nixluva wrote:We know that winning teams will sometimes sell off their picks rather than have another player around that they will never play. I think given the way Mike has worked with young players since being in NY it's really a nonissue. He's played kids and developed them since being here and despite what happened with Hill and AR, overall he has a good record with young players since coming to the Knicks. He's had success with more young players than he hasn't.

He had to play them...

We had no 2 guard and we didn't have and still don't have a backup point guard.

Had Kelenna's knee not disintegrated we probably don't see Fields

Boston thought so highly of Rondo they pushed their chips to the table in letting him lead alphas. They didn't go find a vet to lead the Big 3 and replace him. They also put Big Baby in the mix, held on to their pick this summer and drafted Avery Bradley. They didn't spin these assets off into cash. And in trading Perk for Green(a younger player) they also acquired another pick for next year's draft.

y2zipper wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Ok, there are 2 sides of this arguement. Side one says that Knicks minus Billups and minus Amare = the suck and therefore its totally expected to lose the series to the Celts(being the only team swept is not relevan't really). I completely agree, because it is a bulletproof arguement and its true. The 2nd side to this arguement is that game 2,for whatever reason(take your pick of MDA being amazing, Celtics being vulnerable, Melo being the man, all of the above thats not really relevant either) it was our game to take. Game one was taken away by the refs and the alley hoop to Garnet, game 2 we just had to make that little huge play that separates the teams that lose games from the teams that win games. We were the former. And here is the salt of this side of the arguement. The reason why we couldn't make that little huge play in game 2 in very relevant. Please take your pick out of the following: A. Jeffries is a scrub. Fair, but he should not have had the chance to be responsible for that play. Which brings us to why: B. Melo is a scrub, he should not have passed it to JJ and just take the shot. Also fair, given how he was having the playoff game of his career. But he was covered by 2 or even 3 guys and in BB thats a bad shot. So him passing it off should have led to a pretty play to finish off the Celts, except that it didn't. Why? Well, let me bring up the 3rd, and my favorite reason as to why. C. MDA. Was there a solid play drawn up to be run during the most important possession of the last 7 years? Were the correct players in the game at the time when D was irrelevant and we just needed a score? Aren't those the things that a coach is responsible for? No, NO and apparently NO. I don't understand why MDA gets a pass just because we had injuries, there are still things that are expected from a coach no matter what.

Carmelo gets a pass because he made the right basketball play. He was double-teamed and he passed to an open guy about five feet from the basket. It's not his fault that Jared Jeffries gets paid to be an NBA big man but can't finish from that spot. Jared Jeffries is a joke. Hell I could have a shot from right there.

As far as the D'Antoni argument goes, it's easy to say that Jared Jeffries shouldn't be in the game and you're right, but him even being there goes back to the injuries, doesn't it? If the Knicks were completely healthy, I don't think Jared Jeffries would be in the game at that point and neither should anybody else. If the healthy lineup of Chauncey, Melo, Amare, Turiaf and Douglas/Fields is in there it probably turns out differently.

As far as having a play drawn up, I don't know how that possession could have gone any better. He gave the ball to Melo and said "make a play," which Melo did. You can't really ask for anything easier than your center basically having a dunk, and it's not Mike D's fault that Jeffries is so offensively inept that he's too scared to put the ball in the hoop.

Jeffries is a scrub, and that's why the play went the way it went. D'Antoni's job is to put the ball in the hands of his best player at the end of the game, which he did, and it's Melo's job to make the best basketball play, which he did also. At the end of the day, you need better players than Jared Jeffries and everybody knows that.

It is MDA's fault because he put Jeffries in the game. He is also that one that demanded that Walsh pickup Jeffries rather than sign Earl Barron. I bet you Earl Barron would have made that layup, but since MDA decided that we did not need any centers on our team who could actual score, we are stuck with Jeffries in the game.

MDA needs to go IMO.

