AnubisADL wrote:

Solace wrote:Yikes. I think you're posting with an agenda in regards to continually bashing the Knicks. I am fed up reading that so many players play no defense. Apparently, there are five players in the entire league who play on defense, and everyone else takes a nap on the other side of the court, according to this board. F*cking ridiculous.

Anyway, I don't think Beasley is completely a lost cause, but for now he has enough negatives against him to be concerned. I don't know who will eventually wind up being a better piece, but the fact remains that Beasley was traded for a second rounder and a possible swap of first-rounders, while AR was the main piece in a trade for a young All-Star forward. That's a pretty immense difference. If I was offered Beasley for Randolph right now, I would turn it down. If I was offered Beasley for the same trade Minnie got, I would take it. Simple as that.

Im not hating on the Knicks. This is a thread discussing why Randolph gets to compared to a Kevin Garnett(HOF'er) while Beasley gets compared career losers.

Beasley being traded for 2nd rounders isnt indicative of his value. Miami was trying to get under the cap and no team with cap space was willing to give them cap space to sign Lebron and Bosh.

Just calling it like I see it. Saying Amare plays ZERO defense is beyond ridiculous. He's not one of the top defenders in the league, but he's above average, IMHO, and certainly an upgrade over Lee. Why take cheap shots on the best player on the team you're a fan of?

It's tough to know exactly what Beasley's value is; however, Miami was offering a #2 overall and got very little in return. The fact that there really weren't many takers (including the Knicks!) was telling, IMHO. I do agree that people on this board overrate things; for example, I think there is some talk like AR is a sure thing; I think he's far from it. However, I think you're taking it too far in the other direction; give credit where credit is due. AR could be the replacement for Marcus Camby that we've been looking for since we made that awful trade years back.

AnubisADL wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:Seems to be one of those "I wanna' pick a fight and nobody can change my opinion" posts.

The difference between them?

One was picked at # 2 and expected to be a franchise type player

That same player was thought to be a possible #1 pick

One of them was listed at 6'10" in college, measured at 6'7" at the combine, and is not a PF, but too slow to be a good SF

One of them was a pot head when he was drafted, probably smoked pot during his rookie orientation, and was still a pot head when he had to go into rehab

One of them, despite having some terrific offensive skills, could not, in 2 years, average 30 MPG on the floor with a team that cried out for a #2 go to guy to take some pressure off of the future Scheme Team leader, because he could not do the other things a good player has to do to help a team win

One of them has maturity issues and other mental problems but does not seem to care about making himself better, and at times, has not even admitted that he has problems

One of them played with a player considered one of the top players of the past decade and, seemingly, could not learn how to be a complete player despite having such a player to learn from

Not trying to pick a fight. Trying to see what the root of Beasley being considered a step below Randolph when Beasley has produced solid stats and has also shown flashes.

- How was Beasley supposed to be a franchise playing next to Wade, in his prime. He was drafted to be a Robin.

- Beasley is just as fast as other SF's in the NBA and is pushing 240lbs. Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/

- Beasley was and likely still is a pothead. However, Randolph was also considered mentally weak and showed it on the floor.

- Beasley averaged 30 MPG this season so get your facts straight.

- Beasley doesnt care about getting better but works out just as hard as Randolph in the offseason. Beasley has been working out all summer.

- So because Beasley didnt become a complete player in 2 years he is less than Randolph? Wow.

Please read what other people say before you respond to them. Some folks actually think about what they are writing and choose certain words for a reason.

You proved my first point, though, and seemingly did not understand much of what I wrote.

"Franchise type" player does not mean franchise player, but someone drafted at the #2 slot is supposed to assume the top-dog role at some point on his team.

Yeah, the 6'8" Beasley is as quick as other SFs, especially those his size. His lateral movement and attention on D are questionable- at this time his defense is inconsistent and sub-par.

I said nothing about him improving his game- I was talking about his mental approach to the game/life. I'm not sure that he is the most introspective guy, and he always seemed to defend his way of thinking and doing things.

Over his two years he did not average 30 MPG (get your facts straight), and his spotty minutes, based on performance, are well documented.

I did not really say that much about Randolph, did I. I like Randolph, a guy who should have stayed in college at least one more year, but the jury is still out on him. Beasley has a more refined offensive game but AR may just become the more valuable player on his team since he seems to have the potential to develop a more balanced game. They are both young, but I tend to think that AR has more things which he can do which make him valuable to a team than Beasley, although I doubt he will ever become the offensive player that Beasley will develop into.

The fact is that Miami is Wade's team, and he probably told management that they were not going to reach the promised land with Beasley around.

And oh yeah, I'll say once more that Beasley was the #2 pick in his draft, and considered by some before the draft to be a potential #1 pick.

Paladin55 wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:Seems to be one of those "I wanna' pick a fight and nobody can change my opinion" posts.

