DurzoBlint wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Lee has been very outspoken about improving defensively. If you havent heard him say that you have chosen not to listen. Simple fact is Lee was NOT a good offensive player and did not have any legit offensive skills to build on when he came into the league. He was a garbage hustle guy who your happy to get at pick 30. Since then he's improved his passing, shooting, handle and post moves to the point where he became an all star. Thats everything you hope for in a guy you draft. Thats a self made guy, and he did it though some of the worst management and coaching and sports history.

But who cares about signing your own guy when you can over pay for someone else's star who leads his team to 35 wins a year?

If Lebron wants to come to NY great. The self importance these guys possess is mind boggling

Exactly, and now there saying in so many words, that in order for LBJ to play for the knicks they would need to sign bosh or amare..Im certain that lee will be better then bosh when all is said and done...

I'm not taking anything away from Bosh because he is a great player, but for any super star ( especially a guy like james who has a hell've a work ethic, to not see the potential in LEE and his work ethic, is really fooling himself.

Fish you hit it on the nose for reconizing the fact that Lee has not had a coach (especially defensively) to hone his defensive skills..He knew what MDA system required, and came back to be one of the best big men mid range shooters in the game( at this point he might be the best) his IQ has also develope, and I really cant see why NYK would not retian this kid services...

Talk about no loyalty

Herb Williams, big man coach. Pretty much been here the whole time.

Lee has never been on a team that played any defense at all. When we had that one good month and Hughes, JJ, Chandler and Duhon were all playing well and defending well Lee's defense was much improved. Then we went to crap.

Lee is never ever going to be a great help defender, but he's shown he can keep a body on his man, box out and clean the glass. If you going to shoot 55% and be the all star on offense that he is thats good enough. He's not a guy thats going to protect the rim. Bosh sure as hell isnt either though.

Fish, I've made that point here multiple times. It always gets ignored like the fact that he typically outplays other centers. Does that mean most centers suck at defense. That point always gets ignored as well

I'm usually not one to get all wrapped up in players physical attributes- like stiff legs and muscles and the like.

But the good and bad of David Lee is he is old school NBA - smart & skilled with the ball, but largely allergic to the weight room and muscle definition.

If David could just put on some upper body strength, he wouldn't get pushed around- face it, he's like a rag doll on defense against stronger players- Chandler is a stronger post defender - Heck - Renaldo Balkman played better post defense on Yao one game than I think Lee is capable of.

For the right price- I'd rather keep David Lee, maybe add a player, and keep building through the draft. Sadly, the last option over the next three years is gone and chances are David is going to command major dollars.

TMS wrote:Fish, we've had these discussions before. when it comes to my teams i root for the logo. i could care less with who we win, as long as we win. when the yankees traded for Rocket i had to argue with people who were up in arms that they'd rather lose than win with guys like him. as a fan of a franchise i have no idea how anyone can feel that way. if it takes us trading Gallo, Wilson and TD to make us into a winning team, i wouldn't hesitate. makes no difference to me if they're here or not as long as we can win a championship i'm good with whoever.

It's understandable some fans feel that way. Sorry I'm not rooting for team full of Gin Bakers. Obviously that's an extreme example but at the same time you have to be real about a given situation.

I mean seriously if we don't land Lebron and we start fielding players who resemble EY Curry you're really asking for a fan to defy their standards.

TMS wrote:i don't mind keeping D Lee but i don't think we can win with a weak defensive frontcourt. we need someone that can patrol the paint i've been railing about that for years. if we can get a defensive stud to play next to Lee i'm cool with that, but i don't think Lee and Bosh or Amare can be tbe formula for a championship. we need to think about the big picture, not focus on sentimental loyalties to any 1 player.

Under no circumstance do I want Lee back, I absolutely do not want us to sign Amar'e. I can tolerate the signing of Bosh but don't want to give him a Max Deal. I'd rather sign Rudy Gay and maybe get Scola and go from there.

TMS wrote:i don't mind keeping D Lee but i don't think we can win with a weak defensive frontcourt. we need someone that can patrol the paint i've been railing about that for years. if we can get a defensive stud to play next to Lee i'm cool with that, but i don't think Lee and Bosh or Amare can be tbe formula for a championship. we need to think about the big picture, not focus on sentimental loyalties to any 1 player.