TheGame wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Ok, there are 2 sides of this arguement. Side one says that Knicks minus Billups and minus Amare = the suck and therefore its totally expected to lose the series to the Celts(being the only team swept is not relevan't really). I completely agree, because it is a bulletproof arguement and its true. The 2nd side to this arguement is that game 2,for whatever reason(take your pick of MDA being amazing, Celtics being vulnerable, Melo being the man, all of the above thats not really relevant either) it was our game to take. Game one was taken away by the refs and the alley hoop to Garnet, game 2 we just had to make that little huge play that separates the teams that lose games from the teams that win games. We were the former. And here is the salt of this side of the arguement. The reason why we couldn't make that little huge play in game 2 in very relevant. Please take your pick out of the following: A. Jeffries is a scrub. Fair, but he should not have had the chance to be responsible for that play. Which brings us to why: B. Melo is a scrub, he should not have passed it to JJ and just take the shot. Also fair, given how he was having the playoff game of his career. But he was covered by 2 or even 3 guys and in BB thats a bad shot. So him passing it off should have led to a pretty play to finish off the Celts, except that it didn't. Why? Well, let me bring up the 3rd, and my favorite reason as to why. C. MDA. Was there a solid play drawn up to be run during the most important possession of the last 7 years? Were the correct players in the game at the time when D was irrelevant and we just needed a score? Aren't those the things that a coach is responsible for? No, NO and apparently NO. I don't understand why MDA gets a pass just because we had injuries, there are still things that are expected from a coach no matter what.

Carmelo gets a pass because he made the right basketball play. He was double-teamed and he passed to an open guy about five feet from the basket. It's not his fault that Jared Jeffries gets paid to be an NBA big man but can't finish from that spot. Jared Jeffries is a joke. Hell I could have a shot from right there.

As far as the D'Antoni argument goes, it's easy to say that Jared Jeffries shouldn't be in the game and you're right, but him even being there goes back to the injuries, doesn't it? If the Knicks were completely healthy, I don't think Jared Jeffries would be in the game at that point and neither should anybody else. If the healthy lineup of Chauncey, Melo, Amare, Turiaf and Douglas/Fields is in there it probably turns out differently.

As far as having a play drawn up, I don't know how that possession could have gone any better. He gave the ball to Melo and said "make a play," which Melo did. You can't really ask for anything easier than your center basically having a dunk, and it's not Mike D's fault that Jeffries is so offensively inept that he's too scared to put the ball in the hoop.

Jeffries is a scrub, and that's why the play went the way it went. D'Antoni's job is to put the ball in the hands of his best player at the end of the game, which he did, and it's Melo's job to make the best basketball play, which he did also. At the end of the day, you need better players than Jared Jeffries and everybody knows that.

It is MDA's fault because he put Jeffries in the game. He is also that one that demanded that Walsh pickup Jeffries rather than sign Earl Barron. I bet you Earl Barron would have made that layup, but since MDA decided that we did not need any centers on our team who could actual score, we are stuck with Jeffries in the game.

MDA needs to go IMO.

Where did you hear that Mike is the reason we didn't get Barron? I don't recall any explanation on why they didn't resign Barron. It's easy to 2nd guess any coach when they lose. Jared had been playing well and was part of the reason we had a chance to win. Do you as a coach just ignore that and not reward the player when he's having his best game of the year? You guys are really too much in assuming that you can only look at things one way. If Jared Pump fakes and then goes up and actually scores, is fouled or if he actually was able to get the pass off to Walker none of you would be able to say a thing about what Mike drew up.

nixluva wrote:

TheGame wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Ok, there are 2 sides of this arguement. Side one says that Knicks minus Billups and minus Amare = the suck and therefore its totally expected to lose the series to the Celts(being the only team swept is not relevan't really). I completely agree, because it is a bulletproof arguement and its true. The 2nd side to this arguement is that game 2,for whatever reason(take your pick of MDA being amazing, Celtics being vulnerable, Melo being the man, all of the above thats not really relevant either) it was our game to take. Game one was taken away by the refs and the alley hoop to Garnet, game 2 we just had to make that little huge play that separates the teams that lose games from the teams that win games. We were the former. And here is the salt of this side of the arguement. The reason why we couldn't make that little huge play in game 2 in very relevant. Please take your pick out of the following: A. Jeffries is a scrub. Fair, but he should not have had the chance to be responsible for that play. Which brings us to why: B. Melo is a scrub, he should not have passed it to JJ and just take the shot. Also fair, given how he was having the playoff game of his career. But he was covered by 2 or even 3 guys and in BB thats a bad shot. So him passing it off should have led to a pretty play to finish off the Celts, except that it didn't. Why? Well, let me bring up the 3rd, and my favorite reason as to why. C. MDA. Was there a solid play drawn up to be run during the most important possession of the last 7 years? Were the correct players in the game at the time when D was irrelevant and we just needed a score? Aren't those the things that a coach is responsible for? No, NO and apparently NO. I don't understand why MDA gets a pass just because we had injuries, there are still things that are expected from a coach no matter what.

