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Isola suggests Lin as suggested by Melo was fabricated.......
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eViL
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2/23/2012  12:56 PM
Bippity10 wrote:By the way, how is Mark "I cut Jeremy Lin" Jackson doing? Should Golden State fire him?

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mrKnickShot
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2/23/2012  1:26 PM
Bippity10 wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
martin wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
martin wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:I work at a big tech giant. I have never seen someone promoted to Director because it was not their fault since they were given weak resources and kept doing reorgs because it was not working.

You gotta succeed with the hand you are dealt (eventually/at some point) to get paid/extended/promoted or someone else gets a turn. You can only hope to be lucky enough to be dealt the right hand during your tenure.

Here's the thing: your analogy doesn't work. MDA isn't being promoted. And you can't succeed in the NBA with weak resources, and it also wasn't MDA who was doing the reorgs.

I think most are suggesting to extend MDA because he is a good fit for what and who is on the team today and going forward, and also because of what is not out there in terms of replacements.

Martin, its not just about weak resources but if you overachieve with them (e.g. JVG 1999). I think I've seen you agree/suggest prior to linsanity to see how the season plays out before extending. Whats the rush? What is it fails/falls apart etc ...? I am not saying that we should not give him a new contract but should he not prove himself first with a bit of a playoff run? Something? Not just 10 days of Linsanity?

The knicks were 11-14 in the 25 games prior to the Melo trade last year. And that's the team that he had BALLIN!!

Is he gonna leave now if we don't extend? If not, then why the rush to judgement?

I think you just accidentally compared or lined up overachieving with the 99 roster and what MDA had over the course of his first 3 years? I would say with one you can overachieve, with the other, who cares.

playoff achievement is not necessarily a barometer for me... what happens if the Knicks run into Miami in first round and go toe-to-toe in 7 game loss?

Are the Knicks overachieving on defense? I would say yes. Is there a better replacement out there as coach? For the roster and especially Lin, I would say no. Do the Knicks need continuity, yes, desperately. For those reasons alone I would probably extend MDA at end of season.

Martin, the 99 team just overachieved and it was unexpected - this team is alot better than the 99 knicks IMHO so they now need to play up to expectations (def not below).

What happens if they play Orlando, Phil, Atlanta or Indiana and look awful? Extend? Not me. If they run into Miami and go a tough 7, I'm in.

The '99 team did not overachieve. The 99 team was on the cover of Sporting News and Sports Illustrated. When we signed Spree we were the favorite to contend for the East. It just so happened, as usually happens when you get rid of core players(like Oakley) and replace them with new guys it takes a while for the team to learn to play together. It took us almost a full season to adapt to the new players. We almost missed the playoffs and gelled when the time was right. The reason why we haven't won in 40 years in NY is that we never stick with things. After every season we find who to blame, we fire them, trade them, gut the roster and then start all over again. we never sit back and say okay the coach needs more help here, here and here now let's go get it for him.

It's time to stop this nonsense. We should not be in a rush to fire anyone. Stop the madness. Get the guy the tools that he needs. Keep improving the roster. When this roster is championship level, if at that point he can't get over the hump, then you replace him with someone who can. But why start over now? Why fire the coach now or after this season? Where does that get you? Other than being able to say "we got rid of that jerk" it does nothing for us.

Phil Jackson is the only coach you should consider changing plans for. The rest of the coaches in this league(that you have a chance of getting) have just as many flaws as D'Antoni. So what is the point?

By the way, how is Mark "I cut Jeremy Lin" Jackson doing? Should Golden State fire him?

Unfortunately, that is the way it is in NY.

I would not get rid of MDA (even if he grossly underachieved) unless it IS for someone like PJax, Pop ...

Though everything about patience and proper building is true. A coach still has to produce eventually (in the playoffs)

In 99, the knicks overacheived in the playoffs. Ewing was hurt and they came in to the playoffs with low expectations.

Bippity10
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2/23/2012  2:17 PM
mrKnickShot wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
martin wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
martin wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:I work at a big tech giant. I have never seen someone promoted to Director because it was not their fault since they were given weak resources and kept doing reorgs because it was not working.

