Uptown wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I agree with Briggs.

Give this team Luke Ridnour and Carl Landry to run the bench offense and it will win 55 games this season.

Those are my two targets for this team.

This team may peak as a 4 seed if Atl slips a bit. This projected team is not competing with the Heat, Celts, Lakers or Spurs.

Spurs and Celts are getting old. Hopefully our peak = their decline.

Uptown wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I agree with Briggs.

Give this team Luke Ridnour and Carl Landry to run the bench offense and it will win 55 games this season.

Those are my two targets for this team.

This team may peak as a 4 seed if Atl slips a bit. This projected team is not competing with the Heat, Celts, Lakers or Spurs.

of course not. i agree with that.

i think the big things they should target if the Melo trade doesn't happen (not saying I want it or don't want it, but if it doesn't happen):

1) Make a strong offer for Camby and Rudy Fernandez. Obviously Camby gives us the size, shotblocking and defense we need. He doesn't hurt the 2012 cap and he's a true Knick. Rudy is a shooter we desperately need to add - it will help greatly in the playoffs to get a shooter like him.

or

2) Make a strong offer for OJ Mayo from Memphis. He would be a star in this system and is able to create his own shot if Amar'e is clogged up in the lane.

or

3) Try to enhance the bench with guys like Carl Landry and Luke Ridnour and try to add a defensive big over the summer.

TheGame wrote:

fishmike wrote:size and depth can win also. So can defense and a team concept. Who were the stars on the Piston's who beat the Lakers in 5 games in the finals in the middle of Shaq/Kobe's prime?

Is Carmello shutting down Paul Pierce or boxing out KG?We didnt lose the game because we needed a great scorer. In fact we 116 and shot 53% against the best defensive team in the NBA.

Briggs is a mental case, but there doesnt seem to be a shred of evidence that Melo is elevating this team with what he brings.

The Melo will make us better because he's a star and stars win is just as faulty logic

Actually, if you watched the playoffs last year, Anthony can play pretty good defense when he puts his mind to it. He, like many players that carry their team, coasts on defense through the season, but he can guard SFs when he has too. The downside I see to Anthony is that he is not a great 3pt shooter and he will get alot of 3s in this offense. Sometimes guys improve their 3 point shot when they know it is going to become a bigger part of their game and Anthony is a great mid-range shooter, so I would have to believe that he can get better. He is an excellent rebounder and a beast to guard. I mean, Anthony can score anytime he wants to against anyone. You put Melo and Amare together with Felton, and there is no team in the league that is going to stop our offense. If we can get Melo while keeping Fields, I say go for it, but we have to keep either Fields, Chandler, or Gallo, we cannot give up all three for Anthony. Ideally, I would love for us to wait it out and hope he goes into FA and we can sign him for little of nothing. If Anthony really wants to win a championship here, that is what he will do.

nixluva wrote:There's also the concept that you don't let making the playoffs this year warp your thinking with regard to improving the team for the future. Getting Melo is really not about this year! That is a move for the next 5 years. You add a player of that caliber so that you can contend for a nice 5 year run or more. This can't be a short sighted decision. It's probably why Donnie will eventually make the deal even if it costs a lot this year. You do it and then do whatever you have to do to fill in for this year and hope it's enough. Then you look towards the future and say to yourself, someone will come here to be part of this even if we don't have a ton of money to give. You'll always be able to get someone to come to a title contender for the MLE.

Does anyone have count on how many draft we got if this ever happens? We surely need to add some depth? free agent and draft if that is how we can fill it I would believe but how much can we afford after that is another question?

Nalod wrote:

Uptown wrote:
Champs: 87 & 88 Lakers (Magic, Worthy, Kareem HOF super stars)
Champs: 89 &90 Pistons (Isiah and Dumars HOF stars. Rodman might be HOF when its all said and done)
Champs: 91-93 Bulls (Jordan and Pippen)
Champs: 94-95 Rockets (Hakeem and Drexler. 94 was an exception since the team the Rockets beat in the finals also only had one HOF'er in Ewing. However Hakeem was just flat out better)
Champs: 96-98 Bulls (Jordan and Pippen)
Champs: 99 Spurs (Robinson and Duncan)
Champs: 00- 02 Lakers (Shaq and Kobe)
ETC................................................. I'll give you the Larry brown Pistons but that was 1 out of the last 25 years. That Laker team was poorly put together as well. Unless STAT can average 35 a game in the playoffs, we will have a very tough time competing with the elite.

