nixluva wrote:

sidsanders wrote:later round picks are what you make of them. no one says you have to find elite talent in later picks/round 2. the picks are at your disposal to find some parts you may need where you dont have as much to worry about since draft picks most of the time dont have as many options as fa's do.

as you noted, the current path taken must include elite talent or walsh is gonna have some .... interesting times.

It's clear that DW's Plan A, B & C is gonna include Elite talent signings. He will tho have another crack at it in 2011. This is a TWO year movement. The Knicks want Elite talent and have waged everything for the chance to land some. It may end up that we miss the plan A FA's, but I think they're gonna go after others and then look at 2011 or a deal to use Curry's contract to add more Elite talent. They're going for Title Contention talent and nothing else, otherwise they could've held on to Hill and the picks and maybe looked to by more picks and went young.

just cuz they leveraged themselves like this doesnt mean its gonna end well. they have to hope the main targets want to sign here. i wish i had better insight into this cuz it feels like they have no escape route in case they cant get any top tier FA's. kinda feels like the financial mess, too much leverage on the hopes of certain events occurring and if they dont....

sidsanders wrote:

nixluva wrote:

sidsanders wrote:later round picks are what you make of them. no one says you have to find elite talent in later picks/round 2. the picks are at your disposal to find some parts you may need where you dont have as much to worry about since draft picks most of the time dont have as many options as fa's do.

as you noted, the current path taken must include elite talent or walsh is gonna have some .... interesting times.

It's clear that DW's Plan A, B & C is gonna include Elite talent signings. He will tho have another crack at it in 2011. This is a TWO year movement. The Knicks want Elite talent and have waged everything for the chance to land some. It may end up that we miss the plan A FA's, but I think they're gonna go after others and then look at 2011 or a deal to use Curry's contract to add more Elite talent. They're going for Title Contention talent and nothing else, otherwise they could've held on to Hill and the picks and maybe looked to by more picks and went young.

just cuz they leveraged themselves like this doesnt mean its gonna end well. they have to hope the main targets want to sign here. i wish i had better insight into this cuz it feels like they have no escape route in case they cant get any top tier FA's. kinda feels like the financial mess, too much leverage on the hopes of certain events occurring and if they dont....

There is no doubt that the Knicks have taken a risk. The question remains, is the risk worth it? There are 2 guys that can carry teams to a Championship all by themselves - Wade, LeBron. There are a bunch of secondary guys - Amare, Bosh, Johnson.

This would be a unique year to have salary cap room. No doubt Jerry West took a huge risk when Shaq was coming off his contract in Orlando too.

There are a few escape routes - trades and such - and also signings plus next years crop with Curry coming off.

martin wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

nixluva wrote:

sidsanders wrote:later round picks are what you make of them. no one says you have to find elite talent in later picks/round 2. the picks are at your disposal to find some parts you may need where you dont have as much to worry about since draft picks most of the time dont have as many options as fa's do.

as you noted, the current path taken must include elite talent or walsh is gonna have some .... interesting times.

It's clear that DW's Plan A, B & C is gonna include Elite talent signings. He will tho have another crack at it in 2011. This is a TWO year movement. The Knicks want Elite talent and have waged everything for the chance to land some. It may end up that we miss the plan A FA's, but I think they're gonna go after others and then look at 2011 or a deal to use Curry's contract to add more Elite talent. They're going for Title Contention talent and nothing else, otherwise they could've held on to Hill and the picks and maybe looked to by more picks and went young.

just cuz they leveraged themselves like this doesnt mean its gonna end well. they have to hope the main targets want to sign here. i wish i had better insight into this cuz it feels like they have no escape route in case they cant get any top tier FA's. kinda feels like the financial mess, too much leverage on the hopes of certain events occurring and if they dont....

There is no doubt that the Knicks have taken a risk. The question remains, is the risk worth it? There are 2 guys that can carry teams to a Championship all by themselves - Wade, LeBron. There are a bunch of secondary guys - Amare, Bosh, Johnson.

This would be a unique year to have salary cap room. No doubt Jerry West took a huge risk when Shaq was coming off his contract in Orlando too.

There are a few escape routes - trades and such - and also signings plus next years crop with Curry coming off.

risk is worth it if they land a prime target. i said it the night of the tmac trade, none of this matters if lbj signs -- risk will be worth it. we end up with joe j and lee resigned... yuk in my view.

to me just having the option of 2 max guys and getting none cant be a good thing. had we been in the same position without having to make so many trades/moves, then the risk taken on is of course lower and missing out isnt so bad.

hard to quantify the risk in west going after shaq. i dont recall la's env and what type of heat he was/wasnt getting. im tryin to look up what he may have unloaded and having a hard time finding it. it seems like west scored big not only with shaq, he got kobe in a draft day trade, fisher in the draft, horry in a trade. that would be $$$$ if walsh can get lbj and some other parts like this and we go on a run like the lakers had.

