martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:For me - this stat seems bogus. David Lee was rated at producing 16.7 wins for the Knicks last year. REALLY? Did he add 16 wins to the Warriors this year? No.

Amar'e was rated at producing 8.9 Wins - so you'd think the Knicks would be substantially worse by trading out DLee for Amar'e - except their substantially better. Fields is given credit for 17 wins this season... but does anyone really think it's Fields who has changed the culture of this team?

Sports is about intangibles. It's about the minute difference between winning and losing. I don't think stats can tell the full story about what happens in a game where the final score is 102 to 101.

I am having a hard time understanding the stat and what it means or how it should be interpreted. But I think the above is comparing apples to oranges when trying to eek out the meaning of this Wins Produced stat.

I think his post smashed the utility of the stat. If you feel otherwise, I'd be interested to hear what you consider an apple and orange to be in this instance.

Fuck that woj and his bull****

Still would love to get Melo......
Cant gut team though and now that looks like it wont Happen

I personally want to Keep Gallo I know we have yet to see the best of him. He is still our best draft pick in long time.

I would trade Ill will AR TD Curry Azu Walker Mason and Ruatins and picks for Melo..... Mozgov or Turiaf as well.

I say thats way better then Nets offer.... Kinda reminds me of KG trade

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:SupremeCommander, clutch stats very different that than what you had suggested previously. I don't doubt that and it seems backed up pretty nicely with stats what we can all read easily.

When you need him to score, he scores. How can this not be considered "automatic"? I stand by my assessment that he's an "automatic scoring option that plays the wing."

That's the thing, he doesn't do it on a more consistent basis than a LOT of other guys in the league across the whole game, just at the very end of a game. You know, perhaps if he hadn't shot the ball so poorly or shot it as well as the other guys, he may not have been in that same position.

That last sentence is obviously a stretch. But if he is "automatic" does that mean all of the other guys ahead of him in TS% (with some guys you obviously drop cause of circumstance), does that really mean they are MORE automatic?

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:For me - this stat seems bogus. David Lee was rated at producing 16.7 wins for the Knicks last year. REALLY? Did he add 16 wins to the Warriors this year? No.

Amar'e was rated at producing 8.9 Wins - so you'd think the Knicks would be substantially worse by trading out DLee for Amar'e - except their substantially better. Fields is given credit for 17 wins this season... but does anyone really think it's Fields who has changed the culture of this team?

Sports is about intangibles. It's about the minute difference between winning and losing. I don't think stats can tell the full story about what happens in a game where the final score is 102 to 101.

I am having a hard time understanding the stat and what it means or how it should be interpreted. But I think the above is comparing apples to oranges when trying to eek out the meaning of this Wins Produced stat.

I think his post smashed the utility of the stat. If you feel otherwise, I'd be interested to hear what you consider an apple and orange to be in this instance.

it's my understanding that the stat is both about the position of the player (and relative to the average produced by that position) but also what that player does on the team in conjunction with his teammates and also how the team itself it doing.

Comparing 2 players across 2 different teams makes the comparison apples and oranges. I mean, I don't disagree with in the intangibles part and am a big believer, but I think we may be missing the heart of what the stat tries to show.

BTW, where is the David Lee rating of 16.7 vs Amare 8.9 coming from? Link anyone? I can't seem to find the source of that.

BlueSeats wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:This conversation is stupid. What can I do more with

A. Caremlo Anthony

B. THREE of Gallo Fields Chandler Randolph and large amount of cap space in 2011

it's a no brainer

stupid question pleas emelo go to the nets--funny most Nest fans and they sck dont want melo at the cost)

As I recall, you thought Amare was too expensive relative to Lee too. How that working out for ya?

I didnt have to give up potentially 4 very good players for Amare did I? I have to give up a LOT to get Melo--way too much. We need a good C more than anything--we score the required points every night--we need a guy who can help clog the middle much better make some easy baskets rebound and a solid back up 1 and 4. Exzactly how much more wing scoring do we need--we score d 125 points last night--thats not the problem--the problem is we need a very decent back up PG and a legit C who can give us a double double nightly and clog the paint on the D. I mean do you watch the games--exactly how does Caremo Anthony improve the team last night--we scored 125 points. Thats not the problem.

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:SupremeCommander, clutch stats very different that than what you had suggested previously. I don't doubt that and it seems backed up pretty nicely with stats what we can all read easily.

When you need him to score, he scores. How can this not be considered "automatic"? I stand by my assessment that he's an "automatic scoring option that plays the wing."

That's the thing, he doesn't do it on a more consistent basis than a LOT of other guys in the league across the whole game, just at the very end of a game. You know, perhaps if he hadn't shot the ball so poorly or shot it as well as the other guys, he may not have been in that same position.

That last sentence is obviously a stretch. But if he is "automatic" does that mean all of the other guys ahead of him in TS% (with some guys you obviously drop cause of circumstance), does that really mean they are MORE automatic?

He isn't great three point shooter, w eknow this, and I don't think he'll be asked to do that here. eFG% and TS% will penalize him for that, but the Knicks would have other players shoot that shot. I don't see the need to penalize him for that. Why factor something he won't regularly be asked to do here into the mix?