Carmelo gets a pass because he made the right basketball play. He was double-teamed and he passed to an open guy about five feet from the basket. It's not his fault that Jared Jeffries gets paid to be an NBA big man but can't finish from that spot. Jared Jeffries is a joke. Hell I could have a shot from right there.

As far as the D'Antoni argument goes, it's easy to say that Jared Jeffries shouldn't be in the game and you're right, but him even being there goes back to the injuries, doesn't it? If the Knicks were completely healthy, I don't think Jared Jeffries would be in the game at that point and neither should anybody else. If the healthy lineup of Chauncey, Melo, Amare, Turiaf and Douglas/Fields is in there it probably turns out differently.

As far as having a play drawn up, I don't know how that possession could have gone any better. He gave the ball to Melo and said "make a play," which Melo did. You can't really ask for anything easier than your center basically having a dunk, and it's not Mike D's fault that Jeffries is so offensively inept that he's too scared to put the ball in the hoop.

Jeffries is a scrub, and that's why the play went the way it went. D'Antoni's job is to put the ball in the hands of his best player at the end of the game, which he did, and it's Melo's job to make the best basketball play, which he did also. At the end of the day, you need better players than Jared Jeffries and everybody knows that.

It is MDA's fault because he put Jeffries in the game. He is also that one that demanded that Walsh pickup Jeffries rather than sign Earl Barron. I bet you Earl Barron would have made that layup, but since MDA decided that we did not need any centers on our team who could actual score, we are stuck with Jeffries in the game.

MDA needs to go IMO.

Where did you hear that Mike is the reason we didn't get Barron? I don't recall any explanation on why they didn't resign Barron. It's easy to 2nd guess any coach when they lose. Jared had been playing well and was part of the reason we had a chance to win. Do you as a coach just ignore that and not reward the player when he's having his best game of the year? You guys are really too much in assuming that you can only look at things one way. If Jared Pump fakes and then goes up and actually scores, is fouled or if he actually was able to get the pass off to Walker none of you would be able to say a thing about what Mike drew up.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:The player that mouthed off about plays is just not used to how Mike does things. His style is so different and it depends on the players to be able to make the right BB decision. With so little practice time it's impossible for new guys to absorb all of the concepts. The thing is that when his players spen enough time in the system and it becomes 2nd nature the results are usually very positive. Usually player perform at a higher level.

This entire argument is crazy given all the change this team has had. This is detrimental to any team trying to build chemistry. There will be more change but hopefully that will slow down and we can have some continuity for a change. I expect this team to be a top 4 team next year. Makes no sense to change the coach. Let's see how things are with a full camp and hopefully some upgrades.

I think this is a pretty accurate description of D'Antoni's style. I also think it verifies what the player said after the game.

A fair amount of his style rests upon letting players make on-the-fly decisions themselves. One of the funniest scenes in the actual ":07 Seconds or Less" book, by Jack McCallum, occurs when the Orlando Magic leave behind a scouting report about the Phoenix Suns, whom D'Antoni was coaching at the time. Describing the offense it says: "Literally nothing is frowned upon."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=110502/preview/katie-baker-on-the-new-york-knicks

