Juice wrote:Did he ever smile like this here?

I miss him the most because of everything he's about as a player and teammate

http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_17608544

Jezus it's getting maudlin in here. I haven't felt this teary since Dorothy said goodbye to Scarecrow.

Uptown wrote:My comments have nothing to do with Felton himself, but more about some of the posters here for applauding Amare for not taking a shot at our precious Knuggets but in the same vein, highlighting and silently nodding in agreement to Felton taking shots our new team; a team that some on this board wants no part of.

Ah. Carry on then.

As for me, I liked those now-Nuggets, but I worry about the orange and blue at the end of the day. Even though I'll probably not be able to afford a game for the next 5 years now. Luckily I've been missing these games we've been losing lately.

I think Karl is a good coach, they have a nice deep squad over there, and hell, I always wonder if training a mile high ever gives these guys an extra advantage (although Nugs have yet to get to a Finals). But ultimately: F them.

knickstorrents wrote:

MS wrote:What really makes someone a star player. We had David Lee and Zach Randolph.

Zach Randolph 20pts 13rbs
Amare 26pts 8rbs

So who is the better player. Memphis is 36-31 the Knicks are 34-31

Why can't everyone look at what Denver is doing and ask the simple question. Was it really Carmelo that was driving this team all these years. Or did Nene, Affalo, Lawson, Smith, Birdman, etc have more a part in winning then Melo.

So far Melo has proven to be a sub par defender that commits one game and fades the next. We are a ****ing disgrace on defense. We gave up 144 to the Bucks (91.2), 119/115 to the Cavs (95) and 106 Pacers (99). We were a top 3 team offensively. Why did we need Melo? Where does he make us better?

So now we are capped out for the rest of tim with two guys that don't play defense and take up 46 million in the cap

It's good to see that other posters on this board making sense. We are now handcuffed to two max salary players that play negligible defense, with little flexibility to get better. This is an inherently flawed strategy. But it certainly sells tickets.

If you see the great teams in the league they manage their cap such that they are getting value from almost all their positions, and have great picks through the draft so they can get some undervalued talent.

You need an Edge to win a championship. We have no way to get that extra Edge right now (unless Donnie buys a bunch of second rounds and does exceptionally well). Right now we paid market price for two max players that are not worth the max (not even Amare is worth the max quite frankly, but he is certainly better value than Melo).

There are no shortcuts in this league. See Miami for a great example.

Our 3 "stars" are all defensively challenged, and only Billups has the excuse of age (I've read things about him losing a step on D and not being able to consistently guard the quicker PGs.). Don't overlook the fact that Ty Lawson and Felton, two guards with fresh legs, have replaced Billups. People are looking at the subtraction of Melo from Denver as a positive thing for them on D, but trading Billups was also designed to allow Lawson to get a chance to show if he is the real deal, and having Felton on the team with his reasonable contract ($$ and length) was a perfect fit. Not saying that Lawson is a defensive stud, but he and Felton are a good combination offensively and defensively.

Time will tell which side is right about this trade, but I thought we gave up too much when it happened, and see nothing at this point to change my mind, even though we've had some nice moments from the guys we got from the Nuggets.

tkf wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:If this was really all Donnie, it's a feather out of his cap. He buckled.

good post. I agree

No way this was Donnie. This was a business decision. Not a basketball decision.

knickstorrents wrote:

tkf wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:If this was really all Donnie, it's a feather out of his cap. He buckled.

good post. I agree

No way this was Donnie. This was a business decision. Not a basketball decision.

Basketaball is a business so it was a basketball decision. The question "Does this trade make us better and gets us to point A sooner than later?" The obvious answer is yes or the trade would not have happened. I think the major reason why so many are stuck on this trade is beacause most feel we should have waited to the off season and sign Melo as a FA. The reality is that it was not going to happen. If there was no CBA issue this summer it may have very well gone down that way but when faced with a decision of getting the guy or lose him you get the guy.

Did the Knicks give up talent? Yeah, Wilson, Gallo and Felton can all play and all have bright futures in the league. No one is disputing that fact. However to say this trade was about selling jeresey's and putting butts in the seats is ridiculous. The Knicks are constantly in the top 10 in attendace each and every year. People were buying Gallo and Wilson jerseys and Dolan is not so hard up for cash that he made a trade just so he can make a few extra bucks by selling tickets for an additional hand full of games.

Time will tell how this trade works out for both sides but to have the constant threads after 11 games is insane.

CashMoney wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:

tkf wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:If this was really all Donnie, it's a feather out of his cap. He buckled.

good post. I agree

No way this was Donnie. This was a business decision. Not a basketball decision.

