Finestrg wrote:It's a shame it's come to this -- I like Randolph a lot and I think he could've been helping this team all along..If it were up to me he would've been playing and very much a part of this rotation (I would've made it a point to instill a sense of trust & confidence in him that he obviously needs--I personally think that could be a big key with him) or at least he would've been given the same chance to succeed as Mozgov..I don't care what anyone says -- he was never given that opportunity and it's a crying shame because he's infinitely more talented than Moz... It's crazy to think that we need another big in the worst way, have for some time now in fact, and this kid was never given an opportunity to seize that role and grow with it (a 'real' opportunity mind you, not this quick look & dismissal MDA's given him ).

Moving on, if Minny's really interested in AR, there's no way I'm giving him up for Sebastian Telfair..His price tag has gotta be higher than that..I'm not even interested in Telfair (I actually think TD is playing a little better lately to be honest). A player I would be willing to take a chance on however is Kosta Koufos..As young as Randolph, this dude's a legit NBA C (7'1") with a good overall skillset..He's not getting substantial PT at all for whatever reason, currently behind Darko and Nikola Pekovic. I think he could operate well in this system -- he's a very good shooter for a guy that big with superior range, touch & form and while not necessarily known for rebounding, blocking shots or playing overly physical I think he could contribute in these areas as well if given enough playing time each game..Forget Telfair -- not interested in giving up AR for a troubled individual who would only amount to a rest-of-the-season rental, not to mention a guy who can't even crack the T-Wolves' rotation at the moment..Pass...Instead, how 'bout AR for Koufos or Koufos and their 2011 2nd rounder?? I think that's fair..At least we come out of it with a legit NBA center with considerable skill and youth. I think this guy could be the player they envisioned Mozgov to be..

As far as the draft, it's super early but two players that intrigue me for the Knicks are 6'10" PF Trey Thompkins (has an effective inside/outside game, something in between a PJ Brown/David West/slightly shorter LeMarcus Aldridge maybe) and 6'3" PG Demetri McCamey (not overly athletic or a blow-by type but he's smart & smooth with a good handle, a great passer--NCAA's top assist man in fact two years in a row now [surprising considering that Illinois club has lacked true offensive firepower of any kind recently], and he's a very good outside shooter. Clutch too..Randy Foye with more PG ability; maybe something closer to Chauncey Billups eventually (ceiling)..

Pick 20 or so: 6'10" PF Trey Thompkins, Georgia -- might go a little higher--his play's a little down from last season but if he starts playing bigger from here on in, it could warrant moving up a couple of slots to get him.

Early 30s Minnesota 2nd rounder: 6'3" PG Demetri McCamey, Illinois--same as TT, McCamey could go higher -- if he closes out the year strong (he's really been solid so far), maybe we move up a little to get him..He could give us that savvy passer we currently lack off the bench behind Felton. His stellar outside shooting would work nicely in this system as well (he's hitting his 3s at a 49.2% clip so far this year ).

2 "safe" type picks that fill needs..Sometimes that's the way to go..

Papabear Says

We will never win a championship with D'Antoni as the head coach. He is head strong in his ways. He is now killing Amare and Felton and refuse to play guys like AR. He is messing with this kids head. If Amare goes down there goes our season. Walsh needs to step up and make him play AR.

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

We will never win a championship with D'Antoni as the head coach. He is head strong in his ways. He is now killing Amare and Felton and refuse to play guys like AR. He is messing with this kids head. If Amare goes down there goes our season. Walsh needs to step up and make him play AR.

Man what the HECK are you talking about? EVERY coach that wins is headstrong. That's doesn't make them wrong. How do you know that playing AR would solve the problem of playing Amar'e too many minutes? Also star players habitually play big minutes. The schedule has been more sparse lately so there are plenty of rest days. Also Mike is trying to use the bench more, but not at the expense of trying to win. Soon enough Donnie is gonna find an answer to the problem we have which is finding a rebounder. I think Timo will eventually get back into the rotation as well. It's too early to panic. We've played 31 games!

AnubisADL wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Minny gets nothing from us if it doesn't include Ricky. I say no to Telfair-- absolutely, unequivocally no. They still owe us from the Darko trade. The thought of Telfair as an option to me means that they do not think that Douglas can be the instant offense off the bench. Mike needs to fill the Leandro Barbosa role for this team. It's his coaching style. Mayo might be better suited to that role, if Memphis were up for a Randolph/Mayo swap. I'll toss in Bill Walker. Otherwise, I would be looking to pry Javale McGee away from the Wizards if they are open to discussions.

