holfresh wrote:

misterearl wrote:

holfresh wrote:

misterearl wrote:

colombian0725 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Come on guys...I understand the guys who don't really watch the Knicks play every game, but have to write the articles anyway to make a living, come up with stuff like this...But the guys here who watch every ebb and flow, I'm surprised...Amare's production has everything to do with a PG being able to run the pick and roll...I was shocked along with many others here to see Billups unable to run the pick and roll...Not so coincidentally, Felton left when Carmelo came...This isn't about Carmelo and Amare...It's about a PG on this roster being able to adequately run the pick and roll...My proof?, glad u asked...Last year Amare was also not as productive as this year when Felton had trouble running the pick and roll..The moment Felton picked it up Amare exploded...It's not like everyone who watches the Knicks everyday doesn't know this...

So when we signed Amare to that 100 million dollars it should have said "Warning cannot create own shot. PG required."

holfresh - scoring is only ONE aspect of making a contribution to a team. Damn a guard who can run a pick and roll. If Amar'e is NOT scoring, why shouldn't he be EXPECTED to compensate with solid contributions in other aspects of the game?

If Amar'e cannot bring other high-level skills to the floor, as ANY superstar is EXPECTED, (rebounding, defending, set a savage pick, passing) then, on THIS roster - with THIS coach, he is barely more serviceable than Jared Jeffries.

Yeah, I said it.

Amare has played for a coach who never asked him to play defense his entire career...I'll go one further...It's was his coaches strategy the his players play no defense to save themselves to keep up the pace on the offensive end...I submit to you, it is impossible to learn to play defense in 12 games after 8 years of not playing it...Last year, there was a stretch that Amare played decent defense but he couldn't keep up the pace...

I'm shocked given what AMARE has done for this franchise that it's come to this...He has made this team relevant again by himself...Not with Gallo...Not with Moz...Not with Will Chan...It was all about Amare last year...Here we are trying to gel again and the doubters rare their heads..Amazing..

Excuses Are For Chumps

The only thing Amar'e did for the franchise was attract more media attention and make the franchise appear cool again. To give Amar'e all the credit for performances last season completely ignores the toughness contribution of Felton, the defense of Wilson Chandler, the confident shooting of Gallo, the surprise that was Mozgov and the rest of the supporting cast. Amar'es most significant contribution was the air of confidence. It was NOT ALL about Amar'e. The hype was important to the franchise to signal change but the most SIGNIFICANT change was that they ENJOYED playing together.

We could feel the team coming together and it was NOT a one man show.

Carmelo brings another shot of stardom. Whether his talent(s) will mesh with Stoudemire, remains to be seen.

It's cool when two guys get on the same page as we learned with Clyde and The Pearl. But NEVER think that Clyde and Pearl were so one-dimensional to think they were the entire show. Or that it was only about them simply getting their points. The entire cast of the 73 Championship Knicks was engaged and worked as one. You had the intellectually accurate three point shooter (before there was a three point shot) Jerry Lucas, Dave DeBusschere, Bill Bradley and a better than average bench.

They were not superstars but they enjoyed playing together.

Paraphrasing the lyrics of Janet Jackson, "What have Amar'e and Carmelo done for you lately?"

19 and 8 in case u missed it...And lately you mean the 12 games which would be the 4th game in a normal season...

We were a 30 win team before Amare got here with the studs you mention...

In a very general sense, Amare was the reason we made the playoffs. Sure there were other factors, but this team was bad before he got here and he turned it into a .500 team with his 25-8 per game play. Now we have another star in here. Amare's numbers will drop, and if they stay around 19-8 i don't see that as a bad thing. He is the second option on offense. I just hope that 19-8 comes to him easier. It will with a real PG. Hahn couldn't be more right. We did it with Duhon, then did it better with Felton. These are PGs that are average playmakers. Insert an average playmaker in this system with Melo and Stoudemire (Davis is very much above average when healthy) and this is a completely different team. Melo will get his 25-27 ppg easily, Stoudemire will get his 20-22 easily and all will be good. With an average to above average PG we are a top 4 team in the east. With improved depth we are a contender. As much as it hurts now, we need to ride this thing out.

And to answer the thread question, yes they like playing together very much i'm sure. They are 2 stars who are friends. They just need to right supporting cast to pull it all together. Chandler and Shumpert pull it all together on defense, now we just need the PG to pull it together on offense.

misterearl wrote:Point/ Counterpoint

knixkix - "And to answer the thread question, yes they like playing together very much i'm sure."

