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Stephen A. Smith Article: There is no defense for D'Antoni
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knickstorrents
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Hong Kong
4/27/2011  12:03 PM
Bippity10 wrote:
Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

The other thing they have in common - volume scorers who played little to no defense...

Rose is not the answer.
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nykshaknbake
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4/27/2011  12:06 PM
fishmike wrote:
Uptown wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Anji wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

No way you take a players best statical years and say he is comparable to another player, he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.

Would you take somebody comparing D rose to Marbury because the numbers are similar and there both socrers??? Phuck out of here with that, any bulls fan would jump down your throat nomatter how you spiced it up.

Vince never lived to being a franchise player even at his best and Gilbert was a flash in the pan compared to Melo's career at the ripe old age of 26.

when Rose has been in the league for 8 years and has a 16-34 playoff record that discussion will hold water then wont it?

he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.
wrong again. You think Wash and Tor fans thought Vince and Arenas were going to flash out during those years? No... they thought those guys were the next super stars of the NBA and they had the #s and wins to back that up

Its not a dig on Melo. Its a dig on you. Its funny how you can talk about Melo's future greatness but discard the fact that the Knicks had the 4th youngest team in the NBA before the trade and a ton of cap space to sign a star this summer. The same standards dont apply do they?

I will ask again. What has Melo earned? What have you seen from Melo that clearly separates him from Arenas, TMac and Vince Carter?

And why do think I hate Melo? I dont. I have only hated one player ever on all the sports teams I have followed in Knicks/Yanks/Giants and thats Marbury, and I rooted HARD for that guy when he got here, just like I rooted hard for Curry to get his fat ass together, just like I rooted for Melo to stick his boot in the Celtic's combined cornholes.

The difference between me and you is I havent convinced myself Melo is something he isnt. What you see is what you get dude.

Nearly half of his 34 playoff losses (16) are to the Spurs and Lakers. Only twice did the Nugs have homcourt advantage in the playoffs since he joined the Nuggs. One of those times they advanced to the western conference finals. Only once were the Nugs a favorite to win a series and lost and that was last year when they lost to the Jazz. Every other playoff seires thay lost they were the underdogs and weren't supposed to win.

excuses. At least least I know now your a Melo apologist. When MDA didnt win titles with the Suns it was because he didnt teach defense, his system is a gimmick, etc (coach's fault). When Melo cant get so much as TWO wins in a 7 game series its because he played the Spurs and Lakers too much. Good to know!

Melo has been in 8 postseason and in 50 games has shot less then 42%. In HALF of his post seasons he's shot WELL BELOW 40%

.328, .333, 364 and .375 are his shooting %s in 4 of the 8 years he's been in the playoffs. Was that too much Lakers and Spurs also?

At the start of this series people here thought ESPN saying the Pierce/Melo matchup was even and people here treated it like blasphemy. How did that turn out?

At one point do you say this guy does not match up well again NBA elite or he's NOT a good player in the playoffs? Its been 8 years.... do we wait for 10 years? 15? But I'm a hater for comparing Melo to guys who have been stars in this league like TMac, Vince Carter and Arenas.

ALL YOU GUYS who want the coach fired because you cant win with this style in the playoffs like to totally ignore Melo's consistently poor playoff performances.

Why isnt Mike DAntoni entitled to the same excuses Carmelo gets?

You of all people commenting on this. Why doesn't Melo get every excuse Mda does from you? It's fair to compare Melo to zero or vinsanity in their primes. But you're a big hypocrite talking about excuses.

Your friend,
Rush
knickstorrents
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4/27/2011  12:06 PM
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:Only guy out there who could do a better job than MDA that I can think of off the top of my head is Rick Adelman. What he did with the Rockets when T-Mac and Yao were out was pretty crazy.

Don't discount the Rockets front office. Heavy users of Synergy video analysis and statistical analysis to find great, undervalued players (carl landry, aaron brooks, chase budinger, chuck hayes, kyle lowry, luis scola). These players were all under the radar and are all on reasonable contracts.

Rose is not the answer.
Nalod
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4/27/2011  12:12 PM

So much written, so much debate.

What happened and whose fault is it????????

Injury happend.

In playoffs when it happens: Shit happens!

