Uptown wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I'm kind of with Fish on this. There's nothing wrong with saying Carmelo is TMac, or Vince etc. Those guys are/were great players and they don't need to apologize to anyone. But it's true, Melo and the crew listed have never won anything. The GREAT ONES have all won. You can't be included in that class until you put your team on your shouldesr and WIN. I agree with Fish, when/if he does this, there is no argument that he is elite. Until then he is another damn good player with something to prove. Same with Amare in my view. This may seem harsh, but I don't think it is. I think it just means they are a class below the very best. Again, no shame in that. You can win a title with guys like that. Just harder to build a team around guys at that level.

But to say he's just an above average player is beyond ridiculous

When you say win, or the great one's have won, are you referring to rings? If so, then thats a whole 'nother debate.

Amare has a good playoff record, but for one reason or another was stopped by a Duncan or a Kobe, etc

I would rate Amare's career a small notch above Melo's for what he's done in the post season.

Funny thing about sports? It only takes one great year, and one great run, fair or unfair. You can tell me all day long (and possibly be right) that Romo and Rivers are better QBs then Eli, but he outplayed Romo, Farve and Brady in b2b2b weeks and on the biggest stage in sports engineered a famous drive capped by a win and SB MVP. Those other guys dont. Who's career would you rather have right now?

This stuff matters fair or not. Playoffs wins and titles are something that can be measured over a body of work and they count for something.

Uptown wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I'm kind of with Fish on this. There's nothing wrong with saying Carmelo is TMac, or Vince etc. Those guys are/were great players and they don't need to apologize to anyone. But it's true, Melo and the crew listed have never won anything. The GREAT ONES have all won. You can't be included in that class until you put your team on your shouldesr and WIN. I agree with Fish, when/if he does this, there is no argument that he is elite. Until then he is another damn good player with something to prove. Same with Amare in my view. This may seem harsh, but I don't think it is. I think it just means they are a class below the very best. Again, no shame in that. You can win a title with guys like that. Just harder to build a team around guys at that level.

But to say he's just an above average player is beyond ridiculous

When you say win, or the great one's have won, are you referring to rings? If so, then thats a whole 'nother debate.

I think "rings" is a little too narrow and cliche. It's a way for fans to say things like "Ewing sucks, he ain't got no rings" and sound very knowledgeable. It ends the discussion, when really it's not that cut and dry. As great as Michael Jordan was, he would not have won rings if he was teamed up with you, me, fishmike and Allanfan. It would not have meant he was any less great. I've played in YMCA leagues where I was far and away the best player in the league but lost because my $%#&!^% $#^&!#@ teammates suck $@$!%! monkey %#!^!!!!!!!! Doesn't make me any less great.

When I say winnning, I'm referring to elevating your team. If your team is bad you make them good. If they are mediocre you make them very good, If they are good, you compete for or win titles. Ewing never won a title but I do consider him one of the elites. His teams were not very good, yet his teams consistently were amongst the top 3 or 4 in the league. Melo wins, but some of the elite would have done more with what he had in Denver. I guess it's difficult to discuss without having a formal definition for each class. Everyone here may be operating on different definitions. Here are mine:

Legendary-multiple titles. Unquestioned leader. Has flaws, but play, leadership and mental makeup makes these flaws invisible.(Michael, Magic, Larry, Russell, Kobe)

Elite-Consistenly Elevate your team to perform above all expectations. May or may not win titles. Consistenly carry your team every night, year after year. Has flaws that sometimes bubble to the surface and prevnet them from beating the Legendary.(Ewing, Barkley, Lebron)

Superstar-Put up great statistics, sometimes raise the level of your team, sometimes not. For the most part, can carry a team. Has flaws that are clearly apparent and can hurt the team. Can be built around(Melo, Amare, Dwight Howard)

Star-Great statistics. Flawed. Great to have on the team, but not to be built around. Flaws can range from issues that really hur the team, to just not having enough talent to be at the next level(Manu Ginobli, Joe Johnson, Kevin Love)

Above average-Can start for most teams. Can perform on most nights. Have great games eveyr now and then. long slumps. some hot streaks. Mostly just helps the team. This category is huge.