Why do you propose other teams will give away players who actually play for our DNP players?

Washington is a rebuilding team and they arent going to give away McGee or Blatche. I dont see Walsh trading picks or Gallo for them so this is a moot point. Centers dont grow on trees either.

Memphis is another young team and Mayo is still on his rookie deal. They arent going to give him away for garbage.

I think Randolph has some value notwithstanding his absence from the rotation. Different strokes for different folks. I don't know that Memphis is going to make the Mayo/Randolph swap but I don't think it is that far off, its not like I am proposing a Blake Griffin for Randolph swap... and Mayo is not lighting it up anywhere. If randolph learns some basketball fundamentals, I would keep him. I think his upside is something closer to a Marcus Camby while Mayo, well, shoot first smalls are a dime a dozen. Mayo has name recognition cause of his time at USC. Maybe it isn't that I value Randolph so highly, but I value Mayo pretty low.

I don't know what it would take to pry McGee away from the Wzards, but that is the first conversation I would have.

As for people's trade value of Chandler-- I think Randolph's value is higher based upon his contract. Chandler's expiring/restricted free agency rights detract from the trade value of a player like chandler. I'd think that for McGee it might take Chandler and Randolph to start the conversation.

Darko was nothing at time of trade. There was no steal, no favor. He has talent but burned a few bridges. Most thought he was wanting to go euro after last season.

nixluva wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

We will never win a championship with D'Antoni as the head coach. He is head strong in his ways. He is now killing Amare and Felton and refuse to play guys like AR. He is messing with this kids head. If Amare goes down there goes our season. Walsh needs to step up and make him play AR.

Man what the HECK are you talking about? EVERY coach that wins is headstrong. That's doesn't make them wrong. How do you know that playing AR would solve the problem of playing Amar'e too many minutes? Also star players habitually play big minutes. The schedule has been more sparse lately so there are plenty of rest days. Also Mike is trying to use the bench more, but not at the expense of trying to win. Soon enough Donnie is gonna find an answer to the problem we have which is finding a rebounder. I think Timo will eventually get back into the rotation as well. It's too early to panic. We've played 31 games!

I believe Papabear's making some sense here actually..Nix, you asked the following question: "how do you know that playing AR would solve the problem of playing Amar'e too many minutes"? I think you can only answer that question with another question -- how do you not know? Well I'll tell you how -- by shutting him down completely and never giving him a chance to play and see the light of day, that's how. Simple...I think it's safe to say we now know Mozgov isn't ready to help this team steadily but at least with that guy there was some trust, belief in his ability and a process..He was given a real chance to earn a big role in this rotation, even given a chance to start and given ample room to make mistakes and grow with the role..Thing is Timmy never really appeared to be making any true progress and thus had to sit. Point is Mozgov was given a real run; AR was given token mins here and there---there's a difference..I'm watching a replay of the Minny/Denver game right now -- let me ask you, how does Darko look now that he's playing for a team that's giving him an opportunity?? Mike never played this guy really and the few times he did get in he looked lost and confused..Sound familiar?? It's the same damn thing with Randolph all over again. And I don't buy the fact that assimilating AR into the rotation somehow runs the risk of us losing games..That's baloney..He could only help us..The point is you try it. We need another big man that can contribute on both ends beside Amar'e Stoudemire. That much is crystal clear..I believe those that are saying Amar'e playing too many mins could pose a problem down the road. Another 10 games and we're halfway through the season already -- where is this additional big man gonna come from??? Before looking elsewhere common sense dictates that you always look from within to solve any and all problems first..Give this kid a chance to help you. Am I really the only one out there that thinks it would be a complete waste if we let AR go now (and for garbage like Sebastian Telfair no less) w/o seeing firsthand if he could give our frontline at least some of what it's lacking???? Giving AR away for Telfair really is the Darko for Cardinal trade all over again...GIVE AR A FRIGGIN' CHANCE HERE!! 10-20 games and let him play through mistakes in the beginning..If after 20 games he shows that he's not helping a-la Mozgov, he sits and you look elsewhere for help. That's step 1 in going about solving this problem right there folks..It's late (this whole evaluation process really should've been conducted in the beginning of the season) but never too late..I say give him this whole month of January to come off the bench and really look to see if his skills can benefit and enhance the team. My bet is they would. I don't consider that "panicing," I consider that being smart about evaluating your own in-house talent and not just dismissing it outright..That's just foolish imho.

smackeddog wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:
Darko for Cardinal was a steal. Before getting hurt Darko was written up as a darkhorse for most improved player and he is leading the league in blocks. Walsh traded Q for Darko. Q was an expiring contract as well as Darko and had value to the Knicks but Walsh thought Darko could fill a need. Darko went to Minny as a 24 year old seven footer. He has done well there and was steal. You can debate the logic of signing him to his new contract but you can't debate taking a chance on a #2 overall pick in a draft that is only 24 and was banished to the bench by his coach and getting him for Brian Cardinal.