You gotta succeed with the hand you are dealt (eventually/at some point) to get paid/extended/promoted or someone else gets a turn. You can only hope to be lucky enough to be dealt the right hand during your tenure.

Here's the thing: your analogy doesn't work. MDA isn't being promoted. And you can't succeed in the NBA with weak resources, and it also wasn't MDA who was doing the reorgs.

I think most are suggesting to extend MDA because he is a good fit for what and who is on the team today and going forward, and also because of what is not out there in terms of replacements.

Martin, its not just about weak resources but if you overachieve with them (e.g. JVG 1999). I think I've seen you agree/suggest prior to linsanity to see how the season plays out before extending. Whats the rush? What is it fails/falls apart etc ...? I am not saying that we should not give him a new contract but should he not prove himself first with a bit of a playoff run? Something? Not just 10 days of Linsanity?

The knicks were 11-14 in the 25 games prior to the Melo trade last year. And that's the team that he had BALLIN!!

Is he gonna leave now if we don't extend? If not, then why the rush to judgement?

I think you just accidentally compared or lined up overachieving with the 99 roster and what MDA had over the course of his first 3 years? I would say with one you can overachieve, with the other, who cares.

playoff achievement is not necessarily a barometer for me... what happens if the Knicks run into Miami in first round and go toe-to-toe in 7 game loss?

Are the Knicks overachieving on defense? I would say yes. Is there a better replacement out there as coach? For the roster and especially Lin, I would say no. Do the Knicks need continuity, yes, desperately. For those reasons alone I would probably extend MDA at end of season.

Martin, the 99 team just overachieved and it was unexpected - this team is alot better than the 99 knicks IMHO so they now need to play up to expectations (def not below).

What happens if they play Orlando, Phil, Atlanta or Indiana and look awful? Extend? Not me. If they run into Miami and go a tough 7, I'm in.

The '99 team did not overachieve. The 99 team was on the cover of Sporting News and Sports Illustrated. When we signed Spree we were the favorite to contend for the East. It just so happened, as usually happens when you get rid of core players(like Oakley) and replace them with new guys it takes a while for the team to learn to play together. It took us almost a full season to adapt to the new players. We almost missed the playoffs and gelled when the time was right. The reason why we haven't won in 40 years in NY is that we never stick with things. After every season we find who to blame, we fire them, trade them, gut the roster and then start all over again. we never sit back and say okay the coach needs more help here, here and here now let's go get it for him.

It's time to stop this nonsense. We should not be in a rush to fire anyone. Stop the madness. Get the guy the tools that he needs. Keep improving the roster. When this roster is championship level, if at that point he can't get over the hump, then you replace him with someone who can. But why start over now? Why fire the coach now or after this season? Where does that get you? Other than being able to say "we got rid of that jerk" it does nothing for us.

Phil Jackson is the only coach you should consider changing plans for. The rest of the coaches in this league(that you have a chance of getting) have just as many flaws as D'Antoni. So what is the point?

By the way, how is Mark "I cut Jeremy Lin" Jackson doing? Should Golden State fire him?

Unfortunately, that is the way it is in NY.

I would not get rid of MDA (even if he grossly underachieved) unless it IS for someone like PJax, Pop ...

Though everything about patience and proper building is true. A coach still has to produce eventually (in the playoffs)

In 99, the knicks overacheived in the playoffs. Ewing was hurt and they came in to the playoffs with low expectations.

In the 99 playoffs-I'm getting old but my memory is not that bad. Ewing played the first two series of the playoffs and averaged 13 and 9 which was right in line with his stats from the prior season so there were no suprises. We were an 8 seed so everyone says it was an upset, but that team with Spree, Allan, Camby, a 75% EWing, Childs, Ward should not have been an 8 seed. They were better than that. Now if you want to call the Indiana series and upset because Ewing got knocked out early I can buy that, accept they had a hard time handling our speed and may have made a better series of it if Ewing and his plodding offense had been there.