These are my own vague definitions. You may see differently. That's basically how I make judgements.

Bippity10 wrote:A true elite talent would have the Knicks up 2-0 or 1-1 right now. Elite talent does not miss opportunities 2 nights in a row. A true elite talent makes all the right decisions down the stretch of every game. For other teams to win they have to beat him. He never beat himself. How many times did you see Tim Duncan or Jordan lose a game with a clutch mistkae in crunch times. How many times did they turn it over, commit an offensive foul, lose their man on defense, lose their cool, forget to foul an opponent with time running out. They may miss a shot, or get beat on defense but they never beat themselves.

As much as I love Amare, he and Carmelo don't make all the right decisions donw the stretch. They can dominate with their ability and win games. But they can also get out thought and out detailed by Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen and Kobe when it really matters. That's the biggest difference in my view. Not shooting percentage, or true shooting percentage or any other nonsense statistic in my view.

no disagreement here. only caveat, i think Amare and Carmelo still control their destinies. the book has not been written yet. there are times in all elite players' careers when they made mistakes; beat themselves. the elite learn and evolve from those moments. the mere greats do not.

eViL wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:A true elite talent would have the Knicks up 2-0 or 1-1 right now. Elite talent does not miss opportunities 2 nights in a row. A true elite talent makes all the right decisions down the stretch of every game. For other teams to win they have to beat him. He never beat himself. How many times did you see Tim Duncan or Jordan lose a game with a clutch mistkae in crunch times. How many times did they turn it over, commit an offensive foul, lose their man on defense, lose their cool, forget to foul an opponent with time running out. They may miss a shot, or get beat on defense but they never beat themselves.

As much as I love Amare, he and Carmelo don't make all the right decisions donw the stretch. They can dominate with their ability and win games. But they can also get out thought and out detailed by Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen and Kobe when it really matters. That's the biggest difference in my view. Not shooting percentage, or true shooting percentage or any other nonsense statistic in my view.

no disagreement here. only caveat, i think Amare and Carmelo still control their destinies. the book has not been written yet. there are times in all elite players' careers when they made mistakes; beat themselves. the elite learn and evolve from those moments. the mere greats do not.

No disagreement here. You can see it in the careers of Jordan, Isiah etc. Sometimes you have to get stomped on, embarrassed, beat and make mistakes before you "figure it out". I think both Carmelo and Amare have the mindset and ability to make the necessary changes but.......the further you go in your career with these bad habits the harder they are to break.

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I'm kind of with Fish on this. There's nothing wrong with saying Carmelo is TMac, or Vince etc. Those guys are/were great players and they don't need to apologize to anyone. But it's true, Melo and the crew listed have never won anything. The GREAT ONES have all won. You can't be included in that class until you put your team on your shouldesr and WIN. I agree with Fish, when/if he does this, there is no argument that he is elite. Until then he is another damn good player with something to prove. Same with Amare in my view. This may seem harsh, but I don't think it is. I think it just means they are a class below the very best. Again, no shame in that. You can win a title with guys like that. Just harder to build a team around guys at that level.

But to say he's just an above average player is beyond ridiculous

When you say win, or the great one's have won, are you referring to rings? If so, then thats a whole 'nother debate.

Not just rings.. WIN. What has Melo won? He's been in the playoffs every year and won 2 series out of like 9 played. You can knock his supporting cast all you want but Ewing had similar problems but the Knicks were in round 2 for ten straight years. When you look at a player's body of work dont you think that matters?

Amare has a good playoff record, but for one reason or another was stopped by a Duncan or a Kobe, etc

I would rate Amare's career a small notch above Melo's for what he's done in the post season.

Funny thing about sports? It only takes one great year, and one great run, fair or unfair. You can tell me all day long (and possibly be right) that Romo and Rivers are better QBs then Eli, but he outplayed Romo, Farve and Brady in b2b2b weeks and on the biggest stage in sports engineered a famous drive capped by a win and SB MVP. Those other guys dont. Who's career would you rather have right now?

This stuff matters fair or not. Playoffs wins and titles are something that can be measured over a body of work and they count for something.

