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Post Trade The Knicks Lack Balance and Depth
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mrKnickShot
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1/31/2012  2:14 PM
misterearl wrote:Just The Facts Ma'am...

KNICKS NEED TO LOOK FOR EFFICIENT SCORING

"While New York has more players who are able to create shots, Denver has more players who are efficient with their shooting. The Knicks have eight players with a true shooting percentage lower than 55.0 percent, while the Nuggets only have three.

Despite lacking a player who can create shots for himself at a high level, the Nuggets have the N.B.A.’s best offense, ranked by offensive efficiency. Meanwhile, the Knicks, with multiple high-volume shooters, find themselves with the league’s 24th-best offense. It appears that the ability to score efficiently is more important than the ability to create shots.

In fact, this isn’t a new for the Knicks, who in recent history have attempted to fill their roster with volume scorers (Tracy McGrady, Larry Hughes, Eddy Curry, Zach Randolph, Jamal Crawford, Stephon Marbury) with disregard for efficiency to dubious results.

So does this all mean? For basketball analysts it means the high-volume scorer who lacks the ability to sink shots at a mediocre rate is likely overrated by all but a percentage of statisticians. For the Knicks’ current roster, it means that the team has to work on improving the quality and lowering the frequency of shots among their low-efficiency scorers. For the Knicks’ front office it means that perhaps they should abandon their current method of evaluating players and consult with a statistician before their next franchise-altering trade." - Mike Kurylo

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/31/knicks-need-to-look-for-efficient-scoring/

Just throwing this out there but is it possible that George Karl is actually a better offensive mind/coach then our Mad Offensive Genius? Of course they have 2 PG's in Lawson and Miller (who would look sexy in a knicks uniform) but does that make up for this gross discrepancy in regards to efficiency?

Fields, Melo, Amare and Chandler should be somewhat coachable to a point that we should be able to be somewhat efficient.

AUTOADVERT
smackeddog
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1/31/2012  3:21 PM
I know it's tempting to get all nostalgic about the pre-trade team, but I wonder what kind of shape we'd really be in if we hadn't done it. Sure we'd have flexibility, but have you seen Raymond Felton play this year? He stinks! he's shooting 37% FG, and 20% from 3pt, his passing is poor and fans are already starting to turn against him. He also looks a bit fatter this season- I do worry that he's going to eat his way out of the league in the years ahead. If he was still with us, we'd be killing him right now.

Also, Wilson Chandler would be in China, so we'd still have been in pretty bad shape.

RonRon
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1/31/2012  7:35 PM
smackeddog wrote:I know it's tempting to get all nostalgic about the pre-trade team, but I wonder what kind of shape we'd really be in if we hadn't done it. Sure we'd have flexibility, but have you seen Raymond Felton play this year? He stinks! he's shooting 37% FG, and 20% from 3pt, his passing is poor and fans are already starting to turn against him. He also looks a bit fatter this season- I do worry that he's going to eat his way out of the league in the years ahead. If he was still with us, we'd be killing him right now.

Also, Wilson Chandler would be in China, so we'd still have been in pretty bad shape.

He had a coach, system, and the team around him, that fitted together well.
Many of them will not truly admit it but they

Gallo
Chandler
Felton

Never wanted to leave, as they were part of the reason that turned the franchise around and were underrated, especially when they played their best ball.
Their ego's were hurt, for Gallo he continued to do his job and face reality, as a true professional.
Its been stated that Wilson Chandler was truly mentally hurt, I don't think he liked the uncertainty of the Nuggets future with the lockout.
I do not think any of them would come back at discounts, at least, not in the near future.
Amare helped turn this franchise around last year, but those guys were a big part of it.
They have the physical skills to fit the system and the "locker room presence" at least not a cancer.

