BRIGGS wrote:If it was about getting star players Miami would be 17-0 they arent and they wont be ever.

It sports its about team and chemistry. We have two ball dominant players Amare and Felton--that is fine becasue our other guys can get theirs in the flow without the need to dominate it.

This isnt baseball this is a team sport. There are roles there is only 1 basketball. We need another scoring big and enhancement from the bench. That way we could play with amare with Gallo at PF Thompson at PF Turriaf at C etc.. the rotation is nice--

just think about this think about the differential if we removed Mosgov and pout in Thompson and Azu--cut down minutes so guys could go harder and get good rest. thatw hat SA is doing and they are 13-1. Utah--3 bigs you need 3 bigs. we have the other pieces or most of them that are building chemsitry

Felton's irrelevant to the discussion. He's on a 2 year contract and he's movable.

Paladin55 wrote:

TMS wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:We NEED Carmelo. This team is stuck in purgatory at the moment.

Not good enough to go deep in the playoffs and not bad enough to get a high lottery pick.

Amare needs help to for us to get to the next level.

People are looking at what is happening in Miami, I would think. Would Melo coming to the Knicks be a "subtraction by addition" situation, which may be what has happened in Miami? Would he fit in with Felton and Amare?

I'm not sure how he would fit in (things could turn out fine), but there is no guarantee that his addition to the team will be smooth.

Personally, I would rather have a 25 yr. old Ray Allen type player on this team- the kind of player who does not have to dominate the ball to be effective- than Melo, who may be a rhythm scorer who needs the ball a certain percentage of the time to be effective.

MDA coached him in the Olympics...wonder what his feelings are about him?

Paladdin, i think you make fair points as usual, but what 25 yo Ray Allen type player can we realistically get our hands on? is OJ Mayo a guy that can fill that role, & is he even available? is there another guy out there that comes close to filling that type of role?

There probably isn't any, my friend...just dreaming. I was "in love" with that guy years ago, just seems like the type of player I would prefer to have given given our roster, but yeah, I understand there is nobody like him on the market. Melo is a great midrange shooter, but is also the kind of player who can destroy the flow of an offense at times.

I like Gallo a great deal, and have always supported him, but his shooting, and game in general, has not taken the positive jump I was expecting this year. MDA's offense, whether or not you like it, requires some more consistent jump shooting than we are presently getting. I actually thought Rautins might be an answer for a few minutes each night, but it would seem that he is not.

Mayo might be this kind of player at some point in his career, but there are not many out there who with Allen type ability. I was also hoping that Azubuike might play a significant role this year, but who knows about him at this point.

It is nice to have a competitive team, though, one that gives you the sense that they can hold their own against most teams in the league.

i thought Gallo would take a big jump this year too, but that hasn't been the case... i'm not expecting much out of Azu either, he's just another expiring contract that will be out of here after this season, same as Al Harrington & Larry Hughes last year.

this year's team is definitely more fun to watch than last year's without question... it's nice to finally have a legitimate star calibre player to root for on this team... but IMO we need another star if we ever want to be a serious contender in the EC... Ray Felton is a nice player but i don't think he's a go to guy, & right now i have no confidence that Gallo, AR or Wilson will ever be able to fill that star player's role either.

The piece that we are missing is a center that can get some serious boards, guard the paint and be strong on the block. Someone like Camby or Kendrick Perkins. Turiaf, gives us 2/3 of that but he's too weak on the boards and too injury prone to be trusted with 30+ minutes. AR has a chance to be like that with some more muscle. Unfortunately, all but 3 teams in the league are also looking for that. Someone like Horford could make this team a very strong contender.

I think every other spot we're average to above average relative to the league as far as our starters go. I'm fine with not pursuing melo as long as Fields keeps playing well and Danilo keeps making these baby steps. This could be a 50 win team as soon as next season and Melo would be more of a sideways move. Chris Paul would catapult us to serious contenders with or without Melo.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If it was about getting star players Miami would be 17-0 they arent and they wont be ever.

It sports its about team and chemistry. We have two ball dominant players Amare and Felton--that is fine becasue our other guys can get theirs in the flow without the need to dominate it.

