the owners need to stop being stupid. that would solve a lot of problems right there.

jrodmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:Let's step back a second. The problem is completely OWNER related. They have been the ones paying too much for mediocre talent. I'd point out that top players used to make MUCH more money in the previous CBA. Now the top players money has come down and the middle class players are making more. The Owners still do dumb things like pay Joe Johnson way too much. No matter what system you impose the dumb owners will make mistakes, which is all these changes over the years have been about. They're trying to make a foolproof system... for the owners!!!

The poor poor players operating in a "rigged system" that pays mediocre talent and no talent (ECurry) too much. Those stupid OWNERS!!! How dare they overpay for PLAYERS!!! Didn't they know that PLAYERS would just love to give back money if they
1) underperform
2) are injured and don't perform
3) just don't perform at all

Those poor PLAYERS, mental giants that they are, who are only playing in those arenas in that stupid, mismanaged NBA because otherwise they'd all be captains of industry or Prime Ministers of their own countries! Why, if it wasn't for these stupid OWNERS and all their stupid MONEY, I bet these PLAYERS would be running and organizing their own league, just like they did back in the 1920's and '30's in other sports, purely out of love for the game! Why, in no time at all, without all this NBA MISMANAGEMENT, and OWNER FINANCIAL STUPIDITY, simply brilliant people like LeHoe and Wade would be building the league of leagues! Why I'm sure Nike and Adidas and Coca Cola would just be lining up to pay PLAYERS huge sums of money when they end up playing in open college gyms and playgrounds with live streams to YouTube! (That of course, somebody else would have to open for them and ref for them and keep score for them and run the cam for them and...)

LOL.. exactly.. but wait.. this is just a hobby for these owners.. I mean they should feel fine with losing millions, because the players feel they deserve to take most of the revenue.. who needs the owners and their league.. I am sure the guys playing for "And 1" is making a killing.. smh

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:Let's step back a second. The problem is completely OWNER related. They have been the ones paying too much for mediocre talent. I'd point out that top players used to make MUCH more money in the previous CBA. Now the top players money has come down and the middle class players are making more. The Owners still do dumb things like pay Joe Johnson way too much. No matter what system you impose the dumb owners will make mistakes, which is all these changes over the years have been about. They're trying to make a foolproof system... for the owners!!!

The poor poor players operating in a "rigged system" that pays mediocre talent and no talent (ECurry) too much. Those stupid OWNERS!!! How dare they overpay for PLAYERS!!! Didn't they know that PLAYERS would just love to give back money if they
1) underperform
2) are injured and don't perform
3) just don't perform at all

Those poor PLAYERS, mental giants that they are, who are only playing in those arenas in that stupid, mismanaged NBA because otherwise they'd all be captains of industry or Prime Ministers of their own countries! Why, if it wasn't for these stupid OWNERS and all their stupid MONEY, I bet these PLAYERS would be running and organizing their own league, just like they did back in the 1920's and '30's in other sports, purely out of love for the game! Why, in no time at all, without all this NBA MISMANAGEMENT, and OWNER FINANCIAL STUPIDITY, simply brilliant people like LeHoe and Wade would be building the league of leagues! Why I'm sure Nike and Adidas and Coca Cola would just be lining up to pay PLAYERS huge sums of money when they end up playing in open college gyms and playgrounds with live streams to YouTube! (That of course, somebody else would have to open for them and ref for them and keep score for them and run the cam for them and...)

LOL.. exactly.. but wait.. this is just a hobby for these owners.. I mean they should feel fine with losing millions, because the players feel they deserve to take most of the revenue.. who needs the owners and their league.. I am sure the guys playing for "And 1" is making a killing.. smh

If you have such disdain for the players why do you even watch the games? The players are the league and just cuz you two are jealous that they get paid well doesn't change that. It's already been PROVEN that the players would get paid more in a free market. Perhaps you two missed the huge contracts that OWNERS paid to the top players in this league in the past!

KG once made 28 mil, Shaq 29 mil and Jordan 33 mil. Salaries would no doubt be even higher now if they didn't put a cap on the max contract a player could sign. The players agreed to this so it's not like they haven't given the owners help in managing their own money. Just look at what the players agreed to in terms of give backs to the owners in last CBA:

A. Length of Contracts

The maximum length of a player contract has been decreased from 7 years for Bird players and 6 years for other players to 6 years for Bird players and 5 years for other players.