David Lee would actually fit this team vs Amare's production this year.
Lee grew from a poor 1v1 defender to SF/PF tweener to a solid hustle rebounder.
He now is also a point/forward, utilizing his ability to penetrate, and most importantly his ambidextrous ability to finish.
Playing F/C facilitator and rebounder in Dantoni's system helped developed his ability to help create and improved his shot.
Especially with Melo, TC, TD and Iman, Lee's skills and game would fit much better than Amare's.

Amare fitted much better last year because of his ability to play the Center position and his ability to draw "stars"
But as a forward, Lee would really help much better, and cost slightly less.
He would be much more efficient with his skill set alone, especially since the extra salary could be used to sign an extra player or 2.

Amare doesn't have that room to DUNK easily, with TC drawing that extra help defender alone.
We also do not have the shooters to spread the floor, with the ability to penetrate.

Looking back at a game earlier today, when Amare had that game winning block on Lebron vs Miami, we had a totally different team.
Although, we were small, we were A LOT FASTER, and fitted much better as whole.
The players complimented each other, earning room for each other, and Billups was the 2nd/3rd scorer that had no fear to take over games.
For the price we payed for Melo, Nene or at least Billups should have came without giving up Felton and even MozGoV.
Not sure if it could have matched up financially but as a talent POV, it still would favor Denver.
I don't know if we would be under or over the cap, if signing a player like Dalembert or Kris Humphries would still be possible, assuming we trade Turiaf.

Felton
Billups
Melo
Amare
Dalembert ???

Iman
TD
Fields
Shawne
MosGoV

misterearl
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2/1/2012  7:33 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/1/2012  7:58 AM
The Knicks have six basketball players who can be trusted.

Shumpert - who can be trusted to play defense with passion
Fields - who can be trusted to bring the versatility that any team needs
Carmelo - who can be trusted to deal up two defenders when he pleases

Amar'e - who can be trusted to be vocal, especially on his layups
Ty Chandler - who can be trusted to police the paint
Jeremy Lin - who can be trusted as a Garden favorite, to hit the open man, which is never a bad thing

The rest, who are DEEPLY flawed, can take a hike. all of them.

Toney Douglas plays in reverse and is damaged goods, mentally and physically
Lupe Fiasco aka Bill Walker is a turnover machine
Jared Jeffries has no offensive skills whatsoever, none
Steve Novak is far too timid

Mike Bibby is 87 years old
Jerome Jordan is raw. He may get a pass because he is from Jamaica, but that's it
Renaldo Balkman does not match up well against the new breed of taller/ highly skilled swingmen around the league
Josh Harrelson is on the bubble, yeah I said it, check his fg pct


Seriously

once a knick always a knick
airchibundo507
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2/1/2012  10:02 AM
Jorts = solid defender, our best rotational shooter
Jeffries = solid versatile defender; liability on offense while camping at the arc but still a rotational player imo
Fields = better served coming off the bench if he can't hit the outside shot consistently

So we truly have 6-7 NBA rotational players. Adding Davis and JR gives us 8-9.

JR gives us at least 36 minutes a night of elite outside shooting. Imagine a line-up of:
Davis/JR/Melo/Jorts/Amare

Amare could abuse that spacing. That looks like a D'Antoni line-up.

"LINISH HIM!"
misterearl
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2/1/2012  10:36 AM
Just My Imagination, Running Away With me

airchibundo507 wrote:So we truly have 6-7 NBA rotational players. Adding Davis and JR gives us 8-9.

SFX: alarm clock

Baron Davis has yet to suit up and JR is a knucklehead. Talented, but a knucklehead. No thank you.

airchibundo507 wrote:Jorts = solid defender, our best rotational shooter

WTF is a rotational shooter? The rotation on Fields' shot looks pretty good from here. Jorts lacks a reliable low post move.


airchibundo507 wrote:JR gives us at least 36 minutes a night of elite outside shooting. Imagine a line-up...

You lost me at "imagine"...

once a knick always a knick
martin
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2/1/2012  11:00 AM
misterearl wrote:Just My Imagination, Running Away With me

airchibundo507 wrote:So we truly have 6-7 NBA rotational players. Adding Davis and JR gives us 8-9.