In New York: Panic over reactions happens!
Bippity10
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4/27/2011  12:34 PM
Anji wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

You and I engaged in a brief convo in one of the htreads recently, and you commented that one of my responses was not related to the topic. You were 100% right. Thats was the purpose of my response in this thread. Fish has made dozens of posts comparing Melo to Arenas and Vince and I've commented in those appropriate threads. But why bring that up again here, when the topic is about defending MDA? I just feel like this thread was hijacked and lost focus after that. We finally got some insight into MDA'a huddle from an actual player and had the ability to have a good discussion about it but, of course the topic was interrupted.

I think it is relevant. Again, everytime we lose we blame the coach in NY. We now have 2 of the top 10 players on one team. Sooner or later, Melo and Amare have to start sharing the blame with the coach. Time is coming that we stop taking shots at the coach and start putting some accountability on the players. If they have excuses for why they didn't win, then doesn't the coach have those same excuses?


I'm not built to be arguing on the boards these days, but Bippity your wrong about players either being winning or being in Vince and Agent 0 class. My answer to that would be Kevin Garnett post 2009. There are times when great players play for bad franchises, and Melo to me is one of those players just like the big ticket and you would be out of your picking mind if you wanted to say that Brand or SARs was in KG's class because he couldn't bring the Twolves out of the first round and they had a season or two at KG's level.

The coach will always be the most visible part of a franchise for the simple fact he controls the players. Melo isn't in charge of 12 other guys, he isn't in charge of making game time adjustments or playing time. That will always be the reality of being a coach, no matter how unfair you think it is. And the vote of no confidence that MDA gets is not because of results, but his decisions and management of this team.

There will be a day to judge Melo and Stat, but it isn't after a season fro one and 30 games for the other. But this coach in small samples has shown enough to me for people to feel if they want to take him or leave him after three seasons.


You may not want to admit it but you can tell good or bad coaching in small samples. That's the difference. It's not excuses, it's projections.


Maybe Melo is like KG. Maybe you are right. When he wins we can start making that legitimate comparison. Until the winning comes, that comparison is unfair to KG. Reality is you don't get credit for what might happen. I'm reading the same thing you are regarding Fish's posting. I'm not seeing hatred from Fish. I'm seeing a wait and see attitude. Which I think is fair.

My own personal opinion? Never a Carmelo fan until I saw him play the last 15 or so games. At that point I began to warm up. I feel good about the possibilities. But whatever the sample size is, he still has to win games to completely win me and the critics over. Until then, the critics will always be there and you will always be defending him.

As for the coach, we consistently give our players built in excuses. With LB we said it was okay for the players to quit because he was mean to them. So they did. We fired him, and then had to watch the players give piss poor effort for the next couple years as well. Now it's completely acceptable for a starting PG in the playoffs to surrender uncontested layup after uncontested layup because his coach doesn't "teach defense". Next year, no more excuses. NO more, "it's coaches fualt" No more "we don't have stars". Just get it done.

I've been on record as saying I wish we could fire the coach and hire Red Auerbach so we could focus on which players were getting it done and which werent. The excuses are maddening.

I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
Posts: 13999
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4/27/2011  12:36 PM
nykshaknbake wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Uptown wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Anji wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

No way you take a players best statical years and say he is comparable to another player, he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.

Would you take somebody comparing D rose to Marbury because the numbers are similar and there both socrers??? Phuck out of here with that, any bulls fan would jump down your throat nomatter how you spiced it up.

Vince never lived to being a franchise player even at his best and Gilbert was a flash in the pan compared to Melo's career at the ripe old age of 26.

when Rose has been in the league for 8 years and has a 16-34 playoff record that discussion will hold water then wont it?

he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.
wrong again. You think Wash and Tor fans thought Vince and Arenas were going to flash out during those years? No... they thought those guys were the next super stars of the NBA and they had the #s and wins to back that up

Its not a dig on Melo. Its a dig on you. Its funny how you can talk about Melo's future greatness but discard the fact that the Knicks had the 4th youngest team in the NBA before the trade and a ton of cap space to sign a star this summer. The same standards dont apply do they?

I will ask again. What has Melo earned? What have you seen from Melo that clearly separates him from Arenas, TMac and Vince Carter?

And why do think I hate Melo? I dont. I have only hated one player ever on all the sports teams I have followed in Knicks/Yanks/Giants and thats Marbury, and I rooted HARD for that guy when he got here, just like I rooted hard for Curry to get his fat ass together, just like I rooted for Melo to stick his boot in the Celtic's combined cornholes.