Good Post. Really.

Lets look a bit into this.

Kareems record with Lakers before Showtime:

1975 40 wins.
1976 53 wins (4-7 in playoffs)Draft Norm Nixon
1977 45 wins (1-2 in playoffs)Draft Michael cooper
1978 47 wins (3-5 in playoffs)Draft Magic Johnson
1979 60 wins (12-4 playoffs)(ist chip with Paul Westhead)
1980 54 wins (1-2 in playoffs)
1981 50 wins (12-2 in playffs) 2nd chip but with Riley Then Draft Worth!
1982 58 wins 8-7 in playoffs)

So basically Kareem don't win with lakes until 5 SEASON. They won two championships BEFORE they draft Worthy!!

5 seasons is patience. They rebuild around Kareem with draft and used good vet role players to fill. Look at the rosters back then. Mcadoo, Spencer Haywood, Jamall wilks, Rambis, Kuptchak, chones, . Got Byron Scott by trading for Norm Nixon.

Isiah and Dumars: Drafted
Jordan and pippen: Drafted
Hakeem: Drafted. Drexler was at tail end of career and traded reasonable.
Robinson and Duncan: Drafted
Kobe: Traded for Vlade. Shaq was Free agent.

What is always lost on the above is just how deep and how good the role players were! Bulls roler players were the difference and until Michael learned to trust them is when they started winning.

I don't doubt that you need players but how you get them and at what price is the difference. If you do Gallo-CHandler-Fields your going to have to rebuild around Amare and Melo.

Miami will win only if its role players and bench step up.

5 years it took the Lakers to rebuild after trading for Kareem until they won. They did it thru trading for picks.

Nicely done, old buddy.

nixluva wrote:

rp wrote:

nixluva wrote:There's also the concept that you don't let making the playoffs this year warp your thinking with regard to improving the team for the future. Getting Melo is really not about this year! That is a move for the next 5 years. You add a player of that caliber so that you can contend for a nice 5 year run or more. This can't be a short sighted decision. It's probably why Donnie will eventually make the deal even if it costs a lot this year. You do it and then do whatever you have to do to fill in for this year and hope it's enough. Then you look towards the future and say to yourself, someone will come here to be part of this even if we don't have a ton of money to give. You'll always be able to get someone to come to a title contender for the MLE.

Does anyone have count on how many draft we got if this ever happens? We surely need to add some depth? free agent and draft if that is how we can fill it I would believe but how much can we afford after that is another question?

This is why I wouldn't want Donnie's job right now. There are so many variables in making this decision. The cost of adding Melo seems to me to be very high in terms of current talent and picks. So while you make this deal for the near future of the teams, meaning the next 5 years. you have to think how do you get better if you give up all your cap space and send away picks? All you have left is the MLE and LLE. You have to weigh the cost against what you're getting. You would end up with a big 3 and not much else on the roster. Would that be enough to challenge for a title?

That's not a bad problem to have. The hardest part in building a team imo is acquiring that big three. Role players are MUCH easier to get. I much rather have a team with 3 Stars and 5 role players then 1 Star and 4 good players and 3 role players.

TMS wrote:let's offer the Thunder Gallo & Wilson for Kevin Durant... i'm sure they'd jump all over that after considering their combined production.

Defintely. Fields is untouchable in a Durant trade though. Westbrook is the heart of that team. Durant is just a volume scorer. OKC wins without Durant playing.

TMS wrote:let's offer the Thunder Gallo & Wilson for Kevin Durant... i'm sure they'd jump all over that after considering their combined production.

Uptown wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Briggy's logic isn't flawed, in fact I am with it. I do want to see the Melo situation play out first. Then if we strike out we should do exactly what he suggested. -- Meaning getting a big and a backup PG like he talks about.