I think both Fish and Bip is off base comparing Carmelo to TMac, Vince and Arenas...Getting to the playoffs 7 consecutive years in the western conference is an achievement in itself...I look at Carmelo this way, If he replaced Kobe in the Lakers lineup when the Lakers won, would the Lakers win as many Championships?..I would say yes...Now, would the Lakers win with TMAC, Vince and Arenas..I would say no...Melo brings more to the table than these stars..It's not always quantified stats...Fish is comparing how far certain players have gone in the playoffs and judging their careers on that...These teams are not on equal footing so it's erroneous to judge based on how far someone got in the playoffs...Carmelo can be the type of player you build your team around...He obviously need other key parts to win it like Kobe did but I don't think you build around TMac, Vince or Arenas...These three have put up nice numbers but never carried their teams in any winning situation consecutively...Having consecutive 50 win seasons in this league means something, having that underbelly of a consistent winning situation for which is was the anchor means something...Comparing him to guys that is known for basically just putting up stats isn't really accurate measurement of who this guy really is..

i think you're very very seriously undervaluing kobe. and overvaluing melo.

EDIT: personally, i have kobe as one of the 6 best guards to have EVER played.

Marv wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I'm kind of with Fish on this. There's nothing wrong with saying Carmelo is TMac, or Vince etc. Those guys are/were great players and they don't need to apologize to anyone. But it's true, Melo and the crew listed have never won anything. The GREAT ONES have all won. You can't be included in that class until you put your team on your shouldesr and WIN. I agree with Fish, when/if he does this, there is no argument that he is elite. Until then he is another damn good player with something to prove. Same with Amare in my view. This may seem harsh, but I don't think it is. I think it just means they are a class below the very best. Again, no shame in that. You can win a title with guys like that. Just harder to build a team around guys at that level.

But to say he's just an above average player is beyond ridiculous

When you say win, or the great one's have won, are you referring to rings? If so, then thats a whole 'nother debate.

Not just rings.. WIN. What has Melo won? He's been in the playoffs every year and won 2 series out of like 9 played. You can knock his supporting cast all you want but Ewing had similar problems but the Knicks were in round 2 for ten straight years. When you look at a player's body of work dont you think that matters?

Amare has a good playoff record, but for one reason or another was stopped by a Duncan or a Kobe, etc

I would rate Amare's career a small notch above Melo's for what he's done in the post season.

Funny thing about sports? It only takes one great year, and one great run, fair or unfair. You can tell me all day long (and possibly be right) that Romo and Rivers are better QBs then Eli, but he outplayed Romo, Farve and Brady in b2b2b weeks and on the biggest stage in sports engineered a famous drive capped by a win and SB MVP. Those other guys dont. Who's career would you rather have right now?

This stuff matters fair or not. Playoffs wins and titles are something that can be measured over a body of work and they count for something.

I think both Fish and Bip is off base comparing Carmelo to TMac, Vince and Arenas...Getting to the playoffs 7 consecutive years in the western conference is an achievement in itself...I look at Carmelo this way, If he replaced Kobe in the Lakers lineup when the Lakers won, would the Lakers win as many Championships?..I would say yes...Now, would the Lakers win with TMAC, Vince and Arenas..I would say no...Melo brings more to the table than these stars..It's not always quantified stats...Fish is comparing how far certain players have gone in the playoffs and judging their careers on that...These teams are not on equal footing so it's erroneous to judge based on how far someone got in the playoffs...Carmelo can be the type of player you build your team around...He obviously need other key parts to win it like Kobe did but I don't think you build around TMac, Vince or Arenas...These three have put up nice numbers but never carried their teams in any winning situation consecutively...Having consecutive 50 win seasons in this league means something, having that underbelly of a consistent winning situation for which is was the anchor means something...Comparing him to guys that is known for basically just putting up stats isn't really accurate measurement of who this guy really is..

i think you're very very seriously undervaluing kobe. and overvaluing melo.

EDIT: personally, i have kobe as one of the 6 best guards to have EVER played.