The difference between me and you is I havent convinced myself Melo is something he isnt. What you see is what you get dude.

Nearly half of his 34 playoff losses (16) are to the Spurs and Lakers. Only twice did the Nugs have homcourt advantage in the playoffs since he joined the Nuggs. One of those times they advanced to the western conference finals. Only once were the Nugs a favorite to win a series and lost and that was last year when they lost to the Jazz. Every other playoff seires thay lost they were the underdogs and weren't supposed to win.

excuses. At least least I know now your a Melo apologist. When MDA didnt win titles with the Suns it was because he didnt teach defense, his system is a gimmick, etc (coach's fault). When Melo cant get so much as TWO wins in a 7 game series its because he played the Spurs and Lakers too much. Good to know!

Melo has been in 8 postseason and in 50 games has shot less then 42%. In HALF of his post seasons he's shot WELL BELOW 40%

.328, .333, 364 and .375 are his shooting %s in 4 of the 8 years he's been in the playoffs. Was that too much Lakers and Spurs also?

At the start of this series people here thought ESPN saying the Pierce/Melo matchup was even and people here treated it like blasphemy. How did that turn out?

At one point do you say this guy does not match up well again NBA elite or he's NOT a good player in the playoffs? Its been 8 years.... do we wait for 10 years? 15? But I'm a hater for comparing Melo to guys who have been stars in this league like TMac, Vince Carter and Arenas.

ALL YOU GUYS who want the coach fired because you cant win with this style in the playoffs like to totally ignore Melo's consistently poor playoff performances.

Why isnt Mike DAntoni entitled to the same excuses Carmelo gets?

You of all people commenting on this. Why doesn't Melo get every excuse Mda does from you? It's fair to compare Melo to zero or vinsanity in their primes. But you're a big hypocrite talking about excuses.

Your friend,
Rush

Last I heard no one is trying to run Carmelo out of town and/or blaming him for the Boston sweep. Not sure of the comparison. Melo has pretty much gotten a deserved pass for this year.

I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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4/27/2011  12:38 PM
nykshaknbake wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Uptown wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Anji wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

No way you take a players best statical years and say he is comparable to another player, he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.

Would you take somebody comparing D rose to Marbury because the numbers are similar and there both socrers??? Phuck out of here with that, any bulls fan would jump down your throat nomatter how you spiced it up.

Vince never lived to being a franchise player even at his best and Gilbert was a flash in the pan compared to Melo's career at the ripe old age of 26.

when Rose has been in the league for 8 years and has a 16-34 playoff record that discussion will hold water then wont it?

he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.
wrong again. You think Wash and Tor fans thought Vince and Arenas were going to flash out during those years? No... they thought those guys were the next super stars of the NBA and they had the #s and wins to back that up

Its not a dig on Melo. Its a dig on you. Its funny how you can talk about Melo's future greatness but discard the fact that the Knicks had the 4th youngest team in the NBA before the trade and a ton of cap space to sign a star this summer. The same standards dont apply do they?

I will ask again. What has Melo earned? What have you seen from Melo that clearly separates him from Arenas, TMac and Vince Carter?

And why do think I hate Melo? I dont. I have only hated one player ever on all the sports teams I have followed in Knicks/Yanks/Giants and thats Marbury, and I rooted HARD for that guy when he got here, just like I rooted hard for Curry to get his fat ass together, just like I rooted for Melo to stick his boot in the Celtic's combined cornholes.

The difference between me and you is I havent convinced myself Melo is something he isnt. What you see is what you get dude.

Nearly half of his 34 playoff losses (16) are to the Spurs and Lakers. Only twice did the Nugs have homcourt advantage in the playoffs since he joined the Nuggs. One of those times they advanced to the western conference finals. Only once were the Nugs a favorite to win a series and lost and that was last year when they lost to the Jazz. Every other playoff seires thay lost they were the underdogs and weren't supposed to win.

excuses. At least least I know now your a Melo apologist. When MDA didnt win titles with the Suns it was because he didnt teach defense, his system is a gimmick, etc (coach's fault). When Melo cant get so much as TWO wins in a 7 game series its because he played the Spurs and Lakers too much. Good to know!

