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Berger Update: Knicks giving up their 2014 pick not Minnesota's pick
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martin
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2/20/2011  8:59 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
martin wrote:Melo is in the spot of directing himself at the Knicks while also making sure that the Knicks have assets left to work with later.

No, he is NOT.

He CANNOT give the Knicks ALL the leverage. Knicks HAVE to be prompted to give enough value back to Denver to get them to do a deal.

Like this. Melo: "I am opting out."

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Knickoftime
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2/20/2011  9:04 PM
martin wrote:Question: Should the Lakers have given up Bynum or Odom in the Pau Gasol trade or head firm with what they did give up?

If at the time they HAD to, then yes.

If they give up both or one of Bynum/Odom they prob are very good second round material and decidedly not Champions.
\

Likewise they aren't champions if the never got Gasol.

Your question is indirectly based on the premise the Knicks can get Melo without giving up Chandler and/or Gallo.

Knickoftime
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2/20/2011  9:07 PM
martin wrote:Like this. Melo: "I am opting out."

Denver: "Okay, take us to this year's play-offs and good luck on the open market".

There is little to no point arguing with someone who is utterly convinced Carmelo Anthony thinks exactly like he does.

martin
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2/20/2011  9:09 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
martin wrote:Question: Should the Lakers have given up Bynum or Odom in the Pau Gasol trade or head firm with what they did give up?

If at the time they HAD to, then yes.

If they give up both or one of Bynum/Odom they prob are very good second round material and decidedly not Champions.

Likewise they aren't champions if the never got Gasol.

Your question is indirectly based on the premise the Knicks can get Melo without giving up Chandler and/or Gallo.

it's indirect way of suggesting that if you give up too much for Melo, and as example of how the Lakers came to fruition, they will not be in a position to compete for a championship.

The Lakers needed both Pau and a combo of Bynum/Odom. Same with the Knicks.

You cannot at all assume that a future starting PG, bench, backup PG will just materialize out of nowhere, which is why you need Chandler/Gallo/picks/AR types on your team after a Melo deal.

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martin
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2/20/2011  9:10 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
martin wrote:Like this. Melo: "I am opting out."

Denver: "Okay, take us to this year's play-offs and good luck on the open market".

There is little to no point arguing with someone who is utterly convinced Carmelo Anthony thinks exactly like he does.

and you know what, the Knicks should be OK with that. If Melo doesn't want to play for a Championship team, they should walk away from him and focus on guys who do.

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Knickoftime
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2/20/2011  9:17 PM
martin wrote:it's indirect way of suggesting that if you give up too much for Melo, and as example of how the Lakers came to fruition, they will not be in a position to compete for a championship.

So answer your own question.

If at the time the Lakers HAD to deal Odom or Bynum for Gasol, and the deal they got wasn't possible, should they have?

martin
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2/20/2011  9:17 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
martin wrote:Like this. Melo: "I am opting out."

Denver: "Okay, take us to this year's play-offs and good luck on the open market".

There is little to no point arguing with someone who is utterly convinced Carmelo Anthony thinks exactly like he does.

are you suggesting that Nuggs are OK with what TOR, CLE, PHO got for Bosh, LeBron, Amare? which is just about nada with a trade exception?

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martin
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2/20/2011  9:19 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
martin wrote:it's indirect way of suggesting that if you give up too much for Melo, and as example of how the Lakers came to fruition, they will not be in a position to compete for a championship.

So answer your own question.

If at the time the Lakers HAD to deal Odom or Bynum for Gasol, and the deal they got wasn't possible, should they have?

the point is they didn't and they had a pathway past second round, and that's how the Knicks should deal.

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Knickoftime
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2/20/2011  9:24 PM
martin wrote:and you know what, the Knicks should be OK with that. If Melo doesn't want to play for a Championship team, they should walk away from him and focus on guys who do.

Fair enough.

But then you should start with ridding the Knicks of Amare toudemire, who selfishly took $16.5m when the Miami three took 2 million less.

Knicks are going to be waiting a LONG time waiting for the Miami thing to happen again.

Knickoftime
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2/20/2011  9:27 PM
martin wrote:are you suggesting that Nuggs are OK with what TOR, CLE, PHO got for Bosh, LeBron, Amare? which is just about nada with a trade exception?

No, I'm suggesting it's not 2010 anymore.

[Checks calendar]

Yup, I'm right.

The CBA is expiring. Carmelo Anthony considers that a factor in his decision. The Denver Nuggets are perfectly aware of this.

So you're talking apples and oranges.

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2/20/2011  9:31 PM
martin wrote:the point is they didn't and they had a pathway past second round, and that's how the Knicks should deal.

Answer the question asked. It's a perfectly fair question.

It's also a bit dubious to isolate either a once-in-history free agent season (Miami) or an extremely rare gift trade (Gasol) and offer that up as the path the Knicks should try to follow.