Based on what exactly? Their on-court body language suggests confusion and discord. What makes you "sure" they enjoy playing together?

knixkix - "They are 2 stars who are friends."

Hold up, just because they have been seen on the court together, does NOT make them friends. Has Lala ever hooked Amar'e up with one of her buddies?

"They just need to right supporting cast to pull it all together."

"Right" supporting casts require years of careful selection and cohesion. Guys need specific roles and must compliment each other's skill sets. The bargain basement strategy of picking through leftovers is not a way to build quality depth. The next person who suggests a wet fantasy trade of our dreck for someone eles's talent gets 50 pushups and 5 laps.

"Chandler and Shumpert pull it all together on defense, now we just need the PG to pull it together on offense."

One thing is certain, the "right" point guard will have a large task managing expectations as the next designated savior.

Pretty sure LaLa hooked him up with Ciara. They are always together at events and promotions. Anthony invited him to his wedding. Amare spoke at his wedding. Typically those things only occur when you consider that person your "friend", who you agree with that? Would you have someone speak at your wedding on your behalf who isn't a friend or family member?

No one said putting together a supporting cast was going to be a fast process. My point was we have effectively started by adding Chandler, Shumpert, and hopefully Davis. In general, we have found 3 pieces who fit effectively alongside Melo and Stoudemire. It appears as if Harrellson might be a solid player to round out the rotation as well. So in general, we probably need to add another PG, wing who can shoot and score off the bench, and another big man off the bench. It might take another year or two, but once we do that we will be ready.

As for Melo. He's always been a ball stopper no matter where he played. He's not a fit for this system and I've always felt that he would have a problem playing with someone else that needed the ball all the time.

Bippity10 wrote:

MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:To my brain, it's not a question of whether they like playing with each other or not, it's whether they are willing to try; whether they understand that both will be affected and that there will be some pain in the process of learning to coexist. And this, they are willing. So this is a strong sign.

Agreed, but I do have one problem. In Boston all three guys took a step back in the name of team. The result was a title. Here it seems like Carmelo is the same guy he is everywhere. I think he's trying to be a team player and saying the right things, so I I'm not going to criticize him but.......Lets say Baron comes in and is healthy. He's another guy that can score. At some point Carmelo is going to have to take a step back and give up some shots and maybe do less of the one on one. No?

When Billups first came to Denver, Melo average 22.8 ppg the entire season (it seems like an anomaly between his high scoring seasons). That's the season the Nuggets had homecourt advantage in the postseason, where Melo lit it up and carried the Nuggets to the WCF.

In 39 minutes Carmelo attempted 27 shots. He made a third of them shooting 33 per cent which is not good.

In 22 minutes Toney Douglas took 12 shots and made 4.

Their total of 39 shots was nearly a half of the 73 attempts.

In 22 minutes Amar'e attempted 7 shots. He made 4.

You do the math.

Bippity10 wrote:

MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:To my brain, it's not a question of whether they like playing with each other or not, it's whether they are willing to try; whether they understand that both will be affected and that there will be some pain in the process of learning to coexist. And this, they are willing. So this is a strong sign.

Agreed, but I do have one problem. In Boston all three guys took a step back in the name of team. The result was a title. Here it seems like Carmelo is the same guy he is everywhere. I think he's trying to be a team player and saying the right things, so I I'm not going to criticize him but.......Lets say Baron comes in and is healthy. He's another guy that can score. At some point Carmelo is going to have to take a step back and give up some shots and maybe do less of the one on one. No?

Bonn, I don't think its so much that Melo doesn't want to allow others to shoot. Its a matter of his moves. His move is to get the ball jab step, swing ball overhead, jab step, drive. It completely stops the flow of the team, and especially if in that process he's not looking to pass. Its just not good for a team oriented game.

Bippity10 wrote:Amare needs a PG. Without a PG he does not get the ball in spots that will make him successful. Instead he's forced to create for himself which is not his strong suit. He can do it, but not on a regular basis. You need him finishing off the pick and role. That's his bread and butter.

As for Melo. He's always been a ball stopper no matter where he played. He's not a fit for this system and I've always felt that he would have a problem playing with someone else that needed the ball all the time.

Wait a max contract player that cannot create for him self? what? why? he is such a prolific scorer huh. So we have a Max contract player that needs a point guard to score points. So your saying a max player that can't create for himself, rebound or defend. Holy crap man. We sure know how to pick em.

Wait a max contract player that cannot create for him self? what? why? he is such a prolific scorer huh. So we have a Max contract player that needs a point guard to score points. So your saying a max player that can't create for himself, rebound or defend. Holy crap man. We sure know how to pick em.