Melo has been in 8 postseason and in 50 games has shot less then 42%. In HALF of his post seasons he's shot WELL BELOW 40%

.328, .333, 364 and .375 are his shooting %s in 4 of the 8 years he's been in the playoffs. Was that too much Lakers and Spurs also?

At the start of this series people here thought ESPN saying the Pierce/Melo matchup was even and people here treated it like blasphemy. How did that turn out?

At one point do you say this guy does not match up well again NBA elite or he's NOT a good player in the playoffs? Its been 8 years.... do we wait for 10 years? 15? But I'm a hater for comparing Melo to guys who have been stars in this league like TMac, Vince Carter and Arenas.

ALL YOU GUYS who want the coach fired because you cant win with this style in the playoffs like to totally ignore Melo's consistently poor playoff performances.

Why isnt Mike DAntoni entitled to the same excuses Carmelo gets?

You of all people commenting on this. Why doesn't Melo get every excuse Mda does from you? It's fair to compare Melo to zero or vinsanity in their primes. But you're a big hypocrite talking about excuses.

Your friend,
Rush

Last I heard no one is trying to run Carmelo out of town and/or blaming him for the Boston sweep. Not sure of the comparison. Melo has pretty much gotten a deserved pass for this year.

I just hope that people will like me
fishmike
Posts: 53828
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Member: #298
USA
4/27/2011  12:43 PM
nykshaknbake wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Uptown wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Anji wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

No way you take a players best statical years and say he is comparable to another player, he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.

Would you take somebody comparing D rose to Marbury because the numbers are similar and there both socrers??? Phuck out of here with that, any bulls fan would jump down your throat nomatter how you spiced it up.

Vince never lived to being a franchise player even at his best and Gilbert was a flash in the pan compared to Melo's career at the ripe old age of 26.

when Rose has been in the league for 8 years and has a 16-34 playoff record that discussion will hold water then wont it?

he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.
wrong again. You think Wash and Tor fans thought Vince and Arenas were going to flash out during those years? No... they thought those guys were the next super stars of the NBA and they had the #s and wins to back that up

Its not a dig on Melo. Its a dig on you. Its funny how you can talk about Melo's future greatness but discard the fact that the Knicks had the 4th youngest team in the NBA before the trade and a ton of cap space to sign a star this summer. The same standards dont apply do they?

I will ask again. What has Melo earned? What have you seen from Melo that clearly separates him from Arenas, TMac and Vince Carter?

And why do think I hate Melo? I dont. I have only hated one player ever on all the sports teams I have followed in Knicks/Yanks/Giants and thats Marbury, and I rooted HARD for that guy when he got here, just like I rooted hard for Curry to get his fat ass together, just like I rooted for Melo to stick his boot in the Celtic's combined cornholes.

The difference between me and you is I havent convinced myself Melo is something he isnt. What you see is what you get dude.

Nearly half of his 34 playoff losses (16) are to the Spurs and Lakers. Only twice did the Nugs have homcourt advantage in the playoffs since he joined the Nuggs. One of those times they advanced to the western conference finals. Only once were the Nugs a favorite to win a series and lost and that was last year when they lost to the Jazz. Every other playoff seires thay lost they were the underdogs and weren't supposed to win.

excuses. At least least I know now your a Melo apologist. When MDA didnt win titles with the Suns it was because he didnt teach defense, his system is a gimmick, etc (coach's fault). When Melo cant get so much as TWO wins in a 7 game series its because he played the Spurs and Lakers too much. Good to know!

Melo has been in 8 postseason and in 50 games has shot less then 42%. In HALF of his post seasons he's shot WELL BELOW 40%

.328, .333, 364 and .375 are his shooting %s in 4 of the 8 years he's been in the playoffs. Was that too much Lakers and Spurs also?

At the start of this series people here thought ESPN saying the Pierce/Melo matchup was even and people here treated it like blasphemy. How did that turn out?

At one point do you say this guy does not match up well again NBA elite or he's NOT a good player in the playoffs? Its been 8 years.... do we wait for 10 years? 15? But I'm a hater for comparing Melo to guys who have been stars in this league like TMac, Vince Carter and Arenas.

ALL YOU GUYS who want the coach fired because you cant win with this style in the playoffs like to totally ignore Melo's consistently poor playoff performances.

Why isnt Mike DAntoni entitled to the same excuses Carmelo gets?