Gasol isn't happening again, which is the biggest takeaway from your attempt at parable.

martin
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2/20/2011  9:51 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
martin wrote:the point is they didn't and they had a pathway past second round, and that's how the Knicks should deal.

Answer the question asked. It's a perfectly fair question.

It's also a bit dubious to isolate either a once-in-history free agent season (Miami) or an extremely rare gift trade (Gasol) and offer that up as the path the Knicks should try to follow.

Gasol isn't happening again, which is the biggest takeaway from your attempt at parable.

Every team should answer a trade scenario this way: 1) Does it make my team better? 2) Does it lead directly to championship contending team (ala Boston) or 3) if not #2, does it make me better while also leaving me with enough room to still build significantly (within a reasonable time period) towards a championship contending team.

IMHO, the proposed deal with NY-DEV only does #1 and hand-cuffs them because of lack of assets and cap space.

Regarding, Lakers-Memphis, I may have added in one of Bynum/Odom (but certainly not both) but demanded something a lot more from Memphis, but I also would take into account what I had on my shelf that would allow me to keep building (unless I thought that Pau minus Odom, if that were the trade, was good enough to compete).

Again, here it is,


Amare $19.9
Melo $19.9
Turiaf
Mozgov $3.1
TD $2.0
Williams $1.0
Rautins $1.0
Fields $3.0
2011 First Round $1.0
-------------------------
$50.9

Without a 2012, 2014 pick and a 36 year old expiring Chauncy, how does that team upgrade significantly enough to beat CHI, MIA, LAL, OKC, with the general assumption that those teams could also upgrade in small bits too and will compete for the same UFA's.

Knicks need to upgrade defense, starting PG, bench depth, backup PG. And we also assume that Moz and Fields are good enough starting caliber players for deep playoff team.

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nixluva
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2/20/2011  9:53 PM
Every negotiation is different and the circumstances surrounding them is different. This guy is worth the expense cuz the Knicks already have Amar'e and you don't want to mess around when you can go all in and get the 2nd guy in Melo. You worry about replacing a guy like Gallo later. I'm assuming they don't believe Gallo will end up being an elite player or else I don't believe they would've put him on the table. The Knicks made that same determination with Hill and AR. You have to make that kind of decision and live with it.
martin
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2/20/2011  9:55 PM
nixluva wrote:Every negotiation is different and the circumstances surrounding them is different. This guy is worth the expense cuz the Knicks already have Amar'e and you don't want to mess around when you can go all in and get the 2nd guy in Melo. You worry about replacing a guy like Gallo later. I'm assuming they don't believe Gallo will end up being an elite player or else I don't believe they would've put him on the table. The Knicks made that same determination with Hill and AR. You have to make that kind of decision and live with it.

but literally, how do you upgrade significantly? see my post above.

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CrushAlot
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2/20/2011  10:03 PM
martin wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
martin wrote:the point is they didn't and they had a pathway past second round, and that's how the Knicks should deal.

Answer the question asked. It's a perfectly fair question.

It's also a bit dubious to isolate either a once-in-history free agent season (Miami) or an extremely rare gift trade (Gasol) and offer that up as the path the Knicks should try to follow.

Gasol isn't happening again, which is the biggest takeaway from your attempt at parable.

Every team should answer a trade scenario this way: 1) Does it make my team better? 2) Does it lead directly to championship contending team (ala Boston) or 3) if not #2, does it make me better while also leaving me with enough room to still build significantly (within a reasonable time period) towards a championship contending team.

IMHO, the proposed deal with NY-DEV only does #1 and hand-cuffs them because of lack of assets and cap space.

Regarding, Lakers-Memphis, I may have added in one of Bynum/Odom (but certainly not both) but demanded something a lot more from Memphis, but I also would take into account what I had on my shelf that would allow me to keep building (unless I thought that Pau minus Odom, if that were the trade, was good enough to compete).

Again, here it is,


Amare $19.9
Melo $19.9
Turiaf
Mozgov $3.1
TD $2.0
Williams $1.0
Rautins $1.0
Fields $3.0
2011 First Round $1.0
-------------------------
$50.9

Without a 2012, 2014 pick and a 36 year old expiring Chauncy, how does that team upgrade significantly enough to beat CHI, MIA, LAL, OKC, with the general assumption that those teams could also upgrade in small bits too and will compete for the same UFA's.

Knicks need to upgrade defense, starting PG, bench depth, backup PG. And we also assume that Moz and Fields are good enough starting caliber players for deep playoff team.