SFX: alarm clock

Baron Davis has yet to suit up and JR is a knucklehead. Talented, but a knucklehead. No thank you.

airchibundo507 wrote:Jorts = solid defender, our best rotational shooter

WTF is a rotational shooter? The rotation on Fields' shot looks pretty good from here. Jorts lacks a reliable low post move.


airchibundo507 wrote:JR gives us at least 36 minutes a night of elite outside shooting. Imagine a line-up...

You lost me at "imagine"...

no JR, even as a March-whenever rental?

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misterearl
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2/1/2012  11:11 AM
The Answer Man Worries About The Repatriation of JR In The Big City

martin wrote:no JR, even as a March-whenever rental?

Three Conditions

1. From the moment JR lands at Kennedy Airport, John Starks is assigned as personal chaperone.

2. JR gets a condo in Elmsford, walking distance to the MSG training center, not in Manhattan.

3. He gets ALL of Toney Douglas' minutes

once a knick always a knick
airchibundo507
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2/1/2012  11:18 AM
misterearl wrote:
SFX: alarm clock

Baron Davis has yet to suit up and JR is a knucklehead. Talented, but a knucklehead. No thank you.

Baron has yet to suit up? That's exactly why I put "adding", as in, he hasn't played for the team yet.
JR's a knucklehead that shoots 40% from behind the arc and has expressed interest in playing in NY on multiple occasions. Chances are he plays here whether you like it or not. And guess what? He'll help the squad dramatically.

WTF is a rotational shooter? The rotation on Fields' shot looks pretty good from here. Jorts lacks a reliable low post move.

I meant that he's the best shooter in the rotation. Jorts doesn't need a post move if he continues to excel at spacing the floor, but he's already shown the ability to put the ball on the floor and grab offensive rebounds. He's quite versatile on that end.


airchibundo507 wrote:You lost me at "imagine"...

sorry, I'll put it in layman's terms next time

"LINISH HIM!"
gunsnewing
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2/1/2012  12:30 PM
misterearl wrote:The Answer Man Worries About The Repatriation of JR In The Big City

martin wrote:no JR, even as a March-whenever rental?

Three Conditions

1. From the moment JR lands at Kennedy Airport, John Starks is assigned as personal chaperone.

2. JR gets a condo in Elmsford, walking distance to the MSG training center, not in Manhattan.

3. He gets ALL of Toney Douglas' minutes

LOL!

y2zipper
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2/1/2012  3:09 PM
RonRon wrote:
smackeddog wrote:I know it's tempting to get all nostalgic about the pre-trade team, but I wonder what kind of shape we'd really be in if we hadn't done it. Sure we'd have flexibility, but have you seen Raymond Felton play this year? He stinks! he's shooting 37% FG, and 20% from 3pt, his passing is poor and fans are already starting to turn against him. He also looks a bit fatter this season- I do worry that he's going to eat his way out of the league in the years ahead. If he was still with us, we'd be killing him right now.

Also, Wilson Chandler would be in China, so we'd still have been in pretty bad shape.

He had a coach, system, and the team around him, that fitted together well.
Many of them will not truly admit it but they

Gallo
Chandler
Felton

Never wanted to leave, as they were part of the reason that turned the franchise around and were underrated, especially when they played their best ball.
Their ego's were hurt, for Gallo he continued to do his job and face reality, as a true professional.
Its been stated that Wilson Chandler was truly mentally hurt, I don't think he liked the uncertainty of the Nuggets future with the lockout.
I do not think any of them would come back at discounts, at least, not in the near future.
Amare helped turn this franchise around last year, but those guys were a big part of it.
They have the physical skills to fit the system and the "locker room presence" at least not a cancer.

David Lee would actually fit this team vs Amare's production this year.
Lee grew from a poor 1v1 defender to SF/PF tweener to a solid hustle rebounder.
He now is also a point/forward, utilizing his ability to penetrate, and most importantly his ambidextrous ability to finish.
Playing F/C facilitator and rebounder in Dantoni's system helped developed his ability to help create and improved his shot.
Especially with Melo, TC, TD and Iman, Lee's skills and game would fit much better than Amare's.