You of all people commenting on this. Why doesn't Melo get every excuse Mda does from you? It's fair to compare Melo to zero or vinsanity in their primes. But you're a big hypocrite talking about excuses.

Your friend,
Rush

fair question. I dont make excuses for either. All I have said here is MDA doesnt deserve to be fired, and Rick Adelman being a big upgrade is a joke. Have I said MDA should be extended? NO. Do I think MDA could be the right coach for Melo and Amare? I think he can be, but that remains to be seen.

I think MDA is a good coach and has shown that in the NBA. I think he's done some impressive things. MDA is not a great coach, because he's never done anything great, or won anything great.

I have and will always argue that accountability starts with the players. Thats my personal philosophy and it has very little to with any affection I have for MDA. I also defended Don Chaney who did a good job the year McDyess got hurt. I defended Wilkins also pointing out the huge flaws in the roster. I even defended Larry Brown, athough he totally sucked here and brought nothing but a power struggle to an already phucked up franchise.

Lets be clear: I dont make excuses for MDA or any coach. I just think their value is overrated. Our best player (Melo) shoots what in game one? 5-18? 4 rebounds? Yet people say MDA got outcoached and thats why we lost. Its idiotic to me. I hear things like we lost because he didnt play Anthony Carter more. That would be like some Pacer fan in the 90s saying the only reason the Knicks beat the Pacers was because Larry Brown didnt play Haywood Workman enough. Its idiotic. Boston hit more shots, had better chemistry, more depth, more talent and more EFFORT.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
Posts: 53828
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Member: #298
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4/27/2011  12:52 PM
Anji wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

You and I engaged in a brief convo in one of the htreads recently, and you commented that one of my responses was not related to the topic. You were 100% right. Thats was the purpose of my response in this thread. Fish has made dozens of posts comparing Melo to Arenas and Vince and I've commented in those appropriate threads. But why bring that up again here, when the topic is about defending MDA? I just feel like this thread was hijacked and lost focus after that. We finally got some insight into MDA'a huddle from an actual player and had the ability to have a good discussion about it but, of course the topic was interrupted.

I think it is relevant. Again, everytime we lose we blame the coach in NY. We now have 2 of the top 10 players on one team. Sooner or later, Melo and Amare have to start sharing the blame with the coach. Time is coming that we stop taking shots at the coach and start putting some accountability on the players. If they have excuses for why they didn't win, then doesn't the coach have those same excuses?


I'm not built to be arguing on the boards these days, but Bippity your wrong about players either being winning or being in Vince and Agent 0 class. My answer to that would be Kevin Garnett post 2009. There are times when great players play for bad franchises, and Melo to me is one of those players just like the big ticket and you would be out of your picking mind if you wanted to say that Brand or SARs was in KG's class because he couldn't bring the Twolves out of the first round and they had a season or two at KG's level.

The coach will always be the most visible part of a franchise for the simple fact he controls the players. Melo isn't in charge of 12 other guys, he isn't in charge of making game time adjustments or playing time. That will always be the reality of being a coach, no matter how unfair you think it is. And the vote of no confidence that MDA gets is not because of results, but his decisions and management of this team.

There will be a day to judge Melo and Stat, but it isn't after a season fro one and 30 games for the other. But this coach in small samples has shown enough to me for people to feel if they want to take him or leave him after three seasons.


You may not want to admit it but you can tell good or bad coaching in small samples. That's the difference. It's not excuses, it's projections.


And THIS is where your flat out wrong, and everyone else who thinks this trade was a good trade for the Knicks. Because you THINK that Carmelo Anthony is the same caliber player that KG is and he cant sniff his jock. Was Melo ever a first all NBA defensive team? Was Melo ever considered an MVP candidate, much less win one? NO NO NO NO NO NO

4 years ago Kevin Garnett was a top 5 player in the NBA. Melo never has been, and has shown nothing that says he ever will be.

The fact that the Melo trade was a terrible trade from a BB standpoint (great for business) will never affect how I feel about a player. I never blamed Eddy Curry for costing us picks, etc. I always rooted for the guy to turn it around, etc, JUST like I will root for Melo to be a great Knick and lead us to many post season wins, etc

BUT I dont EXPECT or ASSUME players to do things they have never done. The Nuggets have had a very good team for awhile. They were NOT a team of Melo + scrubs. This notion that Melo carried them year after year is simply garbage (what was their record when he left?????).