Basketaball is a business so it was a basketball decision. The question "Does this trade make us better and gets us to point A sooner than later?" The obvious answer is yes or the trade would not have happened. I think the major reason why so many are stuck on this trade is beacause most feel we should have waited to the off season and sign Melo as a FA. The reality is that it was not going to happen. If there was no CBA issue this summer it may have very well gone down that way but when faced with a decision of getting the guy or lose him you get the guy.

Did the Knicks give up talent? Yeah, Wilson, Gallo and Felton can all play and all have bright futures in the league. No one is disputing that fact. However to say this trade was about selling jeresey's and putting butts in the seats is ridiculous. The Knicks are constantly in the top 10 in attendace each and every year. People were buying Gallo and Wilson jerseys and Dolan is not so hard up for cash that he made a trade just so he can make a few extra bucks by selling tickets for an additional hand full of games.

Time will tell how this trade works out for both sides but to have the constant threads after 11 games is insane.

I don't think the NBA is all that cut and dried. There are a ton of examples, especially around luxury tax dollars, where you can cite a business decision versus a basketball decision.

There are 2 very good reasons why Dolan would supersede Donnie and his purely basketball sense and sensibility with more of a "business" trade versus a "basketball" trade for Melo: 1) Raising ticket prices 49% (you need more than just Amare on the marque) and 2) Keeping him out of NJ, who may have drawn marketing, ticket and other $'s away from MSG.

We were bombarded by trade stories in the newspapers for a year.

The speculation after the wedding was off the charts. Chris Paul was next.

There was no a day that passed where someone had the next rumor or "nnamed source" with the inside information straight from 2 Penn Plaza. It made headlines.

All that for this:

"In truth, I miss the old Knicks. The young, fast, scrappy, improving club Donnie Walsh built from scratch. They may not have made it to May but would've died trying. I would've loved to have seen if Felton or Gallinari played themselves into All-Star contention in the East next season.

In looking to mimic the Heat, the Knicks PR staff now brings the Big Apple 3 to the interview room for podium interviews after home games. Another symbol of those three players – Melo, Amar'e and Chauncey Billups – being above the rest of the club."

"Maybe the star-powered Knicks, who face the Pacers tonight at Conseco Field House, get us to May and Billups makes like the five-time All-Star he is and Melo and 'Mare become too overpowering offensively for anyone to stop. But I'm just not feeling it right now"

- Marc Berman

martin wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:

tkf wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:If this was really all Donnie, it's a feather out of his cap. He buckled.

good post. I agree

No way this was Donnie. This was a business decision. Not a basketball decision.

Basketaball is a business so it was a basketball decision. The question "Does this trade make us better and gets us to point A sooner than later?" The obvious answer is yes or the trade would not have happened. I think the major reason why so many are stuck on this trade is beacause most feel we should have waited to the off season and sign Melo as a FA. The reality is that it was not going to happen. If there was no CBA issue this summer it may have very well gone down that way but when faced with a decision of getting the guy or lose him you get the guy.

Did the Knicks give up talent? Yeah, Wilson, Gallo and Felton can all play and all have bright futures in the league. No one is disputing that fact. However to say this trade was about selling jeresey's and putting butts in the seats is ridiculous. The Knicks are constantly in the top 10 in attendace each and every year. People were buying Gallo and Wilson jerseys and Dolan is not so hard up for cash that he made a trade just so he can make a few extra bucks by selling tickets for an additional hand full of games.

Time will tell how this trade works out for both sides but to have the constant threads after 11 games is insane.

I don't think the NBA is all that cut and dried. There are a ton of example, especially around luxury tax dollars, where you can cite a business decision versus a basketball decision.

There are 2 very good reasons why Dolan would supersede Donnie and his purely basketball sense and sensibility with more of a "business" trade versus a "basketball" trade for Melo: 1) Raising ticket prices 49% (you need more than just Amare on the marque) and 2) Keeping him out of NJ, would may have drawn marketing, ticket and other $'s away from MSG.

Now back to reality:

Your points are simply undeniable. I dont even have a problem with any of what you mentioned. 1) its true and 2) its the world we live in. If you dont like this aspect of the NBA (or pro sports) follow college, or tennis or golf...

I dont blame the Knicks or Walsh or Dolan. When you look at your points (well done) the bottom line is the Knicks MUST make this trade. That being said its not a good basketball trade. Can the Knicks make this work? Can they build around these two players they have invested so much in? Those are the questions.

This roster will be harder to balance than the previous one. Gallo, Chandler, Felton and Mosgov were not as good, talented, skilled, whatever you want to say as much as Melo is. Melo is the superior talent by far. However the previous group of Knicks had a few things.... size, versatility and quantity. There were a lot of options.

