scoshin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:
Donnie Walsh offers the contracts. D'Antoni decides who see's floor time.

:cough: Darko :cough:

A lot of the reason for MDA not going deep is that there wasn't a lot of depth on his teams here on in PHX. Once we started stripping the team to save cap, the bench really didn't have a lot to offer. Sure you could just play guys but that wouldn't help win games. Now the team is full of players that can actually contribute if called upon. There would be more justification for going 9 deep and 10 on occasion. Depth is a good thing, but it's not everything.

A couple of points in regards to not using the bench. The team started out 1-9, they were not winning anything the way D'Antoni used the bench. The team won 29 games and some of the guys that were sitting were rookies including a lottery pick. The excuse that the bench wasn't being used because they couldn't help the team win games doesn't fly. I hope D'Antoni uses his bench next year and develops guys but past practice even when his team was losing at an incredibly high rate, he chose not to play his young guys or go to his bench.

I recall D'Antoni specifically saying he likes to keep his rotation short, 7-8 man, because it gives clear defined roles and players don't have to look over their shoulder to the 9th and 10th man. What I don't get though is if the guy likes to run and play uptempo, why not use our depth and keep our legs fresher than the opponents?

D'Antoni can be really stubborn about his short rotation. The 8th man in the rotation would still get a good 15-20 minutes, but the 9th would get none. So when Hughes or Nate didn't work out, they went from getting decent time to riding the bench all game.

Markji wrote:I'd rather have a shooting guard who can shoot.

If MDA would use a 9 man rotation, we could use Shannon Brown. But he doesn't. By using a short rotation and an uptempo offense, the team that gets tired is us, not the other team who substitutes more.

A question: If you were Shannon Brown, would you want to re-sign with the Champion Lakers Team and live/play in LA or come to the Knicks who have been disfunctional for the entire decade. Yes, we are rebuilding, but we aren't there yet.

Markji, I was just thinking why Donnie would want to add another two. Wilson, Azibuike, Walker, Fields, Rautens and Douglas all play the two. I think he's expecting to trade one of more of the above, once their eligible to be traded. Should that happen, it might be useful to have Brown to take some of the minutes of the traded players.

Briggs, why do you think Brown can play the point effectively?

Markji wrote:I'd rather have a shooting guard who can shoot.

If MDA would use a 9 man rotation, we could use Shannon Brown. But he doesn't. By using a short rotation and an uptempo offense, the team that gets tired is us, not the other team who substitutes more.

A question: If you were Shannon Brown, would you want to re-sign with the Champion Lakers Team and live/play in LA or come to the Knicks who have been disfunctional for the entire decade. Yes, we are rebuilding, but we aren't there yet.

Mark--I am open to the Knicks enhancing their bench--maybe that means more than 1 move. Am I in love with Toney Douglas? No Who do we really love coming off the bench--I mean there are pieces--but if the knicks start bringing in a Fernandez--Brown to go with Azubukie--I think it may be a little better and more proven.

BRIGGS wrote:

Markji wrote:I'd rather have a shooting guard who can shoot.

If MDA would use a 9 man rotation, we could use Shannon Brown. But he doesn't. By using a short rotation and an uptempo offense, the team that gets tired is us, not the other team who substitutes more.

A question: If you were Shannon Brown, would you want to re-sign with the Champion Lakers Team and live/play in LA or come to the Knicks who have been disfunctional for the entire decade. Yes, we are rebuilding, but we aren't there yet.

Mark--I am open to the Knicks enhancing their bench--maybe that means more than 1 move. Am I in love with Toney Douglas? No Who do we really love coming off the bench--I mean there are pieces--but if the knicks start bringing in a Fernandez--Brown to go with Azubukie--I think it may be a little better and more proven.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:The reason why the short rotation is used by coaches, not just MDA is because you get your best players on the floor for longer and that usually means better play. When I said that the bench wasn't really deep on PHX or NY, that is a fact and is part of the reason, tho as was noted not ALL of the reason why MDA went with short rotations. He and other coaches that like the short rotation, like predictability. They like knowing what to expect from the players they run out there. There's this idea that stretching a few more players into the mix somehow leads to wins. That really can't be proven, since few coaches won more than MDA did when he was using those short rotations in PHX. Getting to the WCF's twice they didn't lose cuz starters were tired and they wouldn't have won if they only played the 9th or 10th guy in the playoff series.