A coach does have to produce in the playoffs, doesn't mean you fire him everytime you don't win. You can do that in baseball because you can spend 40 billion dollars to rebuild your roster. You can do that in football because contracts are not guaranteed so you can overturn your roster overnight. In basketball you can't. Once your core is set it takes 3 or 4 years to replace. You need continuity. You can't fire someone and gut a roster every 2 or 3 years hoping the next guy will be the savior. YOu have to have patience and BUILD AS AN ORGANIZATION. The guy is a good coach with flaws. Anyone you replace him with not named Phil Jackson will have flaws as well. So what is the point? If we are going to stick with the "that's the way it is in NY" we aren't going to win for another 40 years. The reason Walsh turned this around is because he didn't buy into the "that's the way it is in NY" stuff. Again, that can work in baseball and football. Does not work in basketball. If you fire D'Antoni there better be a fantastic reason. Team munity, spitting on Dolan, Phil Jackson or some other proven champion. Otherwise guess what, it's the same shiot, different coach.

Build with D'Antoni. Continue to strengthen the roster. If you get to the point where D'Antoni can't get you over the hump when he has a full roster that has been together for more than 3 months. Then you replace him. Not, now right when we are in the middle of building. This recipe hasn't worked for 40 years. Why do we think the next guy will be the guy.

Remember this: "Fire Doc" won a title in Boston after fans wanted to run him out of twon. Management stuck with him and built him a winner. Now he has a title

I just hope that people will like me
mrKnickShot
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2/23/2012  2:38 PM
Again, agree with every point you made. It still can't be open ended. And, of course you don't replace him with less than a Pjax caliber coach.

Producing in the playoffs does not necessarily mean win. Taking Miami to 7 and losing in the first round is something too.

Every GM, even a conservative one has a limit. A timeline. Non-open-ended expectations / Goals.

Lets continue to improve, make the playoffs, have a positive showing and then, extend 2 years. I think that is a fair take / expectation.

nixluva
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2/23/2012  3:11 PM
Bippity10 wrote:Remember this: "Fire Doc" won a title in Boston after fans wanted to run him out of twon. Management stuck with him and built him a winner. Now he has a title

To me this is the most direct comparison to what we have here in NY. Doc had been a good coach and then his roster was garbage and the team lost. He wasn't making great decisions as IMO happens when your choices are scrub 1 vs scrub 2. Then as soon as he has players that can execute what he's preaching, all of a sudden he's a great coach.

I was watching the game Tuesday and saw MDA standing and calling out a defensive set for the team as they went back to the other end. This is the exact same defensive system MDA has always had. Some hate it, but in the end with better players it's working. For those that think MDA is just sitting on his ass all game, they don't realize that he's actually coaching and when necessary making changes to the offense and defense. There's only one head coach. Just like I felt last year in the Playoffs the team came out very much prepared and played much tougher D than at any time. Boston escaped with their lives in some down to the wire wins. Even before the trade MDA had the team playing about as good as they could with the make up of the team.

Now we finally have defensive Talent with Tyson, Jared, Shump and even JR. Melo plays hard as do many of the other players. The only guy that still sucks on D is STAT and he always did. Even Lin is a much better defender than we thought. IMO the combo of Woodson and MDA has worked out GREAT!!!

The final thing is MDA and Lin! There can't be a better reason to want to keep MDA around than how Lin has blossomed in this system. It's a PERFECT marriage of player and coach. MDA finally has another coach on the floor in Lin. I think NY fans forgot just how good it looked when MDA had Nash to execute on the highest level. Lin is at the beginning of his path to becoming just that good and maybe better! Lin is much younger than Nash was when he got with MDA. Lin is a better defender too.

nyk4ever
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2/23/2012  3:14 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:here's some brilliance: team has certain set of players that love the coach, teams offense runs really well because of the style the coach preaches, team is actually playing defense for coach too, get rid of coach.

you clearly are a student of uk.com

like I've said, I'm not a huge fan of 's style. But I do value consistency as well as performance. They're playing defense. Don't know if it is Woodson or Chandler or Pringles but frankly I don't care. He's finally got horses so I want to see what he can do. Personally I hope these conversations die off and we can revisit during the 2014 offseason, if needed.

you and i could have our phD's by now my friend.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bippity10
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2/23/2012  4:16 PM
mrKnickShot wrote:Again, agree with every point you made. It still can't be open ended. And, of course you don't replace him with less than a Pjax caliber coach.