I'm not saying defense isnt important, but the team with the most best players wins usually right? Lee is a good (all star good) player that gets better every year. You dont just drop 20/12/55% and expect that production to come from other areas.

Allanfan20 wrote:

TMS wrote:i don't mind keeping D Lee but i don't think we can win with a weak defensive frontcourt. we need someone that can patrol the paint i've been railing about that for years. if we can get a defensive stud to play next to Lee i'm cool with that, but i don't think Lee and Bosh or Amare can be tbe formula for a championship. we need to think about the big picture, not focus on sentimental loyalties to any 1 player.

TMS, some people may be talking loyalty here, but when I think of David Lee, I think of the PERFECT compliment to a guy like LeBron. Besides the defense, he could also be LeBrons best teammate he had, if they sign together. Yes, we would have to work on the frontcourt defense and Lee still has to improve there too, but it would be a tandem that would workout very well. Especially considering that Lee doesn't command the ball so much and even thrives without it.

And to be so honest, I may be in the minority, but I've always been one to say we shouldn't be like every other team by catering to LeBrons wants by throwing him the kitchen sink. If he only wants to come if Chris Bosh wants to come f' that. Lee has almost as good as an impact, almost as good production and will come maybe 7 million dollars cheaper. And they are both equally as bad on the defensive end for the record. If LeBron doesn't know all that, then I honestly question his judgement.

But take a look at Lee vs Bosh head to head over the years. Lee has been raped by Bosh, I realize a lot of that has to do with the teams around them and the Knicks have sucked forever and a day. do still think Bosh is the better player of the two.

fishmike wrote:

TMS wrote:i don't mind keeping D Lee but i don't think we can win with a weak defensive frontcourt. we need someone that can patrol the paint i've been railing about that for years. if we can get a defensive stud to play next to Lee i'm cool with that, but i don't think Lee and Bosh or Amare can be tbe formula for a championship. we need to think about the big picture, not focus on sentimental loyalties to any 1 player.

how would you catagorize the Suns? They went to game 6 of the WCF. Thats pretty good isnt it?

I'm not saying defense isnt important, but the team with the most best players wins usually right? Lee is a good (all star good) player that gets better every year. You dont just drop 20/12/55% and expect that production to come from other areas.

i got my eyes set on championships, not on being just good enough to make the ECF... you don't just slot in D Lee's 20/12/55% on a good team & expect no drop off.

TMS wrote:

KnicksSince88 wrote:David Lee, to me, would be a great fit for Orlando, and id have to wonder if they would be interested in a sign and trade. They could really use a natural 4, and many of his defensive issues would be masked with the most dominant defensive force in the league patrolling the paint next to him. Would give them a much more conventional lineup, and despite Howard's dominance on the glass the Magic are one of the poorest offensive rebounding teams in the league. He could really help them. Plus, he has ties to that area. If I'm the Magic im in contact with his agent

i agree... with a defensive presence like DH in the paint, Lee would be a nice fit on that team... but who do they have that we would want other than Dwight & maybe Jameer, neither of whom they're likely to give up?

Im a pretty big Gortat fan. I know it's sometimes dangerous to use rate stats with guys who don't play a ton of minutes, but his rebound and blk rates (19.1% reb, 4.7% blk) for his career are pretty damn great. He can defend the post, plays hard. Has double double like potential if given 30 minutes with plus defensive ability and a shot blocking presence and his contract is affordable. Like JVG says, its impossible to be a good defensive team if you can't defend the paint and he would help us in that area. Obviously there are only so many minutes for him on that team with Dwight since you can't really go twin tower look with them and their skill sets

Im really not a cap expert but I know just Gortat wouldn't make it work cap wise. It would take another contract. Depending on what happens with the big FA, this would be something I'd consider. I really think in this weak Center league Gortat could give us a better presence than most

TMS wrote:

KnicksSince88 wrote:

TMS wrote:

KnicksSince88 wrote:David Lee, to me, would be a great fit for Orlando, and id have to wonder if they would be interested in a sign and trade. They could really use a natural 4, and many of his defensive issues would be masked with the most dominant defensive force in the league patrolling the paint next to him. Would give them a much more conventional lineup, and despite Howard's dominance on the glass the Magic are one of the poorest offensive rebounding teams in the league. He could really help them. Plus, he has ties to that area. If I'm the Magic im in contact with his agent

i agree... with a defensive presence like DH in the paint, Lee would be a nice fit on that team... but who do they have that we would want other than Dwight & maybe Jameer, neither of whom they're likely to give up?