We'll see if MDA makes more use of 9th or 10th guy. I would guess that he'll likely go with about 9 guys given our depth. that 9th guy can get more solid minutes if not shared with a 10th guy. I actually am in favor of shorter rotations. Not 7 man but 8-9 is enough on a regular basis.

I guess I am trying to figure out how Bender, Duhon, and Jeffries fit into the better players category. When you consider that they were expiring contracts and not a part of the future, playing those guys and not giving the lottery pick and other first round pick any minutes doesn't make a lot of sense. Going 1-9 out of camp and winning 29 games certainly do not enhance the argument that the young guys shouldn't have played because the vets that were gone at the end of the season were busy losing a lot of games for a team without a first round pick. The logic might fit other situations but not the one that faced D'Antoni. Its time for that big grin that appears whenever a superstar runs by him during a route of his team to disappear. He needs to coach and not mail it in.

1st of all the last two years were never about winning with a team you intended to actually move forward with, so it's a bit of a different situation from normal. Normally you have a team on the floor that you are trying to win with and not looking for deals to actually trade most of them away. That said, Duhon was the ONLY true PG we had and when he did actually play well, the results were clearly positive. Bender was basically a coaching decision based on what he felt he could get with a guy his size with his range and the GM also wanted to see if he was worth keeping around. You can't learn that without playing him some minutes.

Jeffries actually played well for this team and was a factor in the short period in which this team played better defense. The only players that you can really bring up in this argument are Hill and TD. Both did play and really there's no evidence that they would've been the difference in this team winning more games or not. All that can be argued is that they may have gotten a bit more experience. So what. Hill was flipped into better talent and DW knew that was going to be the case, so there's no real loss there. You take an asset and hopefully turn that into an even more valuable one.

Now as for this team, I think MDA will do what has been successful for him in the past. If that doesn't work then I can understand him moving away from it at some point, but he's had success with shorter rotations. How can that be argued. He's not even the 1st coach to use this concept. It's worked to the tune of 50+ wins and I think he's comfortable with it and knows what he's going to get.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:The reason why the short rotation is used by coaches, not just MDA is because you get your best players on the floor for longer and that usually means better play. When I said that the bench wasn't really deep on PHX or NY, that is a fact and is part of the reason, tho as was noted not ALL of the reason why MDA went with short rotations. He and other coaches that like the short rotation, like predictability. They like knowing what to expect from the players they run out there. There's this idea that stretching a few more players into the mix somehow leads to wins. That really can't be proven, since few coaches won more than MDA did when he was using those short rotations in PHX. Getting to the WCF's twice they didn't lose cuz starters were tired and they wouldn't have won if they only played the 9th or 10th guy in the playoff series.

We'll see if MDA makes more use of 9th or 10th guy. I would guess that he'll likely go with about 9 guys given our depth. that 9th guy can get more solid minutes if not shared with a 10th guy. I actually am in favor of shorter rotations. Not 7 man but 8-9 is enough on a regular basis.

I guess I am trying to figure out how Bender, Duhon, and Jeffries fit into the better players category. When you consider that they were expiring contracts and not a part of the future, playing those guys and not giving the lottery pick and other first round pick any minutes doesn't make a lot of sense. Going 1-9 out of camp and winning 29 games certainly do not enhance the argument that the young guys shouldn't have played because the vets that were gone at the end of the season were busy losing a lot of games for a team without a first round pick. The logic might fit other situations but not the one that faced D'Antoni. Its time for that big grin that appears whenever a superstar runs by him during a route of his team to disappear. He needs to coach and not mail it in.