DW gave darko to the Twolves as a favour (despite Kahn screwing us repeatedly when it came to pg's and laughing at our roster)- not because he was stupid- we literally got nothing out of that trade, Walsh could have just bought him out at the deadline, but he did the classy thing and maybe hoped to build some goodwill with the Twolves for future transactions. Unfortunately Kahn is an a**hole and by seriously proposing Telfair for AR, it shows either that a) he doesn't realise that Walsh did him a favour with the Darko trade- he probably thinks he outsmarted Walsh, or b) Does not appreciate or feel even remotely obligated to return any good will.

Proposing Telfair for AR is just insulting

I wish we could fast forward to the trade deadline, because it seems DW can't make any serious moves to improve our bench until he knows whats happening with Melo

Good post Smack -- all solid points. It's crazy but you really do get a feeling that Kahn isn't looking to conduct business with Donnie on a fair and mutually beneficial level.

Finestrg wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:
Darko for Cardinal was a steal. Before getting hurt Darko was written up as a darkhorse for most improved player and he is leading the league in blocks. Walsh traded Q for Darko. Q was an expiring contract as well as Darko and had value to the Knicks but Walsh thought Darko could fill a need. Darko went to Minny as a 24 year old seven footer. He has done well there and was steal. You can debate the logic of signing him to his new contract but you can't debate taking a chance on a #2 overall pick in a draft that is only 24 and was banished to the bench by his coach and getting him for Brian Cardinal.

DW gave darko to the Twolves as a favour (despite Kahn screwing us repeatedly when it came to pg's and laughing at our roster)- not because he was stupid- we literally got nothing out of that trade, Walsh could have just bought him out at the deadline, but he did the classy thing and maybe hoped to build some goodwill with the Twolves for future transactions. Unfortunately Kahn is an a**hole and by seriously proposing Telfair for AR, it shows either that a) he doesn't realise that Walsh did him a favour with the Darko trade- he probably thinks he outsmarted Walsh, or b) Does not appreciate or feel even remotely obligated to return any good will.

Proposing Telfair for AR is just insulting

I wish we could fast forward to the trade deadline, because it seems DW can't make any serious moves to improve our bench until he knows whats happening with Melo

Good post Smack -- all solid points. It's crazy but you really do get a feeling that Kahn isn't looking to conduct business with Donnie on a fair and mutually beneficial level.

What if Kahn threw in someone like Wayne Ellington or Corey Brewer along with Anthony Tolliver and we threw in Mason and Walker? Would trading AR be more palatable? Minny does have a glut of young, useful wings that I wouldn't mind having. Ellington's three-point shot would be useful off the Bench and Tolliver would give us another big body who can play off the bench.

Papabear wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

We will never win a championship with D'Antoni as the head coach. He is head strong in his ways. He is now killing Amare and Felton and refuse to play guys like AR. He is messing with this kids head. If Amare goes down there goes our season. Walsh needs to step up and make him play AR.

Man what the HECK are you talking about? EVERY coach that wins is headstrong. That's doesn't make them wrong. How do you know that playing AR would solve the problem of playing Amar'e too many minutes? Also star players habitually play big minutes. The schedule has been more sparse lately so there are plenty of rest days. Also Mike is trying to use the bench more, but not at the expense of trying to win. Soon enough Donnie is gonna find an answer to the problem we have which is finding a rebounder. I think Timo will eventually get back into the rotation as well. It's too early to panic. We've played 31 games!

Papabear Says

With Mike D it's personal. This kid AR came to us as a hot prospect. Now the coaches should have worked with him and got him in some games. I don't know what the kid can do because Mike D won't play him. We still have the same old problems with this team even though we are winning inspite of Mike D you mark my word if they keep playing Amare like they are he will wear down. Big Centers are dubbling on him and he refuse to put AR in the game even for defense and rebounds. Mike D still believe that he can win a championship with a small team with no Center and play head games with his bench. Mike D wrong man for the Knicks. We will win games but never the big prize with him and his head games.

i have a different take on ar. when we picked him up i read through some golden state forums. pretty amazing what people were saying about ar who had watched every one of his nba games. they say he's an emotional freakshow. that at least once every game he would break out into a major pout and sulk that either resulted in tears or close to it. that he can’t handle criticism, rebuke, challenge or correction.

you can call people hatters or mda-apologists all you want, but the kid just might have some real issues that he has to conquer to be a player in this league, regardless of his physical talents. They might need to be addressed in practice and off-court, not in the spotlights of an nba game.