You guys just refuse to look at reality and actually look at the player's game and his accomplishments and RESULTS.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
knickstorrents
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4/27/2011  1:17 PM
Good to see other posters making sense.
Rose is not the answer.
fishmike
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4/27/2011  1:17 PM
Bippity10 wrote:Last I heard no one is trying to run Carmelo out of town and/or blaming him for the Boston sweep. Not sure of the comparison. Melo has pretty much gotten a deserved pass for this year.
there isnt a single poster here that hates Melo. Hate the trade? sure... nobody hates Melo. The guy can play. At any moment, or any week or any month he can be the best player in the NBA. The guy can do bigtime things. I was chomping at the bit at the thought of being able to give this guy a max contract here this summer. We would have been adding a 26 year old 4x (5?) all star to a young roster loaded with speed size and skill. Didnt happen that way. Life goes on. Now the focus is one how we aquire that 3rd guy + some depth to make this ship sail
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
DrAlphaeus
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4/27/2011  1:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/27/2011  1:31 PM
knickstorrents wrote:
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:Only guy out there who could do a better job than MDA that I can think of off the top of my head is Rick Adelman. What he did with the Rockets when T-Mac and Yao were out was pretty crazy.

Don't discount the Rockets front office. Heavy users of Synergy video analysis and statistical analysis to find great, undervalued players (carl landry, aaron brooks, chase budinger, chuck hayes, kyle lowry, luis scola). These players were all under the radar and are all on reasonable contracts.

This is a great point about the Rockets FO getting bang for their salary buck. I hope the Knicks follow suit and invest in technology/methodology that will help them find suitable players for our many needs, particularly able centers. Chuck Hayes is 6'6" but a pretty good rebounding center/PF from what I can tell. I'd think would use a guy like that.

Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
DrAlphaeus
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4/27/2011  1:34 PM
fishmike wrote:there isnt a single poster here that hates Melo.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. We all are different people, and some of us just hate particular players for whatever reason, and that doesn't exactly disappear from some when they put on a Knicks uniform. Maybe "hate" is a strong word, but I'd imagine there are a poster or two here who really can't find a way to like him yet.

Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
JrZyHuStLa
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4/27/2011  1:42 PM
Getting Mike D'antoni a defensive assistant is a futile move.

It has to start with him. If he doesn't believe in the value of defense, than no assistant will be effective.

Solve the root of the problem Donnie, fire this clown.
umynot
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4/27/2011  2:41 PM
Stephen A's job is to make a story!

We got swept by Maybe best team in East and someone has to be at fault and Stephen is putting it all
on

I can live with that even if I dont agree...... I have not given up on Coach yet.

We had a tiny Glimpse of what this team can be when Healthy.

Playing Boston while hurt was worst thing possible for what our team was going through.

Yet We battled 2 and a half games and came up short !.... Shit happens!!

Our system needs the PG healthy more then anything...... Not having a healthy Billups and injured
TD doomed us not the game plan!

Having half an AMARE killed us!!

Not

If Phil Jackson says i will coach Knicks I say ok fire D'Antoni

But till then I say wait till we get a franchise PG then judge this guy till then we are just building to get where we
wanna go!

KNICKS on the way UP!!!
fishmike
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4/27/2011  2:48 PM
DrAlphaeus wrote:
fishmike wrote:there isnt a single poster here that hates Melo.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. We all are different people, and some of us just hate particular players for whatever reason, and that doesn't exactly disappear from some when they put on a Knicks uniform. Maybe "hate" is a strong word, but I'd imagine there are a poster or two here who really can't find a way to like him yet.

isnt that most players? I mean we all root for our team, but individual love for players is earned isnt it?

Part of the process is watching a player grow with your team, or perhaps overcome certain struggles to excel and have big moments, or erasing past moments.

For me winning games and elevating the play of the team as a whole is what impresses me. I dont care about stats except one. I want guys who are driven to win. I like dirty work players. I like guys who take responsibility. I loved Ewing whom I thought had all those things. When the Knicks lost in the playoffs year after year he took responsibility and never pointed fingers.

I'm waiting for Melo to win me over. Its going to take more from him than it took for Gallo, Chandler, or Douglas because the expectations are different. I dont dislike him at all. He's a hell of a good player and I'm happy we have him. I wouldnt have made that trade because it didnt make sense from a basketball standpoint but he's a Knick now and life goes on.