Producing in the playoffs does not necessarily mean win. Taking Miami to 7 and losing in the first round is something too.

Every GM, even a conservative one has a limit. A timeline. Non-open-ended expectations / Goals.

Lets continue to improve, make the playoffs, have a positive showing and then, extend 2 years. I think that is a fair take / expectation.

Nothing is open ended. Of course he can be fired at some point. But I dont' even think you fire the guy if we underachieve a little. Believe it or not, sometimes thats not on the coach. We have to stop having things like that hang over our coaches head. This is one of the main reason past and current coaches have veteran laden line-ups and hesitate to give an unproven young guy a shot. Why would they take a shot on an unproven Jeremy Lin when most likely he's going to stink and the fans will call for my head. Instead I will stick with the vet and pray he gets his game together. That's been the mentality of our front office and coaches for decades. Think about the Ewing era. We never held on to a young guy. We never used a draft pick. We constantly traded for vets hoping the next guy would save us from Michael. Everyone trying to rush a championship. Everyone trying to save their jobs and win in the playoffs. Isiah and Layden refusing to rebuild. It's all tied in to this constant spectre of death that hangs over our coaches heads and steals their juice cards.

We have rebuilt D'Antoni's roster 3 times in 3 years. He should win this year with this roster. He has the talent. But if we get to the playoffs and beats us in 5 doesn't necessary mean we need to make major changes(maybe it does, but most likely it doesn't). Doesn't mean we need to find out whose fault it is and GET THAT GUY. Doesn't mean we fire the coach or trade Amare or trade Carmelo or dump this guy or dump that guy. It may simply mean we need to play together some more to build that chemistry that great teams need in order to win. If we keep gutting our rosters and firing our coaches everytime they don't acheive what we demand that they acheive then we are never going to build that chemistry and we will be sitting here in 2052 wondering why we still haven't won.

I just hope that people will like me
mrKnickShot
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2/23/2012  4:52 PM
Bip, how often is it the coach that push to have his roster upgraded or turned over (Larry Brown). I am not sure where MDA stands on all these moves. I don't think anyone who is not part of the inner circle knows.

I will not be okay with a first round weak exit. Maybe that makes me too much of a reactive fan but so be it. I want more. I want playoff wins and I see no reason why it can't happen or should not happen.

Of course I would not want a lateral move but an upgrade to one of the coach-kings.

Lets both hope that we are not having this conversation again in June. That would be really bad.

Bippity10
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2/24/2012  12:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/24/2012  12:49 PM
mrKnickShot wrote:Bip, how often is it the coach that push to have his roster upgraded or turned over (Larry Brown). I am not sure where MDA stands on all these moves. I don't think anyone who is not part of the inner circle knows.

I will not be okay with a first round weak exit. Maybe that makes me too much of a reactive fan but so be it. I want more. I want playoff wins and I see no reason why it can't happen or should not happen.

Of course I would not want a lateral move but an upgrade to one of the coach-kings.

Lets both hope that we are not having this conversation again in June. That would be really bad.

Okay, let's not include Larry Brown in this conversation because he is unique. But most coaches turn over their roster, get the players they want and then once their core is in place they just tweak and teach their players to grow together. We haven't done that. We haven't tweaked. We've had 3 roster upheavals since the man came here. Then we missed training camp this year. Then we added thre main players(Lin, Baron and Smith) midseason. We need to start giving these rosters time to learn to grow together or else we are never going to win.