1st of all the last two years were never about winning with a team you intended to actually move forward with, so it's a bit of a different situation from normal. Normally you have a team on the floor that you are trying to win with and not looking for deals to actually trade most of them away. That said, Duhon was the ONLY true PG we had and when he did actually play well, the results were clearly positive. Bender was basically a coaching decision based on what he felt he could get with a guy his size with his range and the GM also wanted to see if he was worth keeping around. You can't learn that without playing him some minutes.

Jeffries actually played well for this team and was a factor in the short period in which this team played better defense. The only players that you can really bring up in this argument are Hill and TD. Both did play and really there's no evidence that they would've been the difference in this team winning more games or not. All that can be argued is that they may have gotten a bit more experience. So what. Hill was flipped into better talent and DW knew that was going to be the case, so there's no real loss there. You take an asset and hopefully turn that into an even more valuable one.

Now as for this team, I think MDA will do what has been successful for him in the past. If that doesn't work then I can understand him moving away from it at some point, but he's had success with shorter rotations. How can that be argued. He's not even the 1st coach to use this concept. It's worked to the tune of 50+ wins and I think he's comfortable with it and knows what he's going to get.

I really think the coach decided to go with guys that didn't need mentoring and coaching. Duhon was the only true point guard but if you go back and look at all the dnps Douglas got until Walsh traveled with the team to evaluate the roster and coaches in March it doesn't make sense. If you are coaching a rebuilding team with its sights on the 10-11 season how do you play Bender over Hill, especially when the team didn't even own its draft pick? Also, Jeffries is a good role player but his value wasn't built up by the minutes he was given. How many times daily do you read that the Knicks can't make a trade because the next pick they can trade is 2014? If you think D'Antoni is a good coach I think you have to admit that he mailed it in last year and you are hoping that he is refreshed and ready to teach, mentor and communicate with this group of players. D'Antoni tries to present as a very laid back, easy going guy, but he has been extremely rigid as the Knick coach. His struggles with communication have also hurt the Knicks franchise up to this point.

Now as a comparison, think about how players he had in the past took to what he was doing. Bell, Diaw, Q etc. all did well and found roles in his system that suited them well. If MDA was not a superior coach players like those guys who really hadn't fully established a great body of work, would not have looked so good while playing for him.

OK so MDA is not the guy that's gonna mess around and waste time blowing kisses to his players. He's expects them to be pros and have a sense of pride in what they do. He'll take care of the rest. The guys we brought in are self driven and that was by design. DW and MDA know what winning players attitudes should be like and I think they've gone after those types of guys. You don't wanna waste time trying to convince guys to play the way they should already want to be playing. I'm the same way in what I look for in my employees. I will spend time and teach when I see it's someone with drive and passion for what they do. That's what I respond to and I believe MDA is the same way.

nyk4ever wrote:i dont know why people are so mad at this. shannon brown is an athletic freak and played an integral part off the bench for the champs.. how can you go wrong?

no one's mad about it.

2. Only one guy isn't here and if he was that amazing he'd still be here. DW and MDA both decided that the pick wasn't worth keeping when weighed against the cap space moving him and Jared would open up. We ended up with better prospects, which is the whole point. TD is still here and developing. Players don't develop in game action, they develop in practice and over the offseason. In game action you show what you've learned from all that practice and training. if Hill got 15 mins per game instead of 10 he'd still be at the same level of development, he'd just have bigger stats which might make it seem like he was better, but really he's not. Hill should have a nice career but he's nothing to lose sleep over.

3. Barron shows that guys that know hoe to play can execute what MDA is coaching and when you do it can make you look really good. Don't try to give Riley credit for that. There's tons of evidence that similar jumps in production have been experienced by other Barron types under MDA. If this was the only guy to every look good in his system that would be one thing, but he's done it before.