I will always root for the team. If I cant do that I will stop watching as I did at the end of the Isiah era. I root for Melo. I just dont pretend he's something he's not. I root for MDA also, as he's part of the Knicks. Its irritating when coaches are held responsible for poor player effort or execution. Kind of like when Willie Randoph was held accountable for the Mets collapse. Was he throwing pitches and swinging the bat?

I know its part of sports, but its a stupid part of sports and I will always bark at it. This is the place to do it no?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nixluva
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4/27/2011  3:17 PM
From here on if Walsh can find a way to upgrade PG and C and maybe SG, this team will be a Title contender in the East. Boston was a horrible draw for the Knicks. Even more so without Billups and a hurt Amar'e! What about that is so hard for people to understand? No matter what people think of Mike's defensive coaching he had the team ready to battle the C's in the playoffs. If not for the injuries it's entirely possible they win one or two of those gamses. From what I saw it was partly the schemes and mostly a much more dedicated effort from the players to defend. This shows me that all along the players have not taken the defensive effort as serious as they should. They had more they could give and didn't do it.

Having more players like AC would help. You have to have leaders that are committed to giving max effort. STAT and Melo are the 2 best players and neither is known for giving 110% on D every night. When Melo did raise his effort level it boosted the rest of the team and proved the point. In the end it's always about the players, cuz a coach can't MAKE a player do anything. A coach can give a player the blueprint and guidance, but once they're on the floor it's all on the players.
Uptown
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4/27/2011  3:25 PM
fishmike wrote:
Uptown wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Anji wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:
Uptown wrote:So how did this thread go from trying to defend MDA to dumping on Melo and calling him Vince Carter again? Dont understand why guys feel a need to continously recant their hate for the trade and in every thread.

Why won't anyone answer Fish's questioin about what is wrong with being compared to vince or Agent 0? Fish isn't comparing him to today's Vince and Agent 0 who are a shadow of there former selves.

He is comparing them to the original Vince. The Vince that put up
27.5pts 6 reb 5 assists
24.5pts 5 reb 4 assists

Or the Gilbert Arenas pre injury that put up
29.3 points and 6 assists
28.4 points and 6 assists

Nothing wrong with that comparison. What do they all have in common? Great numbers. Leader of their teams. Battled hard in the playoffs. Haven't accomplished squat. Hopefully Carmelo doesn't break down like they have, and can actually get it done here. Until then, he still has something to prove and needs to earn the love of the Fishmikes and Bips of the world.

No way you take a players best statical years and say he is comparable to another player, he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.

Would you take somebody comparing D rose to Marbury because the numbers are similar and there both socrers??? Phuck out of here with that, any bulls fan would jump down your throat nomatter how you spiced it up.

Vince never lived to being a franchise player even at his best and Gilbert was a flash in the pan compared to Melo's career at the ripe old age of 26.

when Rose has been in the league for 8 years and has a 16-34 playoff record that discussion will hold water then wont it?

he clearly means it as a dig picking guys who are coulda woulda shoulda been great players.
wrong again. You think Wash and Tor fans thought Vince and Arenas were going to flash out during those years? No... they thought those guys were the next super stars of the NBA and they had the #s and wins to back that up

Its not a dig on Melo. Its a dig on you. Its funny how you can talk about Melo's future greatness but discard the fact that the Knicks had the 4th youngest team in the NBA before the trade and a ton of cap space to sign a star this summer. The same standards dont apply do they?

I will ask again. What has Melo earned? What have you seen from Melo that clearly separates him from Arenas, TMac and Vince Carter?

And why do think I hate Melo? I dont. I have only hated one player ever on all the sports teams I have followed in Knicks/Yanks/Giants and thats Marbury, and I rooted HARD for that guy when he got here, just like I rooted hard for Curry to get his fat ass together, just like I rooted for Melo to stick his boot in the Celtic's combined cornholes.

The difference between me and you is I havent convinced myself Melo is something he isnt. What you see is what you get dude.

Nearly half of his 34 playoff losses (16) are to the Spurs and Lakers. Only twice did the Nugs have homcourt advantage in the playoffs since he joined the Nuggs. One of those times they advanced to the western conference finals. Only once were the Nugs a favorite to win a series and lost and that was last year when they lost to the Jazz. Every other playoff seires thay lost they were the underdogs and weren't supposed to win.

excuses. At least least I know now your a Melo apologist. When MDA didnt win titles with the Suns it was because he didnt teach defense, his system is a gimmick, etc (coach's fault). When Melo cant get so much as TWO wins in a 7 game series its because he played the Spurs and Lakers too much. Good to know!