B. Annual Increases and Decreases

The permissible year-to-year increases in multi-year player contracts are as follows:
# Bird and Early Bird Contracts may increase by up to 10.5% of year-one salary (down from 12.5%).
# Other contracts may increase by up to 8% of year-one salary (down from 10%).

D. Maximum Player Salaries

As under the prior CBA, in the first year of a new contract a player may receive the greater of 105% of the player’s prior salary, or:
# 0-6 years of service: 25% of Salary Cap ($12 million this year).
# 7-9 years of service: 30% of Salary Cap ($14.4 million this year).
# 10 or more years of service: 35% of Salary Cap ($16.8 million this year).
# The maximum player salaries will continue to be based on a 48.04% of BRI Salary Cap (not on the new, higher Salary Cap).
http://Read more: http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-collective-bargaining-agreement.shtml#ixzz1ZwzubZSO

So the players are yet again willing to give more money back to the owners. In what way have the players been wrong in regard to the leagues finances over the years. They're the ones who have conceded to give up what they already had.

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:Let's step back a second. The problem is completely OWNER related. They have been the ones paying too much for mediocre talent. I'd point out that top players used to make MUCH more money in the previous CBA. Now the top players money has come down and the middle class players are making more. The Owners still do dumb things like pay Joe Johnson way too much. No matter what system you impose the dumb owners will make mistakes, which is all these changes over the years have been about. They're trying to make a foolproof system... for the owners!!!

The poor poor players operating in a "rigged system" that pays mediocre talent and no talent (ECurry) too much. Those stupid OWNERS!!! How dare they overpay for PLAYERS!!! Didn't they know that PLAYERS would just love to give back money if they
1) underperform
2) are injured and don't perform
3) just don't perform at all

Those poor PLAYERS, mental giants that they are, who are only playing in those arenas in that stupid, mismanaged NBA because otherwise they'd all be captains of industry or Prime Ministers of their own countries! Why, if it wasn't for these stupid OWNERS and all their stupid MONEY, I bet these PLAYERS would be running and organizing their own league, just like they did back in the 1920's and '30's in other sports, purely out of love for the game! Why, in no time at all, without all this NBA MISMANAGEMENT, and OWNER FINANCIAL STUPIDITY, simply brilliant people like LeHoe and Wade would be building the league of leagues! Why I'm sure Nike and Adidas and Coca Cola would just be lining up to pay PLAYERS huge sums of money when they end up playing in open college gyms and playgrounds with live streams to YouTube! (That of course, somebody else would have to open for them and ref for them and keep score for them and run the cam for them and...)

LOL.. exactly.. but wait.. this is just a hobby for these owners.. I mean they should feel fine with losing millions, because the players feel they deserve to take most of the revenue.. who needs the owners and their league.. I am sure the guys playing for "And 1" is making a killing.. smh

If you have such disdain for the players why do you even watch the games? The players are the league and just cuz you two are jealous that they get paid well doesn't change that. It's already been PROVEN that the players would get paid more in a free market. Perhaps you two missed the huge contracts that OWNERS paid to the top players in this league in the past!

KG once made 28 mil, Shaq 29 mil and Jordan 33 mil. Salaries would no doubt be even higher now if they didn't put a cap on the max contract a player could sign. The players agreed to this so it's not like they haven't given the owners help in managing their own money. Just look at what the players agreed to in terms of give backs to the owners in last CBA:

A. Length of Contracts

The maximum length of a player contract has been decreased from 7 years for Bird players and 6 years for other players to 6 years for Bird players and 5 years for other players.

B. Annual Increases and Decreases

The permissible year-to-year increases in multi-year player contracts are as follows:
# Bird and Early Bird Contracts may increase by up to 10.5% of year-one salary (down from 12.5%).
# Other contracts may increase by up to 8% of year-one salary (down from 10%).