Just look at the overhaul of the US olympic team for an example. We had these guys come together in a week, play in the olympics, win by a million and then go back to their lives. But when the competition got better we realized we could not do that. So now we have guys together for a few years so that they can learn to play together. It's no different

If we go out meekly I would be upset as well. Doesn't mean you fire the coach. We can't hav ethis hanging over our coaches head. "win in the playoffs or else". Thats not a good thing. It changes the way the coaches coach, the players play etc. Now if we get massacred, D'Antoni loses the team, etc. then you consider a firing. But short of that, we have to come to grips with the fact that the core of this team has not played together at all this season. They actually just started playing together 2 games ago. It's going to take time to compete with the Miami's of the world. Maybe D'antoni gets the team togehter before then, but it's entirely possible that he doesn't. If you fire him and replace him with anyone but say Phil Jackson or Popovich or someone like that guess what? You are starting over again. Then that coach will need time to work with the team and get them to a championship level. Are we going to hold the "better win in the playoffs thing over that coaches head to? When does it end? That mentality has not won us a title in 40 years.

Spurs, Lakers, Mavs etc find good coaches. support them, stick with them and wait. They win titles every few years. We fire a coach every 3 seasons. Can we try a new model?

I just hope that people will like me
mrKnickShot
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2/24/2012  1:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/24/2012  2:05 PM
Bippity10 wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:Bip, how often is it the coach that push to have his roster upgraded or turned over (Larry Brown). I am not sure where MDA stands on all these moves. I don't think anyone who is not part of the inner circle knows.

I will not be okay with a first round weak exit. Maybe that makes me too much of a reactive fan but so be it. I want more. I want playoff wins and I see no reason why it can't happen or should not happen.

Of course I would not want a lateral move but an upgrade to one of the coach-kings.

Lets both hope that we are not having this conversation again in June. That would be really bad.

Okay, let's not include Larry Brown in this conversation because he is unique. But most coaches turn over their roster, get the players they want and then once their core is in place they just tweak and teach their players to grow together. We haven't done that. We haven't tweaked. We've had 3 roster upheavals since the man came here. Then we missed training camp this year. Then we added thre main players(Lin, Baron and Smith) midseason. We need to start giving these rosters time to learn to grow together or else we are never going to win.

Just look at the overhaul of the US olympic team for an example. We had these guys come together in a week, play in the olympics, win by a million and then go back to their lives. But when the competition got better we realized we could not do that. So now we have guys together for a few years so that they can learn to play together. It's no different

If we go out meekly I would be upset as well. Doesn't mean you fire the coach. We can't hav ethis hanging over our coaches head. "win in the playoffs or else". Thats not a good thing. It changes the way the coaches coach, the players play etc. Now if we get massacred, D'Antoni loses the team, etc. then you consider a firing. But short of that, we have to come to grips with the fact that the core of this team has not played together at all this season. They actually just started playing together 2 games ago. It's going to take time to compete with the Miami's of the world. Maybe D'antoni gets the team togehter before then, but it's entirely possible that he doesn't. If you fire him and replace him with anyone but say Phil Jackson or Popovich or someone like that guess what? You are starting over again. Then that coach will need time to work with the team and get them to a championship level. Are we going to hold the "better win in the playoffs thing over that coaches head to? When does it end? That mentality has not won us a title in 40 years.

Spurs, Lakers, Mavs etc find good coaches. support them, stick with them and wait. They win titles every few years. We fire a coach every 3 seasons. Can we try a new model?

Bip, I understand your point regarding stability. What if it is MDA requesting many of these moves because he is not happy with his roster?

Also, as far as the Lakers, they turned over their head coach as often as anyone, until ... they found good ones in PHIL JACKSON and PAT RILEY:

