TMS wrote:dude, when i fug up at work i don't go into it intending to fug up, it just happens... & if it happens i'm going to be held accountable for my mistake, regardless if i did it on purpose or not... what kind of defense is that to say he didn't intend to misread the situation? this man is being paid multi-million dollars not to misread situations like this... he's being paid a ton of money to coach this team & get the best play he possibly can out of them... has he done a good job of doing that the 2 years he's been our head coach? i would say definitely not.

how can you not care about him not paying attention to developing our young guys? so why even bother drafting anyone last summer if you had no expectations on that front when we hired this coach? should have just sold those picks for cash savings if you place that little value on having young guys developing in this system... i'm gonna guess most fans of the Knicks probably don't share in that line of thinking dude.

& second guessing him is what fans do... every fan is an armchair coach or GM or whatever else u wanna call it... of course none of us are qualified to make these types of decisions or claim we have all the answers otherwise we wouldn't be stuck talking about it on a message board, we'd be doing it in real life... that's what this man is being paid for, to know more than average fans like you & me know... u don't think even a casual fan of this team could have told you that playing Chris Duhon & Jared Jeffries for 35+ minutes a night was an excercise in futility this season?... i mean this is the same guy who just the other day said "I didn't know he could do that" when Toney Douglas took over the game in crunchtime & sparked this team to a W... REALLY??? you're the head coach who watches this guy in practice all the time & you didn't know your own player could give u that type of play? sorry, but this guy must think people are incredibly stupid if he expects us to buy that excuse... other than Toney Douglas himself, MDA is the first guy who should have known the type of player Toney Douglas was capable of blossoming into... he probably would have seen it much earlier if he hadn't had Toney Douglas wasting away on the bench for most of the season.

btw, i didn't say he must be fired right now so i just want u to know i'm not in that group you're speaking about... i'm willing to give him 1 more season to prove why he was brought here... to me that means taking a team with talent deep into the playoffs... we're too deeply invested into this guy to give up now before he has a chance to coach a decent roster... i'm assuming we'll be making some major wheeling & dealing this summer, so there's no more excuses left for this guy... he either needs to put up or shut up & the same goes for the GM... accountability, that's a word that this organization hasn't known the meaning of for a long time now.

you know i just think that coaching is one of those strange jobs where you rely so much on other people's performance that it is very difficult to pin the results solely on him. when you f up at work, i bet it's a little easier to discern that it was your mistake. and further, it's probably pretty clear what would have resulted had you done the right thing. that's the problem with judging coaches. even if he did everything we wanted, there's no guarantee that the results would have been different for better or worse.

furthermore, MDA can go out there and coach his heart out but he needs talented, skilled, cooperative and willing players. tim grover is widely considered one of the greatest trainers around. he's the chosen trainer for guys like kobe bryant and dwyane wade. well, even tim grover could not get eddy curry in shape to play a full year of bball. does that mean that tim grover does not know what he's doing? i'm not saying this is completely analogous. my point is that when you coach, you are very dependent on others, and that's what makes it hard to judge.

sure we see guys like douglas playing well now and it frustrates the hell out of us. as if he just would have played great all year if given the chance. but we don't know that. it's not so simple. i've been around guys that are lights out when the pressure is off. never miss during shoot arounds. play great in casual settings, but when the game speeds up and things get serious, they aren't nearly as effective. so when d'antoni says he didn't know TD could do that in a game, maybe it's part hyperbole (like: "WHOA!! Didn't know he could do that!!), maybe it's a revelation that the kid had finally caught up to speed. we just don't know.

as far as playing jeffries goes, i can never be on board for that (you remember me going off on him when we were all at the game -- that might have been one of my better drunk and belligerent at the game moments), BUT, the zone that MDA incorporated into our defense which used jeffries and his length and IQ as a centerpiece was one of the more creative things that d'antoni did this year. shockingly, it was a defensive touch. and unfortunately, duhon was mike's guy. he took him on krzyzewski's recommendation. stayed loyal to a fault. mistake: yes. did it lose the season for us? not sure about that. how many of us realistically saw this team making the playoffs?

if it's not obvious already, i'm so burnt out on the coach talk. i feel like all we do is fire coaches. and i think that's a big reason why players generally do not respect coaches and are not willing to be coached. i also think some consistency here is a welcomed change. i don't feel like MDA has really cost us all that much. i don't think douglas has been permanently damaged. i don't think our record was going to be much better than it is. i'm pleased with lee, chandler and gallo's development. i'm disappointed that hill was not given a chance with us. however, player development is a funny thing. some guys develop without playing time (see: jermaine o'neal). i'm not sure how much a coach can develop a player by just handing him minutes. if anything, i can see that creating a sense of entitlement that would eventually be counterproductive. people tend to appreciate things more when they are earned.

if MDA flops next year with great players, then there can be no defense. as for now, i think he's done a bad job with a bad team. the best he could have done with this team is what? 36 wins? he's gonna fall short of that, but really, no one here would have been excited by that win total anyway.

eViL wrote:if MDA flops next year with great players, then there can be no defense. as for now, i think he's done a bad job with a bad team. the best he could have done with this team is what? 36 wins? he's gonna fall short of that, but really, no one here would have been excited by that win total anyway.

you're equating a good job with win totals. my critique of d'antoni has nothing to do with win totals. it has to do with principles involved and whether this guy is cut out to being the person to lead a team to a championship level b/c after 2010, that will be the expectations of knicks fans.

