CashMoney wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

fishmike wrote:great... I was blaming Melo all along, but its really VMart, jzhustla, PMS and Anubis I should blame!

Its funny. You say things like what are in this article and your a hater. Cant tell you how many times I said the same stuff... that Melo is good but not a superstar, but you cant have that discussion around here. People here have been blinded and sold and bought in on what this guy is. He's a really good scorer and not much else. He's a piece, and a complimentary piece, not a build around piece.

He's Vince Carter or Gilbert Arenas or Tracy McGrady... he's an all star, because everyone loves a guy who scores 25 a game and can beat his man.

No one here has compared Melo to Kobe or Lebron, at least I haven't. You're just shoving words into people's mouths. You want to call him a complimentary piece to a superstar, that's fine? I'll take that. But with the way things are going lately, Amar'e is the complimentary piece and Melo is the superstar. He's a really good scorer, AND an above average rebounder for a SF, you seem to constantly underrate him for that as well. He has that second aspect of his game that Vince, Gilbert, and McGrady never had. I think Melo is exactly the kind of player that falls IN BETWEEN the Kobe and Vince tiers.

Now let's fire D'antoni please.

he averages 1 more rebound a game than Vince did and Vince was a guard. Thats the extra aspect? Melo has big rebounding games but there is nothing elite about that part of his game.

You just admit Melo is a 2nd tier guy. I thought the arguement was stars win titles and role players dont. Are we changing that arguement to stars AND 2nd tier players win titles now?

The Kobe Lebron stuff isnt me sticking words in your mouth. The guys who loved this trade sold it as bringing a star here, the kind of star that you could build a championship around. So who's won titles? Shaq, Kobe, KG, Duncan, Wade... but you just said Melo isnt in that group. I agree. He's not. Melo is a very exciting player and he is a bigtime scorer, not the same caliber as those guys.

you put those words in your own mouth. Is a 2nd tier player worth trading 4 rotation guys, a pick, a prospect and using all your cap space for? Not in my opinion. Thats all I have ever tried to say here, but the pro-trade guys like yourself have never listened to that. Instead you hear:

I hate Melo because I say he's not a superstar
Gallo and Mosgov are better then Melo, etc

I never said those things. I dont think anyone has. Maybe blobman but do we really count that?

Anyway its nice to see Melo have a couple big games, but you talk to Den fans or watch his career and these nights are never the problem. The problem is the daily commitment to the team game, which he has never shown. Nobody here is anti Melo. They were anti trade. Melo's game has too many holes to justify trading a good young roster for.

Melo will be a different player here. The tier 1, tier 2 argument will cease and desist once it's all said and done.

Because this is where Melo really wants to be he's going to change? Where's that coming from?

Doesnt matter... we need to just take what we get from Melo and improve the other areas

TheGame wrote:Until we know who else Walsh can get over the next 2 years, we really cannot evaluate this trade. Melo is clearly a better player than anyone we have up. So the only question is can we acquire good enough role players to make this team a contender. If we can get some quality bench players, the trade will look really good in another year or two.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Killa4luv wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Nonetheless, he has never finished in the top 10 in the league in player efficiency rating. Not once. In 2009-10 he posted a career high in PER, and it placed him 13th, right in front of former Knicks immortal David Lee.

2 things, David Lee's PER is useless as a tool to evaluate him. He can hit an open shot from 12-15 automatically, and is a very good rebounder. Bad man on man and help defender. He is Kurt Thomas with hops.

Right now, Derrick Rose who the whole world thinks is the runaway candidate for MVP is 14th in the league in PER.

All of you who voted D.Rose as MVP but think Hollinger's analysis of Melo is accurate, do you care to explain?

Hollinger is in love with PER cause he invented it. But when you have players Kevin Love as #1, and D. ROse as 14, not 13 like Melo used to be, u should know something is a little wrong.

Your reasoning suggests that Lee's PER overstates his value but does not support the claim that the PER is useless. Regarding your second question, everyone here (and actually even Hollinger!) has suggested using PER ratings in addition to considering factors not measured by the PER system (which generally don't do Melo any favors but may help Rose).