D. Maximum Player Salaries

As under the prior CBA, in the first year of a new contract a player may receive the greater of 105% of the player’s prior salary, or:
# 0-6 years of service: 25% of Salary Cap ($12 million this year).
# 7-9 years of service: 30% of Salary Cap ($14.4 million this year).
# 10 or more years of service: 35% of Salary Cap ($16.8 million this year).
# The maximum player salaries will continue to be based on a 48.04% of BRI Salary Cap (not on the new, higher Salary Cap).
http://Read more: http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-collective-bargaining-agreement.shtml#ixzz1ZwzubZSO

So the players are yet again willing to give more money back to the owners. In what way have the players been wrong in regard to the leagues finances over the years. They're the ones who have conceded to give up what they already had.

I watch the game because I enjoy the game of basketball.. really I could care less about 90% of the bafoons that play in the NBA.... this current group of NBA punks can just rot... there are a select few I really care about watching...

TKF who pissed in your oatmeal??? What's with all the anger towards the players? In my post I listed the many concessions the players made in the last CBA and I could go back to the 1999 CBA too, but that's overkill. Now they're also giving ground again in this CBA negotiation. So how can you bash the players when over and over again they've been the ones to give money back to the owners? What are your grounds for having this attitude towards the one side of this business that has repeatedly given up more and more of the revenues in this business?

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:Let's step back a second. The problem is completely OWNER related. They have been the ones paying too much for mediocre talent. I'd point out that top players used to make MUCH more money in the previous CBA. Now the top players money has come down and the middle class players are making more. The Owners still do dumb things like pay Joe Johnson way too much. No matter what system you impose the dumb owners will make mistakes, which is all these changes over the years have been about. They're trying to make a foolproof system... for the owners!!!

The poor poor players operating in a "rigged system" that pays mediocre talent and no talent (ECurry) too much. Those stupid OWNERS!!! How dare they overpay for PLAYERS!!! Didn't they know that PLAYERS would just love to give back money if they
1) underperform
2) are injured and don't perform
3) just don't perform at all

Those poor PLAYERS, mental giants that they are, who are only playing in those arenas in that stupid, mismanaged NBA because otherwise they'd all be captains of industry or Prime Ministers of their own countries! Why, if it wasn't for these stupid OWNERS and all their stupid MONEY, I bet these PLAYERS would be running and organizing their own league, just like they did back in the 1920's and '30's in other sports, purely out of love for the game! Why, in no time at all, without all this NBA MISMANAGEMENT, and OWNER FINANCIAL STUPIDITY, simply brilliant people like LeHoe and Wade would be building the league of leagues! Why I'm sure Nike and Adidas and Coca Cola would just be lining up to pay PLAYERS huge sums of money when they end up playing in open college gyms and playgrounds with live streams to YouTube! (That of course, somebody else would have to open for them and ref for them and keep score for them and run the cam for them and...)

LOL.. exactly.. but wait.. this is just a hobby for these owners.. I mean they should feel fine with losing millions, because the players feel they deserve to take most of the revenue.. who needs the owners and their league.. I am sure the guys playing for "And 1" is making a killing.. smh

If you have such disdain for the players why do you even watch the games? The players are the league and just cuz you two are jealous that they get paid well doesn't change that. It's already been PROVEN that the players would get paid more in a free market. Perhaps you two missed the huge contracts that OWNERS paid to the top players in this league in the past!

KG once made 28 mil, Shaq 29 mil and Jordan 33 mil. Salaries would no doubt be even higher now if they didn't put a cap on the max contract a player could sign. The players agreed to this so it's not like they haven't given the owners help in managing their own money. Just look at what the players agreed to in terms of give backs to the owners in last CBA:

A. Length of Contracts

The maximum length of a player contract has been decreased from 7 years for Bird players and 6 years for other players to 6 years for Bird players and 5 years for other players.

B. Annual Increases and Decreases

The permissible year-to-year increases in multi-year player contracts are as follows:
# Bird and Early Bird Contracts may increase by up to 10.5% of year-one salary (down from 12.5%).
# Other contracts may increase by up to 8% of year-one salary (down from 10%).

D. Maximum Player Salaries

As under the prior CBA, in the first year of a new contract a player may receive the greater of 105% of the player’s prior salary, or:
# 0-6 years of service: 25% of Salary Cap ($12 million this year).
# 7-9 years of service: 30% of Salary Cap ($14.4 million this year).
# 10 or more years of service: 35% of Salary Cap ($16.8 million this year).
# The maximum player salaries will continue to be based on a 48.04% of BRI Salary Cap (not on the new, higher Salary Cap).
http://Read more: http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-collective-bargaining-agreement.shtml#ixzz1ZwzubZSO

So the players are yet again willing to give more money back to the owners. In what way have the players been wrong in regard to the leagues finances over the years. They're the ones who have conceded to give up what they already had.