You could be right on both counts...I think Carmelo is that good...Lakers after Shaq was a touch better than a .500 team with Kobe...They never came close to 50 wins until Gasol got there...Denver was putting up 50 wins consecutively with Melo...But rings mean everything and without it my argument rings hallow...I think Melo has been sleep walking the last two years in Denver...This defense and rebounding is who he can be but wasn't challenged to be this good Denver...I think he has something to prove... True Kobe could be one of the best guards ever, it's just that he needed some serious help to get over the hump and without it, he ran ordinary teams...

Bippity10 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I'm kind of with Fish on this. There's nothing wrong with saying Carmelo is TMac, or Vince etc. Those guys are/were great players and they don't need to apologize to anyone. But it's true, Melo and the crew listed have never won anything. The GREAT ONES have all won. You can't be included in that class until you put your team on your shouldesr and WIN. I agree with Fish, when/if he does this, there is no argument that he is elite. Until then he is another damn good player with something to prove. Same with Amare in my view. This may seem harsh, but I don't think it is. I think it just means they are a class below the very best. Again, no shame in that. You can win a title with guys like that. Just harder to build a team around guys at that level.

But to say he's just an above average player is beyond ridiculous

When you say win, or the great one's have won, are you referring to rings? If so, then thats a whole 'nother debate.

Not just rings.. WIN. What has Melo won? He's been in the playoffs every year and won 2 series out of like 9 played. You can knock his supporting cast all you want but Ewing had similar problems but the Knicks were in round 2 for ten straight years. When you look at a player's body of work dont you think that matters?

Amare has a good playoff record, but for one reason or another was stopped by a Duncan or a Kobe, etc

I would rate Amare's career a small notch above Melo's for what he's done in the post season.

Funny thing about sports? It only takes one great year, and one great run, fair or unfair. You can tell me all day long (and possibly be right) that Romo and Rivers are better QBs then Eli, but he outplayed Romo, Farve and Brady in b2b2b weeks and on the biggest stage in sports engineered a famous drive capped by a win and SB MVP. Those other guys dont. Who's career would you rather have right now?

This stuff matters fair or not. Playoffs wins and titles are something that can be measured over a body of work and they count for something.

I think both Fish and Bip is off base comparing Carmelo to TMac, Vince and Arenas...Getting to the playoffs 7 consecutive years in the western conference is an achievement in itself...I look at Carmelo this way, If he replaced Kobe in the Lakers lineup when the Lakers won, would the Lakers win as many Championships?..I would say yes...Now, would the Lakers win with TMAC, Vince and Arenas..I would say no...Melo brings more to the table than these stars..It's not always quantified stats...Fish is comparing how far certain players have gone in the playoffs and judging their careers on that...These teams are not on equal footing so it's erroneous to judge based on how far someone got in the playoffs...Carmelo can be the type of player you build your team around...He obviously need other key parts to win it like Kobe did but I don't think you build around TMac, Vince or Arenas...These three have put up nice numbers but never carried their teams in any winning situation consecutively...Having consecutive 50 win seasons in this league means something, having that underbelly of a consistent winning situation for which is was the anchor means something...Comparing him to guys that is known for basically just putting up stats isn't really accurate measurement of who this guy really is..

That's a hypothetical situation that can never be proven and doesn't really answer the question. The only thing we can really go by is what they have achieved. In the last two nights I've seen Carmelo forget to foul, and lose a man defensively a couple times in huge situations. This season I've seen him committ at least 4 offensive fouls on final possessions while with us and once while playing against us. These boners in crunch time are what seperate the Kobe's from the Carmelo's

TMI

1.) Jazz up one, Karl Malone has the ball up one with about 20 seconds left with a chance to put his team up 3 and most likely force game 7 at home.
2.) Karl Malone gets the ball in the post in one of the most important moments of his career and after thousands of post ups, one of the best passing most aware big men in the history of the game picks that moment to forget to look for the double team. Picks that moment to have a brain lapse
3.) Michael Jordan, hyper aware notices that Karl did not look for the double team. Hyper elite status aware that he has time to get their before Karl will find the open man. The biggest moment of the season and he picks that moment to make the best possible decision again!!! He rips the ball from Malone
4.) Next play Jordan hits the game winning shot to win the title. He didn't over penetrate and barrell into eight guys. He didn't drive into a double team. he didn't jack up a three pointer. He didn't dribble the ball off his knee. He simply took a couple dribbles and pulled up for a simple 15 footer. Always the right decision

During Jordan's career there were thoussands of moments just like that. Every tight playoff game against the Knicks and the Jazz and the Pacers, Jordan repeatedly made the perfect decision, while guys like Ewing and malone and Reggie made that one tiny fatal mistake. Taht's why Jordan has all the titles. Even later in his career when there were dozens of guys that could fly higher then him, he still won. Because he always made the right play.