Now if we want to compete for a title realistically we are missing some key pieces:
A defensive presence at center who is an elite rebounder: (examples, healthy Tyson Chandler, OK4, Mutumbo, Ben Wallace, Bynum, Bogut, Knoa, possibly Verajao, etc)
A lockdown defender who can shoot the 3: (examples Bruce Bowen, Raja Bell, etc)

Obviously a deep bench. I could certainly see Douglas, Shawn Williams and Fields being that bench. Those are 3 solid bench players.

Where and with what assets are we getting those 2 key pieces? Who is guarding the post and the wing? Its NOT Amare/Melo. Asking them to be those parts is foolish. We have two elite scorers, lets not turn them into good scorers and mediocre defenders.

Boy we need a LOT

fishmike - we do need a lot. At least four new quality players. Two centers, a forward with a big butt and a guard.

The Atlanta Hawks area perfect analogy. The Hawks have discovered two stars - Joe Johnson and the gifted Al Horford - are not nearly enough. - even with another almost star in Josh Smith. Their individual play is are exposed by teams with cohesion. Their lack of size is exposed by teams who go hard to the rack. They have no personality beyond being a jump shooting team.

This is where we miss Mozgov. Yes, Mozgov. Despite his flaws and yoot he had something valuable. He was an inside presence that forced the other team to think twice about the legit seven footer with his hands up. Amare is NOT an inside presence and the next time he forces his offense inside it will only lead to a turnover or blocked shot against a legit big man. And I love Amare. I love his leadership and bold "the Knicks are back". But we cannot risk him banging against guys who outweigh him by 20 pounds every night.

Over 82 games it will take its toll on his legs. Notice how Amare is wrapped like a mummy from the waist down? Early in the season he did not wear any kneepads. Now, his legs are covered in support hosiery and padding. You do the math.

For me, that is an admission that his knees are barking.

misterearl wrote:The Atlanta Project

fishmike - we do need a lot. At least four new quality players. Two centers, a forward with a big butt and a guard.

The Atlanta Hawks area perfect analogy. The Hawks have discovered two stars - Joe Johnson and the gifted Al Horford - are not nearly enough. - even with another almost star in Josh Smith. Their individual play is are exposed by teams cohesion. Their lack of size is exposed by teams who go hard to the rack. They have no personality beyond being a jump shooting team.

This is where we miss Mozgov. Yes, Mozgov. Despite his flaws and yoot he had something valuable. He was an inside presence that forced the other team to think twice about the legit seven footer with his hands up. Amare is NOT an inside presence and the next time he forces his offense inside it will only lead to a turnover or blocked shot against a legit big man. And I love Amare. I love his leadership and bold "the Knicks are back". But we cannot risk him banging against guys who outweigh him by 20 pounds every night.

Over 82 games it will take its toll on his legs. Notice how Amare is wrapped like a mummy from the waist down? Early in the season he did not wear any kneepads. Now, his legs are covered in support hosiery and padding. You do the math.

For me, that is an admission that his knees are barking.

The Knicks are not the Hawks. Melo is far superior to Joe Johnson not to mention that Joe Johnson is a SG and Melo is a SF. Comparing STAT to Horford? C'mon please. If the Knicks had this team intact to start the year we'd be much better than the Hawks.

Marv wrote:i don’t begrudge guys having gotten attached to our players and wanting to have seen them get a chance to grow together more here.

i liked our team a lot - at times.

but when the scorecard came in and it was time to take a risk in either direction, i saw a bunch of guys who had been extremely inconsistent. Who had managed to not show up with intensity on plenty of nights, bombed away from deep excessively and unsuccessfully many nights, made boneheaded plays, repeatedly got beaten inside and often didn’t rebound. who were racking up numbers and positioning themselves to get paid a la david lee. who had again for the 2nd time this season dropped 6 in a row. who were 2 over .500 at the all-star break.

i don't begrudge them at all contributing to a denver team that's playing well right now.

i'm glad we took the risk we ended up taking. watching us against miami, atlanta, utah, memphis, orlando (till chauncey went down and jameer went nuts) . . . i like the potential of this team. but we gotta get it done. those cleveland, dallas and indiana losses were as disheartening as the stinkers that the team laid many times during the first half of the season. as is our record.

btw i sent this to a buddy in denver. his response:

I can see why you take that view. It is misguided and demented, but
predictable. I see the Knicks problems lie mostly with D'Antoni. He
put the system above the abilities of the players. You knew that early.

Anthony will win you more games than he loses. Chauncey is getting
slower and the two will stifle movement by the rest of the team.

Did you read the SI story about the Nuggets post-trade? I agree with
what it says.