This isnt baseball this is a team sport. There are roles there is only 1 basketball. We need another scoring big and enhancement from the bench. That way we could play with amare with Gallo at PF Thompson at PF Turriaf at C etc.. the rotation is nice--

just think about this think about the differential if we removed Mosgov and pout in Thompson and Azu--cut down minutes so guys could go harder and get good rest. thatw hat SA is doing and they are 13-1. Utah--3 bigs you need 3 bigs. we have the other pieces or most of them that are building chemsitry

Felton's irrelevant to the discussion. He's on a 2 year contract and he's movable.

If you think Felton is irrelevant to anything you haven't been watching the knicks. he's at 18ppg and 8apg and playing through injuries and coming up big night in and night out.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If it was about getting star players Miami would be 17-0 they arent and they wont be ever.

It sports its about team and chemistry. We have two ball dominant players Amare and Felton--that is fine becasue our other guys can get theirs in the flow without the need to dominate it.

This isnt baseball this is a team sport. There are roles there is only 1 basketball. We need another scoring big and enhancement from the bench. That way we could play with amare with Gallo at PF Thompson at PF Turriaf at C etc.. the rotation is nice--

just think about this think about the differential if we removed Mosgov and pout in Thompson and Azu--cut down minutes so guys could go harder and get good rest. thatw hat SA is doing and they are 13-1. Utah--3 bigs you need 3 bigs. we have the other pieces or most of them that are building chemsitry

Felton's irrelevant to the discussion. He's on a 2 year contract and he's movable.

Felton's irrelevant? Guys avg 18-8-4 with 2 steals and shooting 46%?? we wont do better--thats not a position to worry about--its in good hands we should extend his contract if anything.

Im not worried about next year--Im worried about this year I think we can win now if we can add another skilled big--and if Im right why would we want to change the team so much?

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If it was about getting star players Miami would be 17-0 they arent and they wont be ever.

It sports its about team and chemistry. We have two ball dominant players Amare and Felton--that is fine becasue our other guys can get theirs in the flow without the need to dominate it.

This isnt baseball this is a team sport. There are roles there is only 1 basketball. We need another scoring big and enhancement from the bench. That way we could play with amare with Gallo at PF Thompson at PF Turriaf at C etc.. the rotation is nice--

just think about this think about the differential if we removed Mosgov and pout in Thompson and Azu--cut down minutes so guys could go harder and get good rest. thatw hat SA is doing and they are 13-1. Utah--3 bigs you need 3 bigs. we have the other pieces or most of them that are building chemsitry

Felton's irrelevant to the discussion. He's on a 2 year contract and he's movable.

Felton's irrelevant? Guys avg 18-8-4 with 2 steals and shooting 46%?? we wont do better--thats not a position to worry about--its in good hands we should extend his contract if anything.

Im not worried about next year--Im worried about this year I think we can win now if we can add another skilled big--and if Im right why would we want to change the team so much?

Let me ask you a question -- suppose the Celtics never made the deal for Kevin Garnett back in '07.. In that deal they went all in -- Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson, Theo Ratliff, Sebastian Telfair, a 2009 first round draft pick, a return of Minnesota's conditional first round draft pick previously obtained in the Ricky Davis/Wally Szczerbiak trade and cash. But let's go alternate reality here for a sec --- suppose they chose to deal off some of those assets for a support player instead (someone not of Garnett's caliber but decent) -- do they make it to the finals even with the seperate Ray Allen deal? Say they kept Jefferson out of that deal, grabbed another decent player with those other assets--nothing great but decent, say someone on Jason Thompson's level (Green still had some promise back then) and then pulled the trigger on the Ray Allen deal. Jefferson/Ray Allen/decent support player (imagine even Jason Thompson as is right now) ---> is that good enough to combine with Pierce for a couple of trips to the finals, one championship and a mainstay atop the Atlantic division, even the eastern conference to this very day? I don't know man..Al Jefferson, even before he injuried himself, was never on the Ticket's level. The Celts suspected this, went through with the deal and eventually prospered..They zeroed in on the best available player at the time, put together an enticing package of ready-to-go talent and picks and got 'er done. I'm not against doing the same thing here.