It's the same thing with Melo today. For as many times as Carmelo(and Amare) have carried us, we've seen them make dozens of bonehead plays during crunch times of crucial games. I'm not even talking about over the course of the season. I'm talking about in the 15 or 20 "must win" games we've had this year. We've seen charges, forced passes, bad shots, missed box outs, losing their men on defense, forgetting to foul. These are things the true superstars just don't do. For them to make the next level(which they clearly can) they have to erase these mistakes. I personally think it's a direct result of not playing college ball for an extensive period of time, but that's just me. I love them both, but reality is reality. Being great is making big plays and also not making dumb ones.

Marv wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I'm kind of with Fish on this. There's nothing wrong with saying Carmelo is TMac, or Vince etc. Those guys are/were great players and they don't need to apologize to anyone. But it's true, Melo and the crew listed have never won anything. The GREAT ONES have all won. You can't be included in that class until you put your team on your shouldesr and WIN. I agree with Fish, when/if he does this, there is no argument that he is elite. Until then he is another damn good player with something to prove. Same with Amare in my view. This may seem harsh, but I don't think it is. I think it just means they are a class below the very best. Again, no shame in that. You can win a title with guys like that. Just harder to build a team around guys at that level.

But to say he's just an above average player is beyond ridiculous

When you say win, or the great one's have won, are you referring to rings? If so, then thats a whole 'nother debate.

Not just rings.. WIN. What has Melo won? He's been in the playoffs every year and won 2 series out of like 9 played. You can knock his supporting cast all you want but Ewing had similar problems but the Knicks were in round 2 for ten straight years. When you look at a player's body of work dont you think that matters?

Amare has a good playoff record, but for one reason or another was stopped by a Duncan or a Kobe, etc

I would rate Amare's career a small notch above Melo's for what he's done in the post season.

Funny thing about sports? It only takes one great year, and one great run, fair or unfair. You can tell me all day long (and possibly be right) that Romo and Rivers are better QBs then Eli, but he outplayed Romo, Farve and Brady in b2b2b weeks and on the biggest stage in sports engineered a famous drive capped by a win and SB MVP. Those other guys dont. Who's career would you rather have right now?

This stuff matters fair or not. Playoffs wins and titles are something that can be measured over a body of work and they count for something.

I think both Fish and Bip is off base comparing Carmelo to TMac, Vince and Arenas...Getting to the playoffs 7 consecutive years in the western conference is an achievement in itself...I look at Carmelo this way, If he replaced Kobe in the Lakers lineup when the Lakers won, would the Lakers win as many Championships?..I would say yes...Now, would the Lakers win with TMAC, Vince and Arenas..I would say no...Melo brings more to the table than these stars..It's not always quantified stats...Fish is comparing how far certain players have gone in the playoffs and judging their careers on that...These teams are not on equal footing so it's erroneous to judge based on how far someone got in the playoffs...Carmelo can be the type of player you build your team around...He obviously need other key parts to win it like Kobe did but I don't think you build around TMac, Vince or Arenas...These three have put up nice numbers but never carried their teams in any winning situation consecutively...Having consecutive 50 win seasons in this league means something, having that underbelly of a consistent winning situation for which is was the anchor means something...Comparing him to guys that is known for basically just putting up stats isn't really accurate measurement of who this guy really is..