Solace wrote:

TMS wrote:the notion that u have to be absolutely horrible to build through the draft is a crock & has been proven year after year... there is star talent that can be had anywhere in the 1st & sometimes the 2nd round every year... the teams that do the best job of researching & scouting talent & also BUILDING UP that talent after they're drafted are able to utilize the draft most effectively... the teams that waste their draft picks year after year & fail to develop their talent don't

How many teams have won the title by drafting a player when they weren't one of the 5 or 6 worst teams in the league? The main exception that comes to mind off the top of my head is Kobe Bryant, but I don't think letting a player like him slip to 13 is something that will happen again; at the time it was taboo to draft a player right out of high school with a high pick, but not anymore.

I 100% agree that you can get good players. But is your goal good players or championships?

Kobe drafted 13th he won a chip as the main piece may win another

Detroit won a chip with no players of their own drafted in the Top 5 except Rasheed who traded to the team late

Boston won a chip with Paul Pierce carrying them in the Finals he was drafted like 10th(yes K.G. and Allen came but still)

You could even argue having Lottery Picks on your team puts the team in a better bargaining position to acquire talent even if they lose a little bit along the way.

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:trading Jordan Hill & our next 2 1st round picks for Rudy Gay & Ray Felton? eeesh... let's pray that's not even an option at this point.

This would be only to add some talent while keeping cap space for 2011 etc. It's not about just this summer.

the trade for T-Mac was absolutely all about this summer... how can you reason it otherwise when we traded away our picks in '11 & '12 to get it done?

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:trading Jordan Hill & our next 2 1st round picks for Rudy Gay & Ray Felton? eeesh... let's pray that's not even an option at this point.

This would be only to add some talent while keeping cap space for 2011 etc. It's not about just this summer.

the trade for T-Mac was absolutely all about this summer... how can you reason it otherwise when we traded away our picks in '11 & '12 to get it done?

We traded one pick.

I know it sounds good to say we traded two or three...but...we traded ONE.

Houston can win 50 games next year and NOT make the playoffs. We can win 40 and MAKE the playoffs. That happens? NO 2011 Pick Swap.

But, well, it sounds all good to trash the Knicks and claim they traded 3 picks and a future hall of famer in Jordan Hill. lol. So, have at it.

It also sounds good to make up totally fictional scenarios. Show me the last time a 50 win team did not make the playoffs.

Panos wrote:

nixluva wrote:Look it doesn't matter about the 2011 pick! We won't be looking to the draft to add Elite talent. This is why I mentioned both this FA class and the 2011 class as part of the process. Now DW could get it done before the 2011 FA but if not we have that card to play to further improve the team. There is no doomsday scenario as some would try to frame it. We will continue to have options to improve the team outside of the picks.

Because you say so.
And let me add that your record of "sayings-so" is not pretty.

Another one with the record thing. This has nothing to do with preseason predictions. I might add That the team failed to meet just about everyones expectations not just mine. Anyway you tell me what is it you really expect we'd get with that 2011 pick that would preclude us from using it to make the deal for cap space?

Cosmic---I think you can improve the team many ways--discounting the draft its like saying let me paint .67 of a picture. If you get an impact player out of the draft or even 1-2 good players--well that is a piece of the puzzle. We have cap space and that is important to. I don't know if one absolutely trumps the other long term. It's like saying we drafted that scrub Kobe at 13 and we signed Allan Houston with our cap space. ???????????

TMS wrote:if we don't get Lebron, Bosh, Wade or Amare this summer, how has DW improved the foundations of this franchise for the long term exactly? because he drafted Gallo & TD? are those guys going to be the cornerstones of our franchise for the coming decade? not owning our draft picks for the next 2 drafts doesn't put this franchise in a good position at all if we miss out on the bigname FA's this summer.

You're kidding, right? DW has finally brought full cap flexibility to a franchise that hasn't seen that promised land for a decade+. Cap flexibility is one of the key foundations to building a successful - long-term successful - franchise. The others being talent, coaching, and some luck. We can argue about the current (lack of) talent, though Gallo and TD were great picks, Bill Walker a potential steal. And on the coaching front, you're either on the D'antoni boat or not, though my guess is the players that play the game like the guy. And this counts for a lot.