I totally agree. It has been a fun three and a half months of being a fan of an up and coming team that is doing things the right way. Now it appears that the Knicks are going back to their old ways and the franchise will be handcuffed for the future because of trading away draft picks, assets and giving up cap space. The rumors of Isiah's involvement on top of this is just too much. The original offer of Chandler or Gallo plus Curry and a first round pick was more than fair to offer for a guy that was going to walk at the end of the season for nothing in my opinion.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
nixluva
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2/20/2011  10:08 PM
martin wrote:
nixluva wrote:Every negotiation is different and the circumstances surrounding them is different. This guy is worth the expense cuz the Knicks already have Amar'e and you don't want to mess around when you can go all in and get the 2nd guy in Melo. You worry about replacing a guy like Gallo later. I'm assuming they don't believe Gallo will end up being an elite player or else I don't believe they would've put him on the table. The Knicks made that same determination with Hill and AR. You have to make that kind of decision and live with it.

but literally, how do you upgrade significantly? see my post above.


You have to look at young players that haven't reached the big dollar point yet. Vets that are willing to be part of a winning situation as well. It's entirely possible that Donnie has some guys in mind that he'll try to deal for. There are options. There's always some player that a team has fallen out of love with, but that has good talent. Maybe a kid like Mayo.
martin
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2/20/2011  10:14 PM
nixluva wrote:
martin wrote:
nixluva wrote:Every negotiation is different and the circumstances surrounding them is different. This guy is worth the expense cuz the Knicks already have Amar'e and you don't want to mess around when you can go all in and get the 2nd guy in Melo. You worry about replacing a guy like Gallo later. I'm assuming they don't believe Gallo will end up being an elite player or else I don't believe they would've put him on the table. The Knicks made that same determination with Hill and AR. You have to make that kind of decision and live with it.

but literally, how do you upgrade significantly? see my post above.


You have to look at young players that haven't reached the big dollar point yet. Vets that are willing to be part of a winning situation as well. It's entirely possible that Donnie has some guys in mind that he'll try to deal for. There are options. There's always some player that a team has fallen out of love with, but that has good talent. Maybe a kid like Mayo.

EVERY TEAM CAN DO THAT.

Miami starts with Bosh, LeBron, Wade and does the above. How is a team of Amare, Melo gonna do the same and be better?

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Papabear
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2/20/2011  10:15 PM
martin wrote:
nixluva wrote:Every negotiation is different and the circumstances surrounding them is different. This guy is worth the expense cuz the Knicks already have Amar'e and you don't want to mess around when you can go all in and get the 2nd guy in Melo. You worry about replacing a guy like Gallo later. I'm assuming they don't believe Gallo will end up being an elite player or else I don't believe they would've put him on the table. The Knicks made that same determination with Hill and AR. You have to make that kind of decision and live with it.

but literally, how do you upgrade significantly? see my post above.

Papabear Says

Melo and Amare will have to give something back. That's if they want to win a championship. I beleive Nash will sign with the Knicks for a small pay.

Papabear
nixluva
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2/20/2011  10:19 PM
martin wrote:
nixluva wrote:
martin wrote:
nixluva wrote:Every negotiation is different and the circumstances surrounding them is different. This guy is worth the expense cuz the Knicks already have Amar'e and you don't want to mess around when you can go all in and get the 2nd guy in Melo. You worry about replacing a guy like Gallo later. I'm assuming they don't believe Gallo will end up being an elite player or else I don't believe they would've put him on the table. The Knicks made that same determination with Hill and AR. You have to make that kind of decision and live with it.

but literally, how do you upgrade significantly? see my post above.


You have to look at young players that haven't reached the big dollar point yet. Vets that are willing to be part of a winning situation as well. It's entirely possible that Donnie has some guys in mind that he'll try to deal for. There are options. There's always some player that a team has fallen out of love with, but that has good talent. Maybe a kid like Mayo.

EVERY TEAM CAN DO THAT.

Miami starts with Bosh, LeBron, Wade and does the above. How is a team of Amare, Melo gonna do the same and be better?

What is your point exactly? Each GM competes to try and build the best team they can. They look for the best combination that can provide the best chemistry and fit. Who's to say that the Heat make the better choices verses the players the Knicks bring in? Since we don't know who the Knicks will eventually add and how that will effect the team, why assume that they can't find a better supporting cast? It's entirely possible that the Knicks could make a deal to bring in a good talent that puts us on par with the Heat. Unless you're suggesting it's impossible.

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2/20/2011  10:21 PM
The thing I don't understand is why they didnt try to sawp Gallo for Mozgov in the deal. That would make me happy, I love Gallo and I want him here. I think people here at UK and even Denver is overvaluing Moz because of a handful of decent games. But I read 2-3 places they are interested in the Wizard of Moz. Gallo can then be used in a different trade later if indeed he and Melo can't co-exist.Can we somehow sign one of Baby/Kper? - those are the two top FAs I would look at.
TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
Berger Update: Knicks giving up their 2014 pick not Minnesota's pick

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