Amare fitted much better last year because of his ability to play the Center position and his ability to draw "stars"
But as a forward, Lee would really help much better, and cost slightly less.
He would be much more efficient with his skill set alone, especially since the extra salary could be used to sign an extra player or 2.

Amare doesn't have that room to DUNK easily, with TC drawing that extra help defender alone.
We also do not have the shooters to spread the floor, with the ability to penetrate.

Looking back at a game earlier today, when Amare had that game winning block on Lebron vs Miami, we had a totally different team.
Although, we were small, we were A LOT FASTER, and fitted much better as whole.
The players complimented each other, earning room for each other, and Billups was the 2nd/3rd scorer that had no fear to take over games.
For the price we payed for Melo, Nene or at least Billups should have came without giving up Felton and even MozGoV.
Not sure if it could have matched up financially but as a talent POV, it still would favor Denver.
I don't know if we would be under or over the cap, if signing a player like Dalembert or Kris Humphries would still be possible, assuming we trade Turiaf.

Felton
Billups
Melo
Amare
Dalembert ???

Iman
TD
Fields
Shawne
MosGoV

2 problems with your scenario...

1. How in the world does Billups get to NY without the Melo trade?

2. New York doesn't have any cap room to sign Dalembert after they sign Melo. (Remember, every free agent center signed for a lot of money in the offseason. Dalembert got 7 million per from Houston.)

nixluva
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2/1/2012  3:19 PM
PEOPLE!!! Can we come back to earth here for a minute. Do you all realize that fans have lost all sense of reason when it comes to this team. MELO HAS PLAYED ALL OF 45 GAMES as a Knick. You would think we've had 2 years of failure the way people are down on this roster. We had almost no preparation this year and guys were coming off injury this summer and couldn't workout as they usually do. Then you have this insane schedule on top of that. The level of Impatience is at an all time high in NY. I'm usual the one preaching patience, but this year it's just off the hook how impatient fans are and how no one wants to look at the circumstances that have caused some of the issues we have.

This was a screwed up season once the lockout happened. Still there's a lot of opportunity for this team to get it together and get back into the mix. It's tougher now, but not impossible. I'm pleased with how Fields, Shump, Jorts, Lin and even Walker have shown good signs.

Bonn1997
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2/1/2012  3:27 PM
y2zipper wrote:
RonRon wrote:
smackeddog wrote:I know it's tempting to get all nostalgic about the pre-trade team, but I wonder what kind of shape we'd really be in if we hadn't done it. Sure we'd have flexibility, but have you seen Raymond Felton play this year? He stinks! he's shooting 37% FG, and 20% from 3pt, his passing is poor and fans are already starting to turn against him. He also looks a bit fatter this season- I do worry that he's going to eat his way out of the league in the years ahead. If he was still with us, we'd be killing him right now.

Also, Wilson Chandler would be in China, so we'd still have been in pretty bad shape.

He had a coach, system, and the team around him, that fitted together well.
Many of them will not truly admit it but they

Gallo
Chandler
Felton

Never wanted to leave, as they were part of the reason that turned the franchise around and were underrated, especially when they played their best ball.
Their ego's were hurt, for Gallo he continued to do his job and face reality, as a true professional.
Its been stated that Wilson Chandler was truly mentally hurt, I don't think he liked the uncertainty of the Nuggets future with the lockout.
I do not think any of them would come back at discounts, at least, not in the near future.
Amare helped turn this franchise around last year, but those guys were a big part of it.
They have the physical skills to fit the system and the "locker room presence" at least not a cancer.