I watch the game because I enjoy the game of basketball.. really I could care less about 90% of the bafoons that play in the NBA.... this current group of NBA punks can just rot... there are a select few I really care about watching...

TKF who pissed in your oatmeal??? What's with all the anger towards the players? In my post I listed the many concessions the players made in the last CBA and I could go back to the 1999 CBA too, but that's overkill. Now they're also giving ground again in this CBA negotiation. So how can you bash the players when over and over again they've been the ones to give money back to the owners? What are your grounds for having this attitude towards the one side of this business that has repeatedly given up more and more of the revenues in this business?

Maybe you need to look at average salaries pre and post 1999 then see who is making more and less.

Players did not give up salary, they agreed to a % of revenue.

After 12 years there are higher expenses that maybe 12 years ago was not anticipated. Owners made mistakes for sure but that does not make it ok to compound them. In fact they lived up to the contract but this is why deals expire. Players have CBA rights to go on strike if they perceived to have an inequitable deal.

If something is broken you try to fix it.

look at what dolan is paying to fix up the garden. No player is being asked to up the money but increased revenue will returned from the renovation. If revenue increased, the players will benefit.

Lets not talk so fast about contraction. There are lots of people other than players and owners affected when you remove a franchise from a city. Arena employees are affected, vendors, local business', restaurants, taxi drivers, hotels, the people that work in the hotels, etc etc........15,000 to 20,000 people congregating for 3 hours is an economic event!

Bonn1997 wrote:

Players did not give up salary, they agreed to a % of revenue.

They've also, over the past two decades, agreed to shorter contracts, lower raises after each year, and lower max salaries.

Look at the Knicks roster 4 years ago and you then know what was wrong with the CBA.

And players with big contracts were granfathered!

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:Let's step back a second. The problem is completely OWNER related. They have been the ones paying too much for mediocre talent. I'd point out that top players used to make MUCH more money in the previous CBA. Now the top players money has come down and the middle class players are making more. The Owners still do dumb things like pay Joe Johnson way too much. No matter what system you impose the dumb owners will make mistakes, which is all these changes over the years have been about. They're trying to make a foolproof system... for the owners!!!

The poor poor players operating in a "rigged system" that pays mediocre talent and no talent (ECurry) too much. Those stupid OWNERS!!! How dare they overpay for PLAYERS!!! Didn't they know that PLAYERS would just love to give back money if they
1) underperform
2) are injured and don't perform
3) just don't perform at all

Those poor PLAYERS, mental giants that they are, who are only playing in those arenas in that stupid, mismanaged NBA because otherwise they'd all be captains of industry or Prime Ministers of their own countries! Why, if it wasn't for these stupid OWNERS and all their stupid MONEY, I bet these PLAYERS would be running and organizing their own league, just like they did back in the 1920's and '30's in other sports, purely out of love for the game! Why, in no time at all, without all this NBA MISMANAGEMENT, and OWNER FINANCIAL STUPIDITY, simply brilliant people like LeHoe and Wade would be building the league of leagues! Why I'm sure Nike and Adidas and Coca Cola would just be lining up to pay PLAYERS huge sums of money when they end up playing in open college gyms and playgrounds with live streams to YouTube! (That of course, somebody else would have to open for them and ref for them and keep score for them and run the cam for them and...)

LOL.. exactly.. but wait.. this is just a hobby for these owners.. I mean they should feel fine with losing millions, because the players feel they deserve to take most of the revenue.. who needs the owners and their league.. I am sure the guys playing for "And 1" is making a killing.. smh

If you have such disdain for the players why do you even watch the games? The players are the league and just cuz you two are jealous that they get paid well doesn't change that. It's already been PROVEN that the players would get paid more in a free market. Perhaps you two missed the huge contracts that OWNERS paid to the top players in this league in the past!