The difference between them?

One was picked at # 2 and expected to be a franchise type player

That same player was thought to be a possible #1 pick

One of them was listed at 6'10" in college, measured at 6'7" at the combine, and is not a PF, but too slow to be a good SF

One of them was a pot head when he was drafted, probably smoked pot during his rookie orientation, and was still a pot head when he had to go into rehab

One of them, despite having some terrific offensive skills, could not, in 2 years, average 30 MPG on the floor with a team that cried out for a #2 go to guy to take some pressure off of the future Scheme Team leader, because he could not do the other things a good player has to do to help a team win

One of them has maturity issues and other mental problems but does not seem to care about making himself better, and at times, has not even admitted that he has problems

One of them played with a player considered one of the top players of the past decade and, seemingly, could not learn how to be a complete player despite having such a player to learn from

Not trying to pick a fight. Trying to see what the root of Beasley being considered a step below Randolph when Beasley has produced solid stats and has also shown flashes.

- How was Beasley supposed to be a franchise playing next to Wade, in his prime. He was drafted to be a Robin.

- Beasley is just as fast as other SF's in the NBA and is pushing 240lbs. Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/

- Beasley was and likely still is a pothead. However, Randolph was also considered mentally weak and showed it on the floor.

- Beasley averaged 30 MPG this season so get your facts straight.

- Beasley doesnt care about getting better but works out just as hard as Randolph in the offseason. Beasley has been working out all summer.

- So because Beasley didnt become a complete player in 2 years he is less than Randolph? Wow.

Please read what other people say before you respond to them. Some folks actually think about what they are writing and choose certain words for a reason.

You proved my first point, though, and seemingly did not understand much of what I wrote.

"Franchise type" player does not mean franchise player, but someone drafted at the #2 slot is supposed to assume the top-dog role at some point on his team.

Yeah, the 6'8" Beasley is as quick as other SFs, especially those his size. His lateral movement and attention on D are questionable- at this time his defense is inconsistent and sub-par.

I said nothing about him improving his game- I was talking about his mental approach to the game/life. I'm not sure that he is the most introspective guy, and he always seemed to defend his way of thinking and doing things.

Over his two years he did not average 30 MPG (get your facts straight), and his spotty minutes, based on performance, are well documented.

I did not really say that much about Randolph, did I. I like Randolph, a guy who should have stayed in college at least one more year, but the jury is still out on him. Beasley has a more refined offensive game but AR may just become the more valuable player on his team since he seems to have the potential to develop a more balanced game. They are both young, but I tend to think that AR has more things which he can do which make him valuable to a team than Beasley, although I doubt he will ever become the offensive player that Beasley will develop into.

The fact is that Miami is Wade's team, and he probably told management that they were not going to reach the promised land with Beasley around.

And oh yeah, I'll say once more that Beasley was the #2 pick in his draft, and considered by some before the draft to be a potential #1 pick.

I can read just fine. You stated incorrect info and I called you out on it and now you are backtracking.

- You stated Beasley was too slow to be a good SF. Now you try to say he has poor lateral "movement".

- You stated Beasley didn't average 30 minutes per game and now you want to play semantics. You are right though. Beasley's COMBINED Rookie and Sophomore MPG did not average 30 minutes, it was 27 minutes. So because Miami didnt play him 30 minutes per game as a rookie that is suppose to be a knock on him? He earned more minutes his 2nd year. He still put up great stats in limited minutes.

- You stated Beasley didnt admit he had a problem yet you have no idea what he has admitted too. Fact remains he attended rehab last summer and what happened there has remained private.

- So Beasley being traded to make room for Lebron and Bosh means he wont reach his potential or is lacking potential? Miami's primary goal was not to develop Beasley. Their goal was to appease the star they already have in Wade.

- Beasley being drafted #2 just means he should be better than the guys drafted after him.

AnubisADL wrote:
I can read just fine. You stated incorrect info and I called you out on it and now you are backtracking.

- You stated Beasley was too slow to be a good SF. Now you try to say he has poor lateral "movement".

- You stated Beasley didn't average 30 minutes per game and now you want to play semantics. You are right though. Beasley's COMBINED Rookie and Sophomore MPG did not average 30 minutes, it was 27 minutes. So because Miami didnt play him 30 minutes per game as a rookie that is suppose to be a knock on him? He earned more minutes his 2nd year. He still put up great stats in limited minutes.

- You stated Beasley didnt admit he had a problem yet you have no idea what he has admitted too. Fact remains he attended rehab last summer and what happened there has remained private.

- So Beasley being traded to make room for Lebron and Bosh means he wont reach his potential or is lacking potential? Miami's primary goal was not to develop Beasley. Their goal was to appease the star they already have in Wade.

- Beasley being drafted #2 just means he should be better than the guys drafted after him.