No, reality suggests that PER does overstate his value because I've seen David Lee play and I understand the game of basketball. I don't know anyone who disagrees with that. Do you? He is not that good of a player, hes a solid role player. preferably off of the bench on a team with solid bigs like, Miami, Orlando, or LA.

I didn't say its useless. I said it was useless as a tool to evaluate David Lee. I stand by that. And the fact that D lee managed to make the top 15 and Derrick Rose is not in the top 10 but everyone thinks hes guaranteed to be the MVP, is something I'd like to hear people reconcile.

Killa4luv wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Killa4luv wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Nonetheless, he has never finished in the top 10 in the league in player efficiency rating. Not once. In 2009-10 he posted a career high in PER, and it placed him 13th, right in front of former Knicks immortal David Lee.

2 things, David Lee's PER is useless as a tool to evaluate him. He can hit an open shot from 12-15 automatically, and is a very good rebounder. Bad man on man and help defender. He is Kurt Thomas with hops.

Right now, Derrick Rose who the whole world thinks is the runaway candidate for MVP is 14th in the league in PER.

All of you who voted D.Rose as MVP but think Hollinger's analysis of Melo is accurate, do you care to explain?

Hollinger is in love with PER cause he invented it. But when you have players Kevin Love as #1, and D. ROse as 14, not 13 like Melo used to be, u should know something is a little wrong.

Your reasoning suggests that Lee's PER overstates his value but does not support the claim that the PER is useless. Regarding your second question, everyone here (and actually even Hollinger!) has suggested using PER ratings in addition to considering factors not measured by the PER system (which generally don't do Melo any favors but may help Rose).

No, reality suggests that PER does overstate his value because I've seen David Lee play and I understand the game of basketball. I don't know anyone who disagrees with that. Do you? He is not that good of a player, hes a solid role player. preferably off of the bench on a team with solid bigs like, Miami, Orlando, or LA.

I didn't say its useless. I said it was useless as a tool to evaluate David Lee. I stand by that. And the fact that D lee managed to make the top 15 and Derrick Rose is not in the top 10 but everyone thinks hes guaranteed to be the MVP, is something I'd like to hear people reconcile.

Killa, you do realize that you are talking about Rose the MVP and his PER for 2010-2011 and comparing that to David Lee PER for 2009-2010?

Apples and oranges?

Not that it tilts the argument, but it's just not the same.

AnubisADL wrote:I dont take ESPN opinion pieces serious because ESPN is the ULTIMATE bandwagoner.

Judging by the logic and the facts (or lack thereof in the article)to me would make more sense than a blanket statement that you don't take ESPN pieces serious. Hollinger put time and research into this piece. If you disagree with it that's cool but putting some substance behind it would help show people the light no?

JrZyHuStLa wrote:No one here has compared Melo to Kobe or Lebron, at least I haven't. You're just shoving words into people's mouths. You want to call him a complimentary piece to a superstar, that's fine? I'll take that. But with the way things are going lately, Amar'e is the complimentary piece and Melo is the superstar. He's a really good scorer, AND an above average rebounder for a SF, you seem to constantly underrate him for that as well. He has that second aspect of his game that Vince, Gilbert, and McGrady never had. I think Melo is exactly the kind of player that falls IN BETWEEN the Kobe and Vince tiers.

Now let's fire D'antoni please.

1. Dude..everyone understand you think MDA should be fired for failing to motivate his players to play hard. We understand that.

2. A debate on whether Melo is a 'superstar' like Player X is a superstar is kind of pointless. Everyone has a different standard for who qualifies as one. Mine is someone who is at least considered the best player at his position on BOTH ends of the court. I think Melo has a shot at being a 1st tier guy.

CashMoney wrote:
I would laugh at that but it's I'm not saying Melo is going to be a lock down defender. I think he's more than capable of playing good defense. I know his career up to this point says otherwise but I hope the last two games is an indication of things to come. We all now that being a star player in New York can be brutal. Melo may take things to heart hear when he reads and hears that he can't or won't defend. I truly believe that Melo is heading toward a new level.