KG once made 28 mil, Shaq 29 mil and Jordan 33 mil. Salaries would no doubt be even higher now if they didn't put a cap on the max contract a player could sign. The players agreed to this so it's not like they haven't given the owners help in managing their own money. Just look at what the players agreed to in terms of give backs to the owners in last CBA:

A. Length of Contracts

The maximum length of a player contract has been decreased from 7 years for Bird players and 6 years for other players to 6 years for Bird players and 5 years for other players.

B. Annual Increases and Decreases

The permissible year-to-year increases in multi-year player contracts are as follows:
# Bird and Early Bird Contracts may increase by up to 10.5% of year-one salary (down from 12.5%).
# Other contracts may increase by up to 8% of year-one salary (down from 10%).

D. Maximum Player Salaries

As under the prior CBA, in the first year of a new contract a player may receive the greater of 105% of the player’s prior salary, or:
# 0-6 years of service: 25% of Salary Cap ($12 million this year).
# 7-9 years of service: 30% of Salary Cap ($14.4 million this year).
# 10 or more years of service: 35% of Salary Cap ($16.8 million this year).
# The maximum player salaries will continue to be based on a 48.04% of BRI Salary Cap (not on the new, higher Salary Cap).
http://Read more: http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-collective-bargaining-agreement.shtml#ixzz1ZwzubZSO

So the players are yet again willing to give more money back to the owners. In what way have the players been wrong in regard to the leagues finances over the years. They're the ones who have conceded to give up what they already had.

I watch the game because I enjoy the game of basketball.. really I could care less about 90% of the bafoons that play in the NBA.... this current group of NBA punks can just rot... there are a select few I really care about watching...

TKF who pissed in your oatmeal??? What's with all the anger towards the players? In my post I listed the many concessions the players made in the last CBA and I could go back to the 1999 CBA too, but that's overkill. Now they're also giving ground again in this CBA negotiation. So how can you bash the players when over and over again they've been the ones to give money back to the owners? What are your grounds for having this attitude towards the one side of this business that has repeatedly given up more and more of the revenues in this business?

nixluva, how long have you been drinking PLAYER'S piss? Seriously, you list concessions immediately after you list how PLAYERS are OVERPAID. So in your view, giving concessions after being OVERPAID is a true concession.
In your own parlance, take a breath and read what you post.
The NBA is not about PLAYERS. Professional Tennis is about PLAYERS. The NBA is about TEAMS. PLAYERS play on TEAMS. TEAMS have fans. Some fans may follow PLAYERS around the league like deranged groupies, but for the most part, fans are fans of TEAMS. Right from Joe Average up through Spike Lee.
The NBA is also a BUSINESS. PLAYERS are generally not really good BUSINESSMEN. Try posting some of the PLAYER's tax returns, and you might see what I mean.
Once again, BUSINESSMEN run the BUSINESS of the NBA. PLAYERS get paid to PLAY. If the NBA were really a PLAYERS league, as you say, then WHY AREN'T WE WATCHING BASKETBALL RIGHT NOW?

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Players did not give up salary, they agreed to a % of revenue.

They've also, over the past two decades, agreed to shorter contracts, lower raises after each year, and lower max salaries.

To gain greater freedom and get paid higher by another team!

Look at the Knicks roster 4 years ago and you then know what was wrong with the CBA.

And players with big contracts were granfathered!

If it was all about that freedom, they could have player options put in their 7 year contracts under the older system.

The players union "gave up" those things because it was apparent the system cannot sustain the way things were. Shaq leaving Orlando was a big deal to the owners. "Superfriends Miami" has had a similar effect. A slowdown in the economy also. MIddle class families are making less now then 13 years ago.

The owners being greedy vs players being greedy is not a who is right or who is wrong in my book.

THe players when free agents are free to play anywhere they want either in this country or another. Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head. Its not like milk delivery is on strike and my kids can't get milk. No body needs the NBA. Its a luzury and just entertainment. Strikes and Lock outs do hurt the little guy who makes a living attached to the league and its games.

Don't believe me? Look at the paultry turnout on the Alba tournament! Look at the results, we likely got a final fo two girls that will be nearly the same girl. Olive complextion with brown eyes and brown hair.

Blame that on the owners too?

IM preaching objectivity btw, as someone said so elequently said "I got no dog in this fight". Maybe I am leaning more toward the owners as they are the ones putting up the capital to fund the league.

Like everyone else, I want basketball but really if its not gonna be, I got other things to do with my time.

Like posting here?