Once again:
Seems to be one of those "I wanna' pick a fight and nobody can change my opinion" posts.

Keep on living in that world of yours where Beasley had a successful two years with the Heat, played wonderful defense, did not have inconsistent minutes on the floor because of how he played, was not traded for nothing to the Timberwolves, did not show major maturity deficiencies, lived up to all the hype and potential, did not have to spend extended time in rehab (and flipped out because of it), and has lived up to his draft position.

Has he been worthy of a number two selection? Do you think that Minnesota, or any team for that matter, would have given up a legitimate player in a trade for Beasley? The guy still has a lot of potential to be a good scorer in the NBA, but he also has to the potential to be another Chris Washburn or Roy Tarpley.

Paladin55 wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:
I can read just fine. You stated incorrect info and I called you out on it and now you are backtracking.

- You stated Beasley was too slow to be a good SF. Now you try to say he has poor lateral "movement".

- You stated Beasley didn't average 30 minutes per game and now you want to play semantics. You are right though. Beasley's COMBINED Rookie and Sophomore MPG did not average 30 minutes, it was 27 minutes. So because Miami didnt play him 30 minutes per game as a rookie that is suppose to be a knock on him? He earned more minutes his 2nd year. He still put up great stats in limited minutes.

- You stated Beasley didnt admit he had a problem yet you have no idea what he has admitted too. Fact remains he attended rehab last summer and what happened there has remained private.

- So Beasley being traded to make room for Lebron and Bosh means he wont reach his potential or is lacking potential? Miami's primary goal was not to develop Beasley. Their goal was to appease the star they already have in Wade.

- Beasley being drafted #2 just means he should be better than the guys drafted after him.

Once again:
Seems to be one of those "I wanna' pick a fight and nobody can change my opinion" posts.

Keep on living in that world of yours where Beasley had a successful two years with the Heat, played wonderful defense, did not have inconsistent minutes on the floor because of how he played, was not traded for nothing to the Timberwolves, did not show major maturity deficiencies, lived up to all the hype and potential, did not have to spend extended time in rehab (and flipped out because of it), and has lived up to his draft position.

Has he been worthy of a number two selection? Do you think that Minnesota, or any team for that matter, would have given up a legitimate player in a trade for Beasley? The guy still has a lot of potential to be a good scorer in the NBA, but he also has to the potential to be another Chris Washburn or Roy Tarpley.

Seems you came into this thread to pick a fight.

- The only guys that may have deserved to be selected before Beasley are Russel Westbrook and Brook Lopez and thats debatable. Westbrook plays with Durant and Lopez plays on a team that won 12 games. Who else in the 2008 NBA Draft currently deserves to be selected 2nd?

- Made zero sense for Minnesota to give up anything when they were one of the few teams with cap space that werent in the 2010 free agent hunt. The Thunder didnt need Beasley because of that guy Durant. So please enlighten me on what team with cap space was going to absorb Beasley's contract and give Miami a helping hand? Obviously the terms of the deal with Minny was agreed upon BEFORE it was announced otherwise how could Lebron and Bosh sign there?

To complete the trade, Minnesota must only part with a 2011 second-round pick to acquire Beasley. The teams have also agreed to a swap of unspecified future first-round picks.

As ESPN.com reported earlier Thursday, Miami was previously working on a four-team trade that would have turned the Heat's acquisition of Chris Bosh into a sign-and-trade with the Toronto Raptors while also sending Beasley to the Charlotte Bobcats. The Houston Rockets were also involved in that deal, which called for the Rockets to ship swingman Jared Jeffries to Charlotte and take back Bobcats center Tyson Chandler.

The Raptors, though, have held firm all week on their determination to participate in a Bosh sign-and-trade only if they have to take back draft picks, while also creating a large trade exception through Bosh's departure. The four-way proposal, which was introduced Wednesday, would have required Toronto to take back at least $3.1 million in contracts from Houston, which the Raptors were unwilling to do.

The Heat and Raptors have been exchanging sign-and-trade proposals for the past two days since Bosh and Dwyane Wade committed Wednesday to signing with the Heat in a package deal. Now that the Heat are no longer asking Toronto to take back Beasley, sources say that a Bosh sign-and-trade that could net him a six-year deal as opposed to a five-year deal is likely to go through by week's end, with Toronto getting the package (draft considerations and a trade exception) it wanted from the start.

Source: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5365794

Solace wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:- Made zero sense for Minnesota to give up anything when they were one of the few teams with cap space that werent in the 2010 free agent hunt. The Thunder didnt need Beasley because of that guy Durant. So please enlighten me on what team with cap space was going to absorb Beasley's contract and give Miami a helping hand? Obviously the terms of the deal with Minny was agreed upon BEFORE it was announced otherwise how could Lebron and Bosh sign there?