9 Jerry West* 1976–1979 246 145 101 .589 22 8 14 .364 [20]
10 Jack McKinney 1979 14 10 4 .714 — — — — [21]
11 Paul Westhead 1979–1981 161 111 50 .689 19 13 6 .684 1 Championship (1980)[6] [22]
12 Pat Riley 1981–1990 727 533 194 .733 149 102 47 .685 1989–90 NBA Coach of the Year[7]
4 Championships (1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)[6]
One of the top 10 coaches in NBA history[13] [10]
13 Mike Dunleavy 1990–1992 164 101 63 .616 23 13 10 .565 [23]
14 Randy Pfund* 1992–1994 146 66 80 .452 5 2 3 .400 [24]
15 Bill Bertka* 1994 2 1 1 .500 — — — — [25]
16 Magic Johnson* 1994 16 5 11 .313 — — — — [26]
17 Del Harris 1994–1999 340 224 116 .659 36 17 19 .472 1994–95 NBA Coach of the Year[7] [27]
— Bill Bertka* 1999 1 1 0 1.000 — — — — [25]
18 Kurt Rambis 1999 37 24 13 .649 8 3 5 .375 [28]
19 Phil Jackson 1999–2004 410 287 123 .700 92 64 28 .696 3 Championships (2000, 2001, 2002)[6]
One of the top 10 coaches in NBA history[13] [11]
20 Rudy Tomjanovich 2004–2005 43 24 19 .558 — — — — [29]
21 Frank Hamblen 2005 39 10 29 .256 — — — — [30]
— Phil Jacksondagger 2005–2011 492 323 169 .657 89 54 35 .607 2 Championships (2009, 2010)[6]
One of the top 10 coaches in NBA history[13] [11]
22 Mike Brown 2011–present — — — — — — — — [31]

We tried many coaches and then got Pat Riley and boom! Success. Not saying that MDA is not "That Guy". But sometimes it takes franchises many coaching churns to find "That Guy". That is for the GM to decide and I have confidence that (hopefully) Glenn Grunwald makes the right move. I like the job that he has done this year.

Also, you say that this franchise has been unstable because they keep firing their coaches (like the lakers do). Which one of these coaches should they have kept:

19 Don Chaney 2001–2004 184 72 112 .391 — — — — [30]
20 Herb Williams* 2004 1 1 0 1.000 — — — — [11]
21 Lenny Wilkens 2004–2005 81 40 41 .494 4 0 4 .000 One of the top 10 coaches in NBA history[5] [31]
— Herb Williams* 2005 43 16 27 .372 — — — — [11]
22 Larry Brown 2005–2006 82 23 59 .280 — — — — [32]
23 Isiah Thomas 2006–2008 164 56 108 .341 — — — — [33]

Nalod
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2/24/2012  2:09 PM
I don't know how old you are but the Show Time Lakers were handed to Riles on a platter.

McKinny gets injured real bad falling off a bike and Westhead takes over as assistant. Westhead is not nba head coach material but still WINS A TITLE. His act got old fast and Magic Johnson orchestrates a mutiny where Riles gets the gig without any head coach experience. HE does a good job with a championship core and grows his brand.

We tried many coaches and got to the finals once with Riles. Nothing.

Lakers got lots of rings.

Always good to rebuild with a coach and a system you want to employ.

Makes no sense to go thru all we went thru to get a good roster together and then make a change.

Team is playing good defense, is playing together and likes its coach.

and, Phuck Pat Riley!

mrKnickShot
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2/24/2012  2:15 PM
haha - Most great coaches who win rings have great teams. That is the old argument, is it the players or the coach? Or both? The Bulls, could any coach have done it? Maybe, Maybe not - we will never know.

The Shaq/Kobe lakers did not do that well without Jax.

Phuck Riley? Ok. But the man was a damn good coach. And don't underestimate what he did here with a far-from championship team.

And Jax also walked into a gold mine after Doug Collins. The team was rearing and ready to go.

Bippity10
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2/24/2012  4:10 PM
Pat Riley made one finals appearance and won no titles with us. He was not much more successful than D'Antoni was in Phoenix.

We act like these legendary coaches grow on trees. Carlisle is not leaving Dallas, Pop is not leaving San Antonio. Pat Riley runs Miami and is close to a title. LB is never coming back here. The only outside shot is PJax. Other than that we are going to have to find a good coach that has had success, give him the tools he needs and then be patient as his team learns to play and win together. Guess what, we have that now. We just put the team together. 3 key players just joined the team within the last 10 days. the res of the roster hasn't played together for a season yet. What is wrong with Knick fans that we are even thinking about firing the coach. When does stability become important?

As for D'Antoni possibly being behind the moves. That's not important. It's not important who is "behind the moves". Again this is a team/coach/organization. WE make the moves to fit the coach and then wait and see them through. That last step is the one we havent' tried since the Patrick Ewing days

I just hope that people will like me
Isola suggests Lin as suggested by Melo was fabricated.......

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