I loved Melo's interview after the game. He said the Knicks were sluggish in the 1st half and weren't playing hard on D. He said he went out to start thr 3rd with D in mind and that if he set the example he hoped his mates would follow. There's no reason he can't do this every game but I hope and believe he will.

The difference between DLee and Melo is I don't think DLee has the tools to ever be a lockdown defender no matter how hard he tries. Maybe he can be like Nick Collison and make a diff by taking tons of charges.

Melo I think has all the tools to just hound people on D. If he's put into a situation like Shane Battier in Houston where coaches give him info on where guys like to shoot and he commits to forcing them into low percentage shots I see no reason why he can't be a great defender. Why not?
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It's way too early to tell whether the trade was a good one or not. I wasn't exactly thrilled about giving up THAT much for Melo and think DWill would have been a better fit here with Amare.

However I'm an optimist. And the optimistic side is this:

Melo is a great fit for NY. NY fans are pretty knowledgeable and they are definitely passionate. They will not put up with losing games to inferior teams with a franchise player failing to give it his all on both ends of the court. Melo knows this or will know this soon when the Knicks get booed off the court. Dude has a lot of pride. He wants to be great. He was critized by many, including myself, for having a rep as an indifferent defender. Worse, most of his critics believe he has all the physical tools to be a lock down defender and that's what caused them to come down so hard on him.

It's only been a few games here and the guy I saw in Orlando and against the Nets may not have the most sound principles (ex: playing super aggressive and close to a guy who is 3 feet beyond the arc) but it at least looks like he understands the importance of D and gives a crap.

He's been critized as being a ball stopper. I'm seeing him make quicker decisions with the ball and develop chemistry early with Turiaf when he was healthy and playing and he's had some good looks with Amare.

The last 10 years + have made me sick of just throwing crap at a wall in terms of players being shuffled in and out and the endless coaching carousel and rotation changes.

I don't give a damn if we go down with the ship at this point. Let's give this current core the next few seasons to see what happens. I want DW back. I want MDA to stay. Find the pieces to make Amare + Melo + MDA fit. Of all those pieces if something is not working, obviously MDA is the most expendable but I'm not in love with the idea of changing the system yet again and forcing our guys to learn yet another way of doing things.

And yeah I'm pretty sure we're going to lose in the first round but I hope it's more of a Bulls-Celtics 7 game epic series that is a sign of good things to come than a Atlanta playoff series that shows there's a ceiling that can't be broken.

CashMoney wrote:I would laugh at that but it's I'm not saying Melo is going to be a lock down defender. I think he's more than capable of playing good defense. I know his career up to this point says otherwise but I hope the last two games is an indication of things to come. We all now that being a star player in New York can be brutal. Melo may take things to heart hear when he reads and hears that he can't or won't defend. I truly believe that Melo is heading toward a new level.

I loved Melo's interview after the game. He said the Knicks were sluggish in the 1st half and weren't playing hard on D. He said he went out to start thr 3rd with D in mind and that if he set the example he hoped his mates would follow. There's no reason he can't do this every game but I hope and believe he will.

You see why I kill you guys for blaming the coach? This guy is a star player in the NBA making $20mm and going to all star games. Yet people here actually blame the coach when the effort is poor.

I will be interesting to see what type of players Walsh (if he's here) adds this offseason. If he focuses on drafting guys or signing older veteran FA types.

Killa4luv wrote:1. D. Lee doesn't belong that high in any year, if were are going to really value PER. And for those who think he does, and his PER is valuable, how do they account for the 'concensus' MVP Derrick Rose not even cracking the top 10?

Is it the PER is off, or was David Lee really that good last year and Derrick Rose is really not the MVP.

PER is a weird stat. And I do think it favors certain categories like rebounding. Don't think it takes into account team wins and such, so there is not direct comparison as to what Rose is doing for CHI and what Lee did on a losing Knicks team (although I could be wrong that that factor is not taken into consideration).

David averaged: 20PPG, 12RPG, 3.5APG, 1SPG, .5BPG.
Rose averages: 25PPG, 4RPG, 8APG, 1SPG, .5BPG.