Shouldn't some qualitative analysis go into the mix here too? I can't think of one player I'd rather have shoot from the elbow than maybe Dirk Nowitzki. At any time of the game.

But back to the original point of Melo not contributing to anything other scoring: he's ranked 59th in the history of the NBA/ABA in PER

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Just to keep the discussion on point, this wins produced stat is bogus

I am not penalizing Melo for shooting 3's, he is doing it to himself; it's what makes him a bad shooter, or at least a poor decision maker for a shooter. And in fact Melo shoots very little 3pointers as compared to other SF (or those who we would compare him too), so it shouldn't take away from the fact that he is only an average midrange shooter.

One example: Melo take about 10% of his shots from 3point land. Pierce is near 25%, LeBron 18%, Durant 25%.

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:SupremeCommander, clutch stats very different that than what you had suggested previously. I don't doubt that and it seems backed up pretty nicely with stats what we can all read easily.

When you need him to score, he scores. How can this not be considered "automatic"? I stand by my assessment that he's an "automatic scoring option that plays the wing."

That's the thing, he doesn't do it on a more consistent basis than a LOT of other guys in the league across the whole game, just at the very end of a game. You know, perhaps if he hadn't shot the ball so poorly or shot it as well as the other guys, he may not have been in that same position.

That last sentence is obviously a stretch. But if he is "automatic" does that mean all of the other guys ahead of him in TS% (with some guys you obviously drop cause of circumstance), does that really mean they are MORE automatic?

He isn't great three point shooter, w eknow this, and I don't think he'll be asked to do that here. eFG% and TS% will penalize him for that, but the Knicks would have other players shoot that shot. I don't see the need to penalize him for that. Why factor something he won't regularly be asked to do here into the mix?

Shouldn't some qualitative analysis go into the mix here too? I can't think of one player I'd rather have shoot from the elbow than maybe Dirk Nowitzki. At any time of the game.

But back to the original point of Melo not contributing to anything other scoring: he's ranked 59th in the history of the NBA/ABA in PER

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Just to keep the discussion on point, this wins produced stat is bogus

I am not penalizing Melo for shooting 3's, he is doing it to himself; it's what makes him a bad shooter, or at least a poor decision maker for a shooter. And in fact Melo shoots very little 3pointers as compared to other SF (or those who we would compare him too), so it shouldn't take away from the fact that he is only an average midrange shooter.

One example: Melo take about 10% of his shots from 3point land. Pierce is near 25%, LeBron 18%, Durant 25%.

If he's so average, and doesn't do anything other than score, why's he made the All NBA 3rd Team three times and 2nd Team once?

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:SupremeCommander, clutch stats very different that than what you had suggested previously. I don't doubt that and it seems backed up pretty nicely with stats what we can all read easily.

When you need him to score, he scores. How can this not be considered "automatic"? I stand by my assessment that he's an "automatic scoring option that plays the wing."

That's the thing, he doesn't do it on a more consistent basis than a LOT of other guys in the league across the whole game, just at the very end of a game. You know, perhaps if he hadn't shot the ball so poorly or shot it as well as the other guys, he may not have been in that same position.

That last sentence is obviously a stretch. But if he is "automatic" does that mean all of the other guys ahead of him in TS% (with some guys you obviously drop cause of circumstance), does that really mean they are MORE automatic?

He isn't great three point shooter, w eknow this, and I don't think he'll be asked to do that here. eFG% and TS% will penalize him for that, but the Knicks would have other players shoot that shot. I don't see the need to penalize him for that. Why factor something he won't regularly be asked to do here into the mix?

Shouldn't some qualitative analysis go into the mix here too? I can't think of one player I'd rather have shoot from the elbow than maybe Dirk Nowitzki. At any time of the game.

But back to the original point of Melo not contributing to anything other scoring: he's ranked 59th in the history of the NBA/ABA in PER

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Just to keep the discussion on point, this wins produced stat is bogus

I am not penalizing Melo for shooting 3's, he is doing it to himself; it's what makes him a bad shooter, or at least a poor decision maker for a shooter. And in fact Melo shoots very little 3pointers as compared to other SF (or those who we would compare him too), so it shouldn't take away from the fact that he is only an average midrange shooter.

One example: Melo take about 10% of his shots from 3point land. Pierce is near 25%, LeBron 18%, Durant 25%.

If he's so average, and doesn't do anything other than score, why's he made the All NBA 3rd Team three times and 2nd Team once?

cause the voters overrate offense and ESPN highlights?

grillco wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:can someone find/post Shareef Abdur Rahim's wins produced stat?

if someone could at least tell me where to look for SAR's win produced career figures, it'll destroy the merit of this stat. I can feel it. SAR always got those 20 point-10 rebound team and his team always lost. He'd fill up a box score and his team would win 25 games. I'm pretty sure he's going to have an excellent win produced number

See David Lee

Y 4 2 h8?

B Cuz D Lee = M T dbl dbl

the type of shots and where they take it are very similar.

TMS wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:Between camby coming back from injury and andre miller being acquired that year, that would explain the win differential to me.

riiiight... keep telling yourself that Melo had little to do with that Nuggets team winning over the past 7 years... hey, the chart proves it! lol

I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest that Melo had little to do with it, but are you also implying/suggesting that Melo had EVERYTHING to do with it?

Can't all of those factors be apart of it?