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:
GIVE AR A FRIGGIN' CHANCE HERE!! 10-20 games and let him play through mistakes in the beginning..If after 20 games he shows that he's not helping a-la Mozgov, he sits and you look elsewhere for help. It's late (this whole evaluation process should been conducted in the beginning of the season) but never too late..I say give him this whole month of January to come off the bench and really look to see if his skills can benefit and enhance the team. My bet is they would. I don't consider that "panicing," I consider that being smart about evaluating your own in-house talent and not just dismissing it outright..That's just foolish imho.

wait, that did happen for both Moz and AR. I think they will both get their chances again but not so that it would effect playoff chances.

Marv wrote:

i have a different take on ar. when we picked him up i read through some golden state forums. pretty amazing what people were saying about ar who had watched every one of his nba games. they say he's an emotional freakshow. that at least once every game he would break out into a major pout and sulk that either resulted in tears or close to it. that he can’t handle criticism, rebuke, challenge or correction.

you can call people hatters or mda-apologists all you want, but the kid just might have some real issues that he has to conquer to be a player in this league, regardless of his physical talents. They might need to be addressed in practice and off-court, not in the spotlights of an nba game.

Makes sense Marv. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. I still don't believe that D'Antoni has given him a fair chance to make the rotation again. I understand why he was benched and I supported it. The Knicks are showing the effects of a small rotation, we haven't reached the all-star break, give AR a shot and put him in when they are running the ball.

I'm pretty sure the coaching staff knew when he got here that the half court wasn't where AR was going to have an impact. He has to pick up that aspect of the game eventually but it seemed odd that D'Antoni subbed him mostly in situations where it was less likely that he would contribute.

AR wants PT, looks like the only way he will get it is by learning to play slow ball so its on him to figure things out. That is what he is paid to do. I see both sides at fault here so a trade might be the only solution. I'm glad Walsh is smart enough not to do an AR for Telfair trade straight up.

cheers wrote:

Marv wrote:

Papabear wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

We will never win a championship with D'Antoni as the head coach. He is head strong in his ways. He is now killing Amare and Felton and refuse to play guys like AR. He is messing with this kids head. If Amare goes down there goes our season. Walsh needs to step up and make him play AR.

Man what the HECK are you talking about? EVERY coach that wins is headstrong. That's doesn't make them wrong. How do you know that playing AR would solve the problem of playing Amar'e too many minutes? Also star players habitually play big minutes. The schedule has been more sparse lately so there are plenty of rest days. Also Mike is trying to use the bench more, but not at the expense of trying to win. Soon enough Donnie is gonna find an answer to the problem we have which is finding a rebounder. I think Timo will eventually get back into the rotation as well. It's too early to panic. We've played 31 games!

Papabear Says

With Mike D it's personal. This kid AR came to us as a hot prospect. Now the coaches should have worked with him and got him in some games. I don't know what the kid can do because Mike D won't play him. We still have the same old problems with this team even though we are winning inspite of Mike D you mark my word if they keep playing Amare like they are he will wear down. Big Centers are dubbling on him and he refuse to put AR in the game even for defense and rebounds. Mike D still believe that he can win a championship with a small team with no Center and play head games with his bench. Mike D wrong man for the Knicks. We will win games but never the big prize with him and his head games.

i have a different take on ar. when we picked him up i read through some golden state forums. pretty amazing what people were saying about ar who had watched every one of his nba games. they say he's an emotional freakshow. that at least once every game he would break out into a major pout and sulk that either resulted in tears or close to it. that he can’t handle criticism, rebuke, challenge or correction.

you can call people hatters or mda-apologists all you want, but the kid just might have some real issues that he has to conquer to be a player in this league, regardless of his physical talents. They might need to be addressed in practice and off-court, not in the spotlights of an nba game.

so ar got all the way to the nba and is making $2,000,000 this season but he has to get over being emo to be a successful bench player. lol.

people built with different personalities from stoic to emo.. it does not incapacitate them from achieving success in life. michael jordan is a championship HOF even though he had a severe gambling addiction during his playing days. all we asking ar is to be a bench player. play ar.

so we're gonna laud ron artest on one hand for coming to grips with his emotional issues and dismiss the impact on ar on the other? ever hear of roy tarpley? jr rider? eddy curry?