David Lee would actually fit this team vs Amare's production this year.
Lee grew from a poor 1v1 defender to SF/PF tweener to a solid hustle rebounder.
He now is also a point/forward, utilizing his ability to penetrate, and most importantly his ambidextrous ability to finish.
Playing F/C facilitator and rebounder in Dantoni's system helped developed his ability to help create and improved his shot.
Especially with Melo, TC, TD and Iman, Lee's skills and game would fit much better than Amare's.

Amare fitted much better last year because of his ability to play the Center position and his ability to draw "stars"
But as a forward, Lee would really help much better, and cost slightly less.
He would be much more efficient with his skill set alone, especially since the extra salary could be used to sign an extra player or 2.

Amare doesn't have that room to DUNK easily, with TC drawing that extra help defender alone.
We also do not have the shooters to spread the floor, with the ability to penetrate.

Looking back at a game earlier today, when Amare had that game winning block on Lebron vs Miami, we had a totally different team.
Although, we were small, we were A LOT FASTER, and fitted much better as whole.
The players complimented each other, earning room for each other, and Billups was the 2nd/3rd scorer that had no fear to take over games.
For the price we payed for Melo, Nene or at least Billups should have came without giving up Felton and even MozGoV.
Not sure if it could have matched up financially but as a talent POV, it still would favor Denver.
I don't know if we would be under or over the cap, if signing a player like Dalembert or Kris Humphries would still be possible, assuming we trade Turiaf.

Felton
Billups
Melo
Amare
Dalembert ???

Iman
TD
Fields
Shawne
MosGoV

2 problems with your scenario...

1. How in the world does Billups get to NY without the Melo trade?

2. New York doesn't have any cap room to sign Dalembert after they sign Melo. (Remember, every free agent center signed for a lot of money in the offseason. Dalembert got 7 million per from Houston.)


Saying he got 7 mil per is deceiving because he only got a one year contract! (The 2nd year is a team option.) You probably could have gotten Dalembert for a long-term MLE deal that would total more than $7 mil in guaranteed money.
martin
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2/1/2012  3:55 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:Saying he got 7 mil per is deceiving because he only got a one year contract! (The 2nd year is a team option.) You probably could have gotten Dalembert for a long-term MLE deal that would total more than $7 mil in guaranteed money.

is that they way finances work? Pretty sure he could have signed multi-year at MLE money if he wanted.... but he didn't.

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Bonn1997
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2/1/2012  4:24 PM
martin wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Saying he got 7 mil per is deceiving because he only got a one year contract! (The 2nd year is a team option.) You probably could have gotten Dalembert for a long-term MLE deal that would total more than $7 mil in guaranteed money.

is that they way finances work? Pretty sure he could have signed multi-year at MLE money if he wanted.... but he didn't.


I don't know what other offers he had. I'm assuming 4 years, $20 mil guaranteed (or whatever the MLE is now) would be more appealing than $7 mil guaranteed but you never know. Maybe he only wanted a 1 year deal.
CrushAlot
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2/2/2012  12:16 AM
This seems like a thread for last February. The trade is done and a lot of posters on here were very outspoken about how bad it was for the Knicks. Also, I think it is hard to criticize the interim gm for making the move to lock up a very good center. Long term you have to do that deal. The only scary thing is not having the amnesty if Amare truly is brokendown.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
misterearl
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2/2/2012  10:09 AM
CrushAlot wrote:This seems like a thread for last February. The trade is done and a lot of posters on here were very outspoken about how bad it was for the Knicks. Also, I think it is hard to criticize the interim gm for making the move to lock up a very good center. Long term you have to do that deal. The only scary thing is not having the amnesty if Amare truly is brokendown.

This is a thread for now. Speaking of balance, did you know that the WORST shooter (32pct) on the Knicks roster, Toney Douglas, is THIRD in shots (222) attempted?

Only Carmelo (354) and Amar'e (289) have attempted more.

Get the ball to Fields (164 shots/ 47pct) and Tyson Chandler (98 shots/ 70 pct)

Did I mention Jeremy Lin is shooting 47 per cent?

once a knick always a knick
jrodmc
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2/2/2012  11:41 AM
gunsnewing wrote:
misterearl wrote:The Answer Man Worries About The Repatriation of JR In The Big City

martin wrote:no JR, even as a March-whenever rental?