Im a pretty big Gortat fan. I know it's sometimes dangerous to use rate stats with guys who don't play a ton of minutes, but his rebound and blk rates (19.1% reb, 4.7% blk) for his career are pretty damn great. He can defend the post, plays hard. Has double double like potential if given 30 minutes with plus defensive ability and a shot blocking presence and his contract is affordable. Like JVG says, its impossible to be a good defensive team if you can't defend the paint and he would help us in that area. Obviously there are only so many minutes for him on that team with Dwight since you can't really go twin tower look with them and their skill sets

Im really not a cap expert but I know just Gortat wouldn't make it work cap wise. It would take another contract. Depending on what happens with the big FA, this would be something I'd consider. I really think in this weak Center league Gortat could give us a better presence than most

ugh... Gortat is a bit role player, nothing more... i wouldn't trade D Lee for that guy, no chance in hell... i'd rather just let Lee's contract come off the books than hamper ourselves with a longterm contract of another role player until we land ourselves a stud to build around first.

Gortat is a lot better than a bit role player, unless you automatically give that label to everyone who is not an elite offensive player. If given 30 minutes a night he would easily be a double digit rebounder and he'd be top 5-7 in shot blocking in the league, easily, as well as providing above average post defense.

Hell when Gortat hit restricted FA last year he had a hell of a lot more teams lining up to talk to him than Lee did, including some of the sharper front offices in the sport (Houston, Dallas, Oklahoma City to name a few). Orlando kept him long term for a reason even though they already have the best big man in the league, and matched the offer Dallas made, which was pretty substantial for a guy who doesn't play a lot given that the best Center in the league is on his team and they can't play many minutes together. These teams see what he can bring. Im not making the guy out to be a HOFer but he'd definitely make us better defensively instantly

Plan A is getting LeBron, anything that gets in the way of that (which could include taking on Gortat and not being able to offer a 2nd max) is not something I would do. But you got to have a plan A, B, C, etc. And depending on what happens with the big names, adding someone like Gortat at his salary (which is not an albatross for what he can bring IMO) is something id consider

TMS wrote:what proof do you have that Gortat would "easily" be a double digit rebounder & a top shot blocker if given the minutes? don't use those 48 per projections to determine a player's productivity over a longer span of minutes, those types of stats are highly flawed... there are things to consider such as stamina, durability, consistency, staying out of foul trouble & the type of system that a player is playing in & how he will be used that can sway those projections drastically.

before Jerome Big Turd James was signed to his ridiculous full MLE contract, there were posters just like you railing about how effective he could be given the minutes & justifying the investment based on a skewed sample of stats... now i will say Gortat is in much better shape than Turd was but the premise is still the same... i haven't seen any proof to qualify Gortat as anything more than a bit role player in my eyes.

I was never a Jerome James fan and I don't see how in the world his fat lazy ass can draw comparisons to Gortat. We don't have to question whether or not Gortat actually likes the game of basketball or can keep himself in shape, Gortat is a far superior rebounder and post defender than Jerome James has ever been at any point in his life even when he halfway cared

We were dumb to give Jerome James that deal because not many teams were interested in him. There were a ton in the Gortat mix last offseason and with good reason, including a bunch of GMS who know what they're doing.

Are there flaws with rate stats? Sure. Is there any doubt in my mind that if Gortat played 30 minutes a night he could be roughly a double digit rebounder and continue to be an effective shot blocker/post defender? No. His length, strength, and toughness would continue to be displayed if he were given the chance to play more. And a bunch of GMs around the league felt the way I did. The defending Eastern Champs though decided to pony up to keep the guy for depth

Plus we're not talking about a guy making 10+ mil here. For what he brings his deal is more than fair