ramtour420 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TheGame wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Ok, there are 2 sides of this arguement. Side one says that Knicks minus Billups and minus Amare = the suck and therefore its totally expected to lose the series to the Celts(being the only team swept is not relevan't really). I completely agree, because it is a bulletproof arguement and its true. The 2nd side to this arguement is that game 2,for whatever reason(take your pick of MDA being amazing, Celtics being vulnerable, Melo being the man, all of the above thats not really relevant either) it was our game to take. Game one was taken away by the refs and the alley hoop to Garnet, game 2 we just had to make that little huge play that separates the teams that lose games from the teams that win games. We were the former. And here is the salt of this side of the arguement. The reason why we couldn't make that little huge play in game 2 in very relevant. Please take your pick out of the following: A. Jeffries is a scrub. Fair, but he should not have had the chance to be responsible for that play. Which brings us to why: B. Melo is a scrub, he should not have passed it to JJ and just take the shot. Also fair, given how he was having the playoff game of his career. But he was covered by 2 or even 3 guys and in BB thats a bad shot. So him passing it off should have led to a pretty play to finish off the Celts, except that it didn't. Why? Well, let me bring up the 3rd, and my favorite reason as to why. C. MDA. Was there a solid play drawn up to be run during the most important possession of the last 7 years? Were the correct players in the game at the time when D was irrelevant and we just needed a score? Aren't those the things that a coach is responsible for? No, NO and apparently NO. I don't understand why MDA gets a pass just because we had injuries, there are still things that are expected from a coach no matter what.

Carmelo gets a pass because he made the right basketball play. He was double-teamed and he passed to an open guy about five feet from the basket. It's not his fault that Jared Jeffries gets paid to be an NBA big man but can't finish from that spot. Jared Jeffries is a joke. Hell I could have a shot from right there.

As far as the D'Antoni argument goes, it's easy to say that Jared Jeffries shouldn't be in the game and you're right, but him even being there goes back to the injuries, doesn't it? If the Knicks were completely healthy, I don't think Jared Jeffries would be in the game at that point and neither should anybody else. If the healthy lineup of Chauncey, Melo, Amare, Turiaf and Douglas/Fields is in there it probably turns out differently.

As far as having a play drawn up, I don't know how that possession could have gone any better. He gave the ball to Melo and said "make a play," which Melo did. You can't really ask for anything easier than your center basically having a dunk, and it's not Mike D's fault that Jeffries is so offensively inept that he's too scared to put the ball in the hoop.

Jeffries is a scrub, and that's why the play went the way it went. D'Antoni's job is to put the ball in the hands of his best player at the end of the game, which he did, and it's Melo's job to make the best basketball play, which he did also. At the end of the day, you need better players than Jared Jeffries and everybody knows that.

It is MDA's fault because he put Jeffries in the game. He is also that one that demanded that Walsh pickup Jeffries rather than sign Earl Barron. I bet you Earl Barron would have made that layup, but since MDA decided that we did not need any centers on our team who could actual score, we are stuck with Jeffries in the game.

MDA needs to go IMO.

Where did you hear that Mike is the reason we didn't get Barron? I don't recall any explanation on why they didn't resign Barron. It's easy to 2nd guess any coach when they lose. Jared had been playing well and was part of the reason we had a chance to win. Do you as a coach just ignore that and not reward the player when he's having his best game of the year? You guys are really too much in assuming that you can only look at things one way. If Jared Pump fakes and then goes up and actually scores, is fouled or if he actually was able to get the pass off to Walker none of you would be able to say a thing about what Mike drew up.

Wonderful point. Yes, as a coach you take advantage of that, you go to that player, If that player is Carmelo Anthony you draw up your most successful play you put everything you believe in on the line, as a coach. What does MDA do? Leave Jeffries in to receive the ball in ANY play? So , let me get this straight. The main one, that continues into another play and then if players stick with it it continues to another play. Now I confused miself, because I am easily comfused, But, Did Jeffries receive the ball on the play or was there no play called? If it is on the play, I would like to SMH. Did he forget to take him out? I am just grasping at straws over here, trying to explain to myself how JJ got the ball. Why was the one man likely to fumble the ball in there? On offense JJ has many ways to do that. This is something that coaches notice and take advantage of, or at least try not to have it working agaist your team.

CrushAlot wrote:I think these teams are great examples that shoot down the argument that a team can't change their coach because there isn't anyone out there that could do better. Except for Doug Collins all of these new coaches are first year guys and all have been very impressive. I think the Knicks need to move on from D'Antoni. There obviously were some very good coaches working as assistants last year that were ready to make the jump to head coach.

And of those teams, how many had continuity by keeping the basic same group together. That is something Mike never had. Sixers....basically the exact same group, Bulls added Booz but not much else, etc., etc.

Just isn't fair to Coach to compare his performance to coaches that had guys they were familiar with. When Collins or Thibs turns over half the roster in less than a year while, maintaining their winning ways then maybe I'd give this credence