?

It's basically an estimate of how many wins the player contributes to the team. If you look at Carmelo's WS raw score for the year, it's estimating that he's added 2.6 wins to the team's total this year - with 1.4 coming from his offensive production (OWS) and 1.2 (DWS) from his defensive production. Then the WS/48 is an estimate of how many wins per 48 minutes (or one team game) the player adds. The idea is a little confusing but basically for every 48 minutes he's on the court, Melo has contributed .112 wins to the team. Hypothetically, a player who was perfect - a player who completely controlled every aspect of the game and single-handedly won every game - would contribute 1 win per 48 minutes.

I am still confused ... sorry

How is that tied into the offensive production? based off what numbers?

Oh, OK. Basically what I wrote above is what the stat means conceptually. I think you're asking for what the formula is though. I've seen the formula before but it takes tons of pages to fully write out - it's not simple! But basically all of the columns of data you see in the section labelled "advanced" are taken into account - the player's shooting efficiency, rebounding percentages, assists, steals, blocks, etc.

It can't be those columns because then they would be relatively close. This is now a hanging chad to the argument at hand - haha.

I guess I would like to see the formula but I can't find it.

And by the way, I am not belittling the Stat - I am sure that it has significant value. I would just like to see it so that I can attempt to poke holes in it - so it does not kill my argument but if it proves correct, I will back off this stance that they are equally efficient (OFFENSIVELY!!) for their careers.

There's no way they are equally efficient offensively. Looking at their assists and turnovers should make that clear. Kobe's giving his team about 10 points a game off of assists and Melo about 6 or 6 1/2. That may not sound like a huge difference but getting 3 to 4 more points in every game from one player will make a difference over the long haul. All of that said, Kobe at times does take bad shots at times and his shooting efficiency is OK but not outstanding. He doesn't have the shot selection that Lebron, Wade, Durant, and a few other stars have. That's a legitimate criticism to an otherwise outstanding basketball game he has.

True but melo gets more rebounds. Kobe gets 1 1/2 more assists per game. Which I guess is 3-4 points a game and Melo is getting a 1 rebound more a game which should equal 2-3 points a game so there should be a 1-2 point diff max. That is not really close?

Also, it does look like the Win Shares completely depend on how many wins the team has.

If you're efficient on offense and good on defense, you'll have a very good win share even if your team doesn't do well. Also, if you're bad on offense and defense, your WS will be bad even if your on a good team. If you search through the players on the website, you'll see plenty of examples.

SteveSmith wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Most teams get about 1.2 points per possession. So 1 more rebound should be about 1.2 more points. If you're efficient on offense and a good on defense, you'll have a very good win share even if your team doesn't do well.

Is there any chance to see how many of Melos rebounds are of his own missed layups? Dont get me wrong, thats one of his best skills, get rebounds, especially his own. But what I remember is several plays like that one in Boston. He gets 4 offensive boards of his 3 misses in one play until he finally hits the 4th layup. His rebound total that game? 7

True dat.

Bonn1997 wrote:

SteveSmith wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Most teams get about 1.2 points per possession. So 1 more rebound should be about 1.2 more points. If you're efficient on offense and a good on defense, you'll have a very good win share even if your team doesn't do well.

Is there any chance to see how many of Melos rebounds are of his own missed layups? Dont get me wrong, thats one of his best skills, get rebounds, especially his own. But what I remember is several plays like that one in Boston. He gets 4 offensive boards of his 3 misses in one play until he finally hits the 4th layup. His rebound total that game? 7

I'm sure there's a way to find out. He's hurting his FG% when he does that though. So it's not like it's a net gain for him.

LOL! Yeah...but it shows he is having trouble finishing and that his rebounds are overstated!

SteveSmith wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Most teams get about 1.2 points per possession. So 1 more rebound should be about 1.2 more points. If you're efficient on offense and a good on defense, you'll have a very good win share even if your team doesn't do well.

Is there any chance to see how many of Melos rebounds are of his own missed layups? Dont get me wrong, thats one of his best skills, get rebounds, especially his own. But what I remember is several plays like that one in Boston. He gets 4 offensive boards of his 3 misses in one play until he finally hits the 4th layup. His rebound total that game? 7

Thats how rodman got all his rebounds so you are right. I think Rodman was probably a sh1tty rebounder. GTFO