Three Conditions

1. From the moment JR lands at Kennedy Airport, John Starks is assigned as personal chaperone.

2. JR gets a condo in Elmsford, walking distance to the MSG training center, not in Manhattan.

3. He gets ALL of Toney Douglas' minutes locker.


LOL!

Fixed.

gunsnewing
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2/2/2012  11:46 AM
lol very creative
RonRon
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2/2/2012  12:10 PM
jrodmc wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:
misterearl wrote:The Answer Man Worries About The Repatriation of JR In The Big City

martin wrote:no JR, even as a March-whenever rental?

Three Conditions

1. From the moment JR lands at Kennedy Airport, John Starks is assigned as personal chaperone.

2. JR gets a condo in Elmsford, walking distance to the MSG training center, not in Manhattan.

3. He gets ALL of Toney Douglas' minutes locker.


LOL!

Fixed.

Lin has to at least get minutes over Bibby and become part of the rotation first.
I think he is the best pure PG on our active roster now, an upgrade at TD at the position.
TD would be suited better playing the SG, with Lin's penetration, TD might actually even be able to square up and get better looking 3pointers.

While Iman's defense at the PG, allows him to play minutes at the position, Lin > than TD at the position if given the opportunity.
Lin should get real minutes with players that can make shots, not with JJ.
He should get some PT period, allowing Melo to focus on being a threat, and not have to worry about playing Point/Forward.
His play could help Fields, Amare, TC, Melo, Iman, TD, Novak, Walker, Jordan, and even Balkman.
He can help us get better looks and higher % shots, with his consistent penetration, and ability to push the tempo.
It is apparent in his limited time here that he understand the position greater than Iman, TD, and has the ability Bibby doesn't have.
Why he isn't getting a chance is frustrating to fans, anyone with any sense of the NBA game, and with the coaching staff.
His play making skills, ability to facilitate, ability to penetrate, ability to handle the basketball, and ability to stay in front of his man defensively is superb over our current PG play. Everyone sees this, we don't have to know whats going on his practice. A couple of us here have been saying it since we acquired him but he has yet had that opportunity to get meaningful minutes. Now there are more people here gaining confidence in his play, being given a chance to see what he is capable of bringing. Look at the players in Melo, TC, Amare, and whoever that is on the bench when they see him produce. They know has the ability to help this team in areas we have been lacking. I would like to be able to retain this kid, with an extra year, at the cheap so we can have his bird rights. He has the ability to learn, produce, and willingness to be mentored and coached. At the very least he should be given a fair chance to become our 2nd/3rd string PG. And yes, I do believe he has the ability to even become our starting PG if everything goes right, this year. Unfortunately its a ladder he must climb, while he hasn't been given that opportunity, although he has earned it through the poor play of our PGs and his limited chances he got in his "garbage" time.....

It doesn't matter if Baron Davis comes back, if given the chance, he has the ability to prove he is the 2nd best PG behind him, while Davis gets in better shape.
It would allow Iman, TD, Fields, and Melo to concentrate on areas that are the strengths of their game. Whether Amare and TC can feed off this energy with his play is uknown.
But they can benefit greatly, with penetration, and good shots, with the ability to grab the offensive rebounds and get better position.
He went to 4 years at Harvard, played with a horrible team, played behind Monta/Curry, and the D League, and has 2 years to get a feel of the game while the time to improve and work on his game in this 1.5 NBA years. He is not a rookie and has been playing this position from the beginning of time. He "gets it" something TD doesn't understand at the PG position.
He has the experience over Iman, while Iman has to learn on the fly. He has been waiting for the opportunity and working on his game in practice for his 1.5 years in the NBA.
Give this kid the opportunity is all I am asking, before Baron Davis comes back, while the door closes on him...

Post Trade The Knicks Lack Balance and Depth

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