You can see how perhaps the PER would equate out but has zero reflection on general team output.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Killa4luv wrote:

martin wrote:

Killa4luv wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Killa4luv wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
Nonetheless, he has never finished in the top 10 in the league in player efficiency rating. Not once. In 2009-10 he posted a career high in PER, and it placed him 13th, right in front of former Knicks immortal David Lee.

2 things, David Lee's PER is useless as a tool to evaluate him. He can hit an open shot from 12-15 automatically, and is a very good rebounder. Bad man on man and help defender. He is Kurt Thomas with hops.

Right now, Derrick Rose who the whole world thinks is the runaway candidate for MVP is 14th in the league in PER.

All of you who voted D.Rose as MVP but think Hollinger's analysis of Melo is accurate, do you care to explain?

Hollinger is in love with PER cause he invented it. But when you have players Kevin Love as #1, and D. ROse as 14, not 13 like Melo used to be, u should know something is a little wrong.

Your reasoning suggests that Lee's PER overstates his value but does not support the claim that the PER is useless. Regarding your second question, everyone here (and actually even Hollinger!) has suggested using PER ratings in addition to considering factors not measured by the PER system (which generally don't do Melo any favors but may help Rose).

No, reality suggests that PER does overstate his value because I've seen David Lee play and I understand the game of basketball. I don't know anyone who disagrees with that. Do you? He is not that good of a player, hes a solid role player. preferably off of the bench on a team with solid bigs like, Miami, Orlando, or LA.

I didn't say its useless. I said it was useless as a tool to evaluate David Lee. I stand by that. And the fact that D lee managed to make the top 15 and Derrick Rose is not in the top 10 but everyone thinks hes guaranteed to be the MVP, is something I'd like to hear people reconcile.

Killa, you do realize that you are talking about Rose the MVP and his PER for 2010-2011 and comparing that to David Lee PER for 2009-2010?

Apples and oranges?

Not that it tilts the argument, but it's just not the same.

I don't think its apples and oranges.
1. D. Lee doesn't belong that high in any year, if were are going to really value PER. And for those who think he does, and his PER is valuable, how do they account for the 'concensus' MVP Derrick Rose not even cracking the top 10?

Is it the PER is off, or was David Lee really that good last year and Derrick Rose is really not the MVP.

It's neither. It's that you just can't seem to understand that the PER is one small (important but small) piece of evidence to evaluate a player. Also, one thing you have to understand is that the fewer data points you have, the more measurement error there is going to be, and were talking about only *one* data point if you're looking at Lee's PER last year. It would make much more sense to look at players' career PERs.

Also, I would not say Rose is the MVP. If we're just talking about on-the-court productivity, Lebron should get the award every year.

holfresh wrote:I really hope when it's time to man up about this trade, the guys who are most vocal against it, steps up when it's time to step up...I like how Melo gets compared to DLee, Vince Carter, Arenas, and McGrady to prove a point...Where Melo's teams has done nothing but win and he led them there seven consecutive years...Denver was more than willing to put 20 mil per year on the table to keep this guy...Yet we think the pieces that has led us to 30 win seasons were the way to go...Can't Wait!!!

I was against the trade because it gutted our roster for a player that makes us a little bit better offensively, but has the special talent of being able to close out wins in tough games. That's something we (arguably) will need to be a contender. We lost some ball movement as a result, and with Chauncey's slowness and disinterest, we have basically become a no-defense half-court team.

I will certainly admit it if/when we compete for a chip with a team built around Stat and Melo. I can definitely see the forest through the trees in that trade. You're right, it's about the future, not this season or even next. Apparently, the plan is built loosely around the wedding toast (or Dwight, if he'll have us). They want to make The Garden a three amigos arena, and that would have involved letting go of most of our roster. Some might claim it was a blessing that we gave them up now since we only have to move Chauncey (as an expiring contract) and loose change in a trade for a starting PG.

If I could go back to mid-February and make the decision myself, I'd roll the dice and wait for FA. If he went to NJ instead, maybe Utah would have approached us about Deron. Who knows? I am glad we have another all-star on the roster. I'm willing to invest myself in the "three amigos" strategy if we can get it going before Amare gets too creaky. When all's said and done, it may be the only way we were ever going to beat LeDouche's boys or Da Bulls.