Here is the logic I'm speaking of. In about 6-7 other threads Birggs has continued to say (I'm paraphrasing here) "Gallo and Chanlder combined can equal the same offensive output as Melo so we dont need him." He combined Gallo and Chandlers scoring output and rebounding numbers from last night and said they pretty much can give you what Melo will give. THAT IS THE LOGIC THAT IS FAULTY. You can't throw two average to barely above average NBA players stats together and say they can equal the impact of a superstar player. It doesn't work that way. As I mentioned in the first post, if thats the case we should have kept Harrington and Lee because their combined stats trumm Stoudemires stats. But obviously, we see Stoudemires impact on the floor goes beyond numbers and he is the main reason why we are 16-10 at this point as opposed to being 7-19 or whatever our record was last year at the same time when Lee and Harrington combined were putting up the same numbers as Amare.

Chanlder and Gallo were major parts of a Knicks teams that languished at the bottom of the east for the last 3 years. Chanlder has improved some this year, but dont get it twisted, Amare is the reason why we are no longer languishing in the bottom of the east (and Felton to). So if adding a superstar like Amare can change the direction of this franchise so much, how could anyone believe that adding a second star to this roster can hurt? Amare got us into the playoff picture and I think Melo's presence can gett us into the championship picture.

i agree Uptown, it's ridiculous logic to combine production from 2 inferior players & say trading them for a proven star would be a downgrade... your D Lee & Harrington/Amare example is dead on... a star player's impact on a roster goes way beyond the stats & numbers... it relieves pressure from every other guy on your roster & makes their job a lot easier... having a reliable every game scorer like Melo takes a ton of pressure off of Amare & Felton, & puts a ton more pressure on the opponent to have to guard them... Melo can carry a team on any given night offensively... you get the stars first, then worry about assembling the role players later... all the naysayers against a Melo trade seem to think anyone in support of it wants to gut the entire roster to get him here, which just isn't true... if u can get Melo for a reasonable package like Wilson, Gallo or Fields & AR, filler, pick(s), then i think u have to go for it... if DEN wants much more than that, then you move on & consider other options... it's not that complicated a discussion to me... i get the feeling the Knicks are going to make a move for Melo regardless of what anyone says... we'll see how things play out.

nixluva wrote:There's also the concept that you don't let making the playoffs this year warp your thinking with regard to improving the team for the future. Getting Melo is really not about this year! That is a move for the next 5 years. You add a player of that caliber so that you can contend for a nice 5 year run or more. This can't be a short sighted decision. It's probably why Donnie will eventually make the deal even if it costs a lot this year. You do it and then do whatever you have to do to fill in for this year and hope it's enough. Then you look towards the future and say to yourself, someone will come here to be part of this even if we don't have a ton of money to give. You'll always be able to get someone to come to a title contender for the MLE.

For once, I'm in agreement with nixluva, but I guess it's cause the topic isn't on D'Antoni!

Getting Melo should be the priority, and then we can figure out how to fill our holes at center and backup PG. Once we have a core of Felton/Melo/Amare, other FA's are going to flock to us just like they do the Lakers, Celtics, and Heat.

- We'd have the MLE
- We could find a gem with a late 1st rounder, like Hibbert or Splitter or Ben Wallace or countless other big men that routinely drop in the draft.
- We could get creative with trades, dangling Wilson Chandler or Toney Douglas. Hell, I wouldn't even mind taking back Al Harrington from Denver so Chandler becomes more expendable. Yes, Chandler >>> Harrington, but once we get Melo, the ideal lineup would be to find a legit center next to Amare and to bring Chandler/Harrington off the bench as a 6th man...and in that role, either player can suffice. We can then flip Chandler for a bigger need.

People advocating getting Varejao or Marc Gasol or even Camby (yeah I know I created the Camby thread ) have to realize those players will bring us to the salary cap as well, and limit future moves. Are we then going to hope to find a player of Carmelo's caliber with the MLE, or with a late 1st round pick, or via trade? Cause unless Gallo or Chandler take a gigantic next step and become legit #2 options (I don't like the idea of our PG being #2), we'd still be pretenders and not contenders.