Briggs you said yourself that you're interested in winning now, right? OK then -- how is Melo not a guy that helps us win right now??? How is Carmelo Anthony along with Amar'e Stoudemire together in their prime (you can argue that Garnett & Allen weren't even in their prime when the Celtics acquired them btw) not a good enough duo to at least get us to the point where we're all talking championship? Isn't that the goal? Championship?? That would be the best duo NY has ever had since I've been following this team..Now you're talking championship level squad, just like the Celtics. I understand they also had Paul Pierce and got lucky with Rondo, 2 key players, but who's to say we can't come up with a few more decent players to help round out our team when the dusts settles? We wouldn't necessarily have that 3rd star after depleting ourselves somewhat to get Melo but so what man, not many teams do..Who says Fields couldn't be that guy eventually? The guy's playing like a 5-year vet, not a rookie; Ray Felton's playing the best ball of his entire career right now under D'Antoni (including his years at UNC), Turiaf's doing his best Kendrick Perkins impersonation, etc..I think we'd be a lot closer than some people think..I'll even go out on a limb and say that I think Amar'e/Melo would be a better duo than Garnett/Allen, even back a few years ago when the Celts made those 2 deals for these guys. At least on par with...You have to give to get in this league and I'm not afraid of going after a guy like Melo in a blockbuster deal, a guy I consider the right guy for us at the moment. I dunno man, going for it when you have an opportunity to go get a big-time player in his prime esp. when the plan is to team him up with another star also in his prime is very appealing to me. I'm not interested in waiting to see if he becomes a FA -- if Denver wants to talk anytime before the Feb deadline, I'd be very happy to listen and make them a fair offer. Then we can really start talking championship around here again. I'm all about holding onto our major assets for the big one while immediately enhancing the frontline smartly in other ways -- there's some nice FA/DL big-man talent out there right now. IMHO, that's how this team needs to be handled right now and I get the feeling that's exactly what Donnie's looking to do. Depleting our assets for middle of the road-type players is too risky & could prove very costly. It jeopardizes that particular plan..'Jeopardize' isn't even the right word, it scuttles that plan outright..

knickstorrents wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Let me ask you a question -- suppose the Celtics never made the deal for Kevin Garnett back in '07..

Are you really trying to compare Garnett to Melo?

Amare is easily comparable to KG & you can easily make a case for Melo over Paul Pierce as well... the way Felton is playing you can put him & Rondo as at least a wash as well (the year they made the trade for KG)... is Kendrick Perkins that much better than Ronny Turiaf for that matter? the only piece you're really missing is the Ray Allen 3rd option scorer, but maybe Landry Fields can become that option? or maybe a combination of Fields & Azabuike can help to fill that role for this season & u can look to fill the role using your MLE next season? the Celtics went completely all in to try & win a championship & they accomplished their goal... why can't the Knicks do the same? because we're too afraid to deal away Gallo, AR &/or Wilson Chandler? Wilson won't be here anyway if we wait to sign Melo as a FA btw... i'm not saying it's a done deal we could get Melo for those 3 guys, but for people to assume we'd have no shot at winning a championship if we made a trade to get Melo to NY i think is off base... i think trading for Melo would make the Knicks instant title contenders in the EC personally.

knickstorrents wrote:Making a contender is a marathon, not a race. You think you can shortcut to a championship by trading for Carmelo, but things are never that easy. He is dominant and that is a double edged sword. He's like Iverson in a way.

Both players needed to have teams tailor made for them in order to be successful. Right now, Melo has an elite PG, an elite rebounder who is very efficient and gets you steals (1.4 steals/game last year) and doesn't need the ball and can net you multiple possessions (Nene), another elite rebounder/shot blocker in Chris Anderson on a reasonable contract (about 4-5 mill/year), and Kenyon Martin, another strong rebounder when healthy. That team is tailor made to make up for his defense and for his inefficient scoring (though he is efficient so far this year).

Iverson had the same thing when that Sixer team went to the finals (although that team is inferior and lost 4-1 to the lakers in 2001). They had eric snow, aaron mckie, and a young raja bell as excellent perimeter defenders who did not need the ball at all, and tyrone hill, matt geiger, and dikembe mutombo for their front court, all excellent, blue collar players who did not need the ball with shotblocking from Dikembe.

If you get a player like Melo you need to have the right team for him. Felton would not work, he is more of a scoring guard. Amare doesn't rebound well enough to work with Melo. Fields would be ok as he would work with anyone.