Melo has been in 8 postseason and in 50 games has shot less then 42%. In HALF of his post seasons he's shot WELL BELOW 40%

.328, .333, 364 and .375 are his shooting %s in 4 of the 8 years he's been in the playoffs. Was that too much Lakers and Spurs also?

At the start of this series people here thought ESPN saying the Pierce/Melo matchup was even and people here treated it like blasphemy. How did that turn out?

At one point do you say this guy does not match up well again NBA elite or he's NOT a good player in the playoffs? Its been 8 years.... do we wait for 10 years? 15? But I'm a hater for comparing Melo to guys who have been stars in this league like TMac, Vince Carter and Arenas.

ALL YOU GUYS who want the coach fired because you cant win with this style in the playoffs like to totally ignore Melo's consistently poor playoff performances.

Why isnt Mike DAntoni entitled to the same excuses Carmelo gets?

Since you're passing out black-n-white labels and calling me a Melo apologist for merely pointing out facts about his playoff past, why do you reject when someone calls you a Melo hater when most if not all of your post concerning Melo is negatives about is game or backhanded compluments? It goes both ways Fish.

Are you really trying to say that MDA doesn't have a ton of excuses made for him on this board? So you're going to act like there wasn't numerous threads on this board where the MDA apologists excuse him for losing to the Spurs because of the Horry play on Nash when Amare got suspended. Or the times the he couldn't advance his Suns teams to the finals because he lost to the Spurs (the same Spurs teams that beat Melo twice but thats not an excuse, right?) Or how about the threads that excuse MDA for losing in Denver? Or how everyone here giving him a free-pass over the last three years here? You can't be serious with the 'Why isn't MDA getting the same excuses as Melo'.
fishmike
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4/27/2011  4:05 PM
why do you reject when someone calls you a Melo hater when most if not all of your post concerning Melo is negatives about is game or backhanded compluments?
Tell me one negative thing I have said about Melo. I can only think of one... I called him a diva, and that after he ducked media and blamed the coach and teammates when the losses were mounting early on.

On the rest of your post...

easy fella. You missed my sarcasm about being a Melo apologist, but your comments that follow are spot on. Its stupid isnt it? Your points about the MDA stuff is a 100% correct. Being labeled a hater or an apologist is idiotic. I agree 100% with everything in your post. Its just not where I was coming from.

To me Melo and MDA are in exactly the same boat. Both have accomplished some things in the NBA. MDA has yet to prove his system or his style of play can win a title right? Just like Melo has yet to prove he's more than a #s player.

My point is the most adamant Melo supporters seem to really attack MDA, when ironically BOTH have exactly the same knocks.
MDA doesnt coach defense. Melo doesnt play it.
MDA's system cant win a title. Melo's play can win a playoff series
MDA inflates numbers with this system. Melo volume shooter and a #s player.

Some of the parallels are quite interesting here arent they?

As for Melo's playoff losses coming against the Spurs and Lakers... Melo has played 50 playoff games and shoots 41% for his career. A considerable dropoff. Also in 4 of Melo's 8 post seasons he has shot 33%, 33%, 36% and 38%. Thats terrible. Thats not an attack. Its an observation. Like Amare needs to rebound better, its weak. Do I hate Amare now? Or am I just recognizing a weakness in his game?

I'm not crying because MDA is treated unfairly here in general. I'm calling out guys who think we lost because of MDA when our star player shot 37% and our other star player's back was so phucked up dude couldnt tie his own shoes. Whats up with that?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
DJMUSIC
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4/27/2011  4:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/27/2011  4:52 PM

I agree with some that D'Antoni should at least get his 1 more year to improve the Knicks fortunes to step up to elite Eastern
conference teams.

However in case things don't work out for D'Antoni whom I dont have no love for this is my candidate choice
possibility for next new Knick Coach a most "Interesting" fella whom can get the job done ! as Patrick Ewing once said.

*LOL
I am serious as hell ! and he's most interesting which perhaps never fails

Bet he is a Knick Fan
Dos Equis

Turntable Musiclover & Mix-Master-ologist
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