That's a hypothetical situation that can never be proven and doesn't really answer the question. The only thing we can really go by is what they have achieved. In the last two nights I've seen Carmelo forget to foul, and lose a man defensively a couple times in huge situations. This season I've seen him committ at least 4 offensive fouls on final possessions while with us and once while playing against us. These boners in crunch time are what seperate the Kobe's from the Carmelo's

TMI

I pay closer attention to the game then most. Unfortunately this means that sometimes you see things you don't want to see.

holfresh wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Think about Karl Malone and Michael Jordan. Both are all-time greats. You cannot deny it. But what seperates Michael from Karl can be summed up in that final game. I'm going by memory right now so correct me if my summary is wrong but it's close enough.

1.) Jazz up one, Karl Malone has the ball up one with about 20 seconds left with a chance to put his team up 3 and most likely force game 7 at home.
2.) Karl Malone gets the ball in the post in one of the most important moments of his career and after thousands of post ups, one of the best passing most aware big men in the history of the game picks that moment to forget to look for the double team. Picks that moment to have a brain lapse
3.) Michael Jordan, hyper aware notices that Karl did not look for the double team. Hyper elite status aware that he has time to get their before Karl will find the open man. The biggest moment of the season and he picks that moment to make the best possible decision again!!! He rips the ball from Malone
4.) Next play Jordan hits the game winning shot to win the title. He didn't over penetrate and barrell into eight guys. He didn't drive into a double team. he didn't jack up a three pointer. He didn't dribble the ball off his knee. He simply took a couple dribbles and pulled up for a simple 15 footer. Always the right decision

During Jordan's career there were thoussands of moments just like that. Every tight playoff game against the Knicks and the Jazz and the Pacers, Jordan repeatedly made the perfect decision, while guys like Ewing and malone and Reggie made that one tiny fatal mistake. Taht's why Jordan has all the titles. Even later in his career when there were dozens of guys that could fly higher then him, he still won. Because he always made the right play.

It's the same thing with Melo today. For as many times as Carmelo(and Amare) have carried us, we've seen them make dozens of bonehead plays during crunch times of crucial games. I'm not even talking about over the course of the season. I'm talking about in the 15 or 20 "must win" games we've had this year. We've seen charges, forced passes, bad shots, missed box outs, losing their men on defense, forgetting to foul. These are things the true superstars just don't do. For them to make the next level(which they clearly can) they have to erase these mistakes. I personally think it's a direct result of not playing college ball for an extensive period of time, but that's just me. I love them both, but reality is reality. Being great is making big plays and also not making dumb ones.

I seen the same bonehead plays, I have also seen him execute down the stretch...He hasn't had the opportunities the others has had on the big stage...I think this is different for Carmelo being in NY...He wanted the big stage and he is trying to prove he was worthy of the big trade...I think he is being over zealous in trying to get everything right and making sure people see him playing hard...I think he is trying too hard to be honest...But he is starting to get what comes along with playing in NY...I'll give it an offseason and a chance to get to know Amare on the court...I think you will see a very different player than you saw in Denver...He has had some 10 assist games here, 17 boards there...U just don't turn stuff like that on...Right now he is trying hard to prove he belongs and it's hurting his game and his decisions...

Holfresh that's the point. The man has been great for us. The man has carried us in important games. I'm not knocking him. That last game was phenomenal. He's hit game winners. He's made heady passes and steals and blocks when it matters. he has made a fan out of me when. I was a sceptic. But you don't get labelled a elite star just for trying hard. After retirement MJ wanted to prove to the world he was still great. He didn't try to hard. He just did it. Shaq wanted to prove it was him not Kobe. So he won in Miami. There was no trying to hard and bonehead mistkes. Kobe wanted to prove he could win without Shaq. He did. These guys did it on bigger stages then _armelo. For the criticims to stop carmelo needs stop trying to hard, stop falling asleep at crucial moments and just get it done. Carmelo and amare are our leaders. Their teammates follow what they do. They should NEVER forget to foul. NEVER barrell into a double/triple team in crunch time. They should never fall asleep and give up a crucial wide open J at the key moments. Its unacceptable to happen even once to one of your stars, let alone repeatedly. During crunch time TD and Jared can be boneheads, those two cannot

That's how you become a true superstar. No doubt they can do it, and I feel good about our chances. But these moments have to be eliminated. No excuses. Otherwise the critics sill always be there