But you get the idea. Getting a player like Melo locks you in because of his salary, and then you'd have to adjust your team to work around him. This is not fantasy basketball where you can just count up stats. This is about building a real team. Players like Fields are pure gold because they are undervalued relative to their actual value, and they are very hard to find. You hold on to players like Fields and they become untradeable pieces of your franchise.

That's my take.

But going back to those 35 frontcourt minutes--imho if you take out Mosgov who is not NBA ready put Turriaf in the third spot 10-15 minutes and add a guy like Jason Thompson or Darrel Arthur--something along those lines a guy who will produce more offensively and rebound the basketball at a higher frequency--that would be most beneficial to the team as composed.

My argument is this is a good team that lacks a third big and just a tad more consistency(and I think that is on its way if we keep the line up as is)from a couple of guys and the bench. We have two ball dominant players Felton and Amare yet we also have guys who can score who fit in well Chandler Gallo and Fields(who also dont cost 25mm per!!) if we added a Jason Thompson--our DEFENSE rebounding and offensive efficiency pick up and if Azu comes back as a guy who can give me a 12 pts 5 reb off the bench with good D then this is a whole different team

by acquiring melo it will take massive movement of players--meaning like Galo Chandler and fields out--something of that ilk and thats just stupid. Look at Miami with their 3 ball dominant players --and Bosh is NOT as ball dominant as Amare--we need Felton--who we replacing felton with?? The guy is as important to this team right now as anyone else. we really dont even have another PG!

No we dont need Melo but we do need another big who can play--those 35 + minutes are not giving us enough all around production+ Turriaf cannot handle more than a 15 minute load imho.

crzymdups wrote:We need to develop Anthony Randolph. WE NEED TO DEVELOP ANTHONY RANDOLPH.

He fills the role you are talking about, Briggs.

I don't want to trade a thing for Melo, but I would gladly sign him for the MAX this summer. Let's keep waiting. I agree with the people who say time is on our side.

If Melo doesn't work out via FA, I would target OJ Mayo and Anderson Varejao via trade.

Fields/Douglas will clearly be missed but now your talent is getting into the upper tier

BRIGGS wrote:Between Mosgov and turriaf we are getting 7 pts and 6 rebounds in 35 minutes. We also could use a little more consistency from other bench players.

But going back to those 35 frontcourt minutes--imho if you take out Mosgov who is not NBA ready put Turriaf in the third spot 10-15 minutes and add a guy like Jason Thompson or Darrel Arthur--something along those lines a guy who will produce more offensively and rebound the basketball at a higher frequency--that would be most beneficial to the team as composed.

My argument is this is a good team that lacks a third big and just a tad more consistency(and I think that is on its way if we keep the line up as is)from a couple of guys and the bench. We have two ball dominant players Felton and Amare yet we also have guys who can score who fit in well Chandler Gallo and Fields(who also dont cost 25mm per!!) if we added a Jason Thompson--our DEFENSE rebounding and offensive efficiency pick up and if Azu comes back as a guy who can give me a 12 pts 5 reb off the bench with good D then this is a whole different team

by acquiring melo it will take massive movement of players--meaning like Galo Chandler and fields out--something of that ilk and thats just stupid. Look at Miami with their 3 ball dominant players --and Bosh is NOT as ball dominant as Amare--we need Felton--who we replacing felton with?? The guy is as important to this team right now as anyone else. we really dont even have another PG!

No we dont need Melo but we do need another big who can play--those 35 + minutes are not giving us enough all around production+ Turriaf cannot handle more than a 15 minute load imho.

Maybe we should go get Early Barron? He seems to be lighting it up in phoenix.

I agree with what you've said- and its why I would now take Chris Paul with half a knee vs. Melo because Mike & Walsh have proven they can find 'pieces' that fit, and a combo of Paul & Amare is hands down, a million times better than Amare & Melo.

As far as getting a third big- I know your argument is if they are not going to use AR, trade him. But don't you think Walsh is going to want to figure out if he can indeed develop? He did put stats up, admittedly, over stretches. But that's I think fundamentally different from the stats Barron put up on our team last year.

It is a little shocking at how little production we're getting from the five spot- on the bright side, though, they are blocking shots and at times altering opponents shots.