Sorry, but this is revisionist history. Beasley was traded to make room for Mike Miller, AFAIK, not LeBron or Bosh. Miller is making $5 million this year and Beasley was just a hair under $5 million. If they didn't make the trade, they don't get Mike Miller. The fact that they thought Mike Miller was more valuable to their team than the #2 overall pick, is again, telling. The three amigos took the amounts they did to afford a fourth non-min player; otherwise Miami was much closer to maxing out all three.

You are right, Miami did make room JUST to sign Mike Miller. Mike Miller and Lebron appear to be buddies though. Who knows maybe they were a package deal.

Miller agreed to a five-year deal with the Heat on Monday and is expected to sign his contract Thursday. One of the reasons for the holdup was that forward Michael Beasley, traded by the Heat last week, needed to get to Minnesota to complete his physical and clear his $4.9 million salary off Miami's slate of contracts.

During an interview with a Memphis radio station Wednesday, Miller said he was ``waiting on one thing'' to get done before he finalizes his contract.
``I'm excited about it,'' Miller told the station. ``It's a good opportunity.''

Source: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/07/15/1731107/mike-miller-in-miami-plans-to.html

As James explained last season, "Mike is a good friend of mine. He named his son after my best friend, Maverick (Carter). We have a good history."

Source: http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-07-12/sports/sfl-miami-heat-mike-miller-s071120_1_lebron-james-heat-logo-prime-offseason-acquisition

Mike Miller had talks with LeBron James during the NBA Finals about free agency, and the reigning two-time MVP had a simple message for one of the league's best shooters.

"Sit tight," James told Miller.

Miller
So Miller waited to see what James would do -- and now is on the cusp of joining him in Miami.

Miller arrived in South Florida on Wednesday and told Memphis radio station WHBQ that he would sign his five-year contract by his scheduled departure on Thursday. Miller agreed in principle to a deal late last week, and his agent Arn Tellem revealed Monday that the sharpshooter would be signing with Miami.

Source: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5380556

AnubisADL wrote:You are right, Miami did make room JUST to sign Mike Miller. Mike Miller and Lebron appear to be buddies though. Who knows maybe they were a package deal.

Miller agreed to a five-year deal with the Heat on Monday and is expected to sign his contract Thursday. One of the reasons for the holdup was that forward Michael Beasley, traded by the Heat last week, needed to get to Minnesota to complete his physical and clear his $4.9 million salary off Miami's slate of contracts.

During an interview with a Memphis radio station Wednesday, Miller said he was ``waiting on one thing'' to get done before he finalizes his contract.
``I'm excited about it,'' Miller told the station. ``It's a good opportunity.''

Source: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/07/15/1731107/mike-miller-in-miami-plans-to.html

As James explained last season, "Mike is a good friend of mine. He named his son after my best friend, Maverick (Carter). We have a good history."

Source: http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-07-12/sports/sfl-miami-heat-mike-miller-s071120_1_lebron-james-heat-logo-prime-offseason-acquisition

Mike Miller had talks with LeBron James during the NBA Finals about free agency, and the reigning two-time MVP had a simple message for one of the league's best shooters.

"Sit tight," James told Miller.

Miller
So Miller waited to see what James would do -- and now is on the cusp of joining him in Miami.

Miller arrived in South Florida on Wednesday and told Memphis radio station WHBQ that he would sign his five-year contract by his scheduled departure on Thursday. Miller agreed in principle to a deal late last week, and his agent Arn Tellem revealed Monday that the sharpshooter would be signing with Miami.

Source: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5380556

Ok, good, at least you acknowledge that. I think it's speculation, at best, to say they were a package deal, especially since the deal was not confirmed until after LeBron already signed. There's zero chance that LeBron is not still on the Heat if they don't trade Beasley. At any rate, though, to me, here's the clincher: Would you trade AR for the package Minnie got? Would you trade AR for Mike Miller? If the answer to both questions is no, then I think a fair conclusion would be is that Beasley's value is lower than you would have expected for a #2 overall at this point, because that's basically what happened. Agree? I think that answers your initial question, about what the difference is: how they are currently valued. Beasley can still wind up being the better player, but there's enough negatives that we can reasonably be concerned about the team that took him being the Minnesota Young Player Dumping Ground Wolves. Not a great start.

Allanfan20 wrote:Yo this i s the botto m fokuching line. Why the ****inging a are we talking about michael beasley. FDude// Watch how he plays. He fokoking sooks/. Trust me on this. I am better than michael fooing beaskley.

Please put down the bong. While you're at it, maybe convince Beasley to put his down, too. Then he might start to realize some of that hoops potential he clearly has in abundance.

FWIW, I was STOKED about landing AR, whose upside does not seem to have any limit as far as I can tell. I would have been non-plus'd to get Beasley. Still, that mofo is going to develop his game, and he is going to be a solid player at least on offense.