4. Game planning in the regular season, when you have short turn arounds and back to backs, is a myth. You can only prep so much. MDA won 62 games proving that teams couldn't adjust in season. IF not for the B.S. hack job by the Spurs, he could easily have won a title by now. All that supposed lack of gameplanning and he was in the WCF's, so clearly that's not the deterrent you're making it out to be. Like any other coach, if you give him a good team he's gonna look good.

nixluva wrote:1. MDA did a bad job with a team that needed everything to go right to reach .500. Everything didn't go right and on a team like that, it gets ugly real fast and makes good coaches look bad. ex. LB, Doc, Skiles etc.

Glad you are admitting MDA did a bad job last year.

nixluva wrote:2. Only one guy isn't here and if he was that amazing he'd still be here. DW and MDA both decided that the pick wasn't worth keeping when weighed against the cap space moving him and Jared would open up. We ended up with better prospects, which is the whole point. TD is still here and developing. Players don't develop in game action, they develop in practice and over the offseason. In game action you show what you've learned from all that practice and training. if Hill got 15 mins per game instead of 10 he'd still be at the same level of development, he'd just have bigger stats which might make it seem like he was better, but really he's not. Hill should have a nice career but he's nothing to lose sleep over.

I think the point about Jordan Hill not playing is that maybe if he had, Walsh wouldn't be bent over and asked for the other draft picks that we included in the deal. Maybe if MDA had been able to work his magic and make Hill look like the next Amare, we would have only had to include one pick with Hill to dump JJ, and not the two that we have.

Could the Knicks be promising him much more playing time, AND more $$?

alphamale33 wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:I think that when LA gets done with their off season shuffling- they will resign Brown. Not sure why he would leave a 20 MPG role with the Lakers that has got him 2 rings for a backup role on the Knicks, perhaps for a little more $$.

Could the Knicks be promising him much more playing time, AND more $$?

HE AINT GETTIN 20MPG BOSS.

Fisheer needs atleast 25, Kobe 35+, Baarnes atleast 15, Blake atleast 15, , that only leaves 11 or so minutes. N shi*t, that's conservative too dudde.

Face it, no one wants Vucacic and his 5 million dollar buyout. So htey'll hold onto him, and let Brown go, or S&T him for some ****ty 2nd round pick.... IF Brown thinks he can get himseelf some 6 yr. / 15-20 mill. deal, then good for him. But it aint happenin in LA man. NY could use him, but again, only for like a 2-3 year deal on the up side of 3+ mill. a year. Kinda like how we fenagled Duhon away.....shortterm overpayin......needded em tho......

Just going by the what he got last year. Barnes' minutes will also come from Artest, I would think, and Blake will take some from Fisher, but you also have the 18MPG Farmar was getting last year. Don't think Powell is around, and they are trying to dump Vujacic. Add to that the need to give Kobe more and more minutes off as he ages, with the same being true for artest. There may just be enough minutes available for Brown to get close to his 20MPG total.

Rk  	Player  	Age  	G  	GS  	MP  	
1 	Kobe Bryant 	31 	73 	73 	38.8 		
2 	Pau Gasol 	29 	65 	65 	37.0 		
3 	Andrew Bynum 	22 	65 	65 	30.4 		
4 	Ron Artest 	30 	77 	77 	33.8 		
5 	Lamar Odom 	30 	82 	38 	31.5 	
6 	Shannon Brown 	24 	82 	7 	20.7  	
7 	Derek Fisher 	35 	82 	82 	27.2 	
8 	Jordan Farmar 	23 	82 	0 	18.0  	
9 	Sasha Vujacic 	25 	67 	1 	8.6 	
10 	Josh Powell 	27 	63 	0 	9.2  	
11 	Adam Morrison 	25 	31 	0 	7.8  	
12 	Luke Walton 	29 	29 	0 	9.4  	
13 	Mbenga 	        29 	49 	0       2 

I don't want to overpay for Brown anway- he has never proven he is more than a 15-20 MPG player at this point, although he was pretty productive with LA last year. Is he even a better player than a healthy Azubuike?

Again- what kind of role are the Knicks promising him?