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:twist it & turn it? dude, the comments were aired on MSG the other day before the game... are u serious?

Here's Hahn's take: "And Harry, you are absolutely correct. The headline totally misrepresented what Jordan actually said. Then it was misrepresented to Mike D'Antoni before the game. Then Mike said what he said, which turned into exactly what some newspapers are in the business of promoting: controversy!"

u said the papers misrepresented what Mike D'Antoni said about only liking "bad rookies"... the comments were aired by MSG & people commented on what they heard w/their own ears, they weren't steered towards their viewpoints by an agenda driven media.

i have no idea what was said about Jordan Hill's comments to Mike D'Antoni & it could very well be that they misrepresented his comments to try & spur an emotional response, but what's that got to do with people's opinions on MDA's lack of tact w/his assinine comments? shouldn't we expect a coach with a track record like MDA to be able to take the high road even if he thinks some rookie player is talking smack about him? should we defend MDA's tactless comments about only playing "good rookies" that pretty much trashed every single rookie player he's ever coached that didn't see playing time?

eViL wrote:you know i just think that coaching is one of those strange jobs where you rely so much on other people's performance that it is very difficult to pin the results solely on him. when you f up at work, i bet it's a little easier to discern that it was your mistake. and further, it's probably pretty clear what would have resulted had you done the right thing. that's the problem with judging coaches. even if he did everything we wanted, there's no guarantee that the results would have been different for better or worse.

furthermore, MDA can go out there and coach his heart out but he needs talented, skilled, cooperative and willing players. tim grover is widely considered one of the greatest trainers around. he's the chosen trainer for guys like kobe bryant and dwyane wade. well, even tim grover could not get eddy curry in shape to play a full year of bball. does that mean that tim grover does not know what he's doing? i'm not saying this is completely analogous. my point is that when you coach, you are very dependent on others, and that's what makes it hard to judge.

sure we see guys like douglas playing well now and it frustrates the hell out of us. as if he just would have played great all year if given the chance. but we don't know that. it's not so simple. i've been around guys that are lights out when the pressure is off. never miss during shoot arounds. play great in casual settings, but when the game speeds up and things get serious, they aren't nearly as effective. so when d'antoni says he didn't know TD could do that in a game, maybe it's part hyperbole (like: "WHOA!! Didn't know he could do that!!), maybe it's a revelation that the kid had finally caught up to speed. we just don't know.

as far as playing jeffries goes, i can never be on board for that (you remember me going off on him when we were all at the game -- that might have been one of my better drunk and belligerent at the game moments), BUT, the zone that MDA incorporated into our defense which used jeffries and his length and IQ as a centerpiece was one of the more creative things that d'antoni did this year. shockingly, it was a defensive touch. and unfortunately, duhon was mike's guy. he took him on krzyzewski's recommendation. stayed loyal to a fault. mistake: yes. did it lose the season for us? not sure about that. how many of us realistically saw this team making the playoffs?

if it's not obvious already, i'm so burnt out on the coach talk. i feel like all we do is fire coaches. and i think that's a big reason why players generally do not respect coaches and are not willing to be coached. i also think some consistency here is a welcomed change. i don't feel like MDA has really cost us all that much. i don't think douglas has been permanently damaged. i don't think our record was going to be much better than it is. i'm pleased with lee, chandler and gallo's development. i'm disappointed that hill was not given a chance with us. however, player development is a funny thing. some guys develop without playing time (see: jermaine o'neal). i'm not sure how much a coach can develop a player by just handing him minutes. if anything, i can see that creating a sense of entitlement that would eventually be counterproductive. people tend to appreciate things more when they are earned.

if MDA flops next year with great players, then there can be no defense. as for now, i think he's done a bad job with a bad team. the best he could have done with this team is what? 36 wins? he's gonna fall short of that, but really, no one here would have been excited by that win total anyway.

first off, just wanna say u are 1 of the more enjoyable posters to debate anything with because you offer up legitimate points (when you're not being a sarcastic douche) & don't misrepresent someone else's comments to strengthen your own... ups to my boy.

now that the kumbaya is out of the way...

how many of us realistically saw this team making the playoffs?

--------

if MDA flops next year with great players, then there can be no defense. as for now, i think he's done a bad job with a bad team. the best he could have done with this team is what? 36 wins? he's gonna fall short of that, but really, no one here would have been excited by that win total anyway.

that is exactly my point tho... we all knew this team would suck this year, so what was the point in playing role playing vets so many minutes that you knew had no future on this team beyond this season? why did MDA stick with Duhon so long when he was clearly struggling & not give the rookie a chance? we knew this season was shot to hell before the season even got under way, so why not use that wasted season & at least get some kind of value out of it by playing the rookies? it's really not much to expect out of a coach who he himself admitted the situation here would take some backwards steps before being able to move forward... the problem i have is when a coach says 1 thing & does another... he sells us all on how he's on board w/Donnie's plan to rebuild & develop the young guys, & yet doesn't play any of the rookies Donnie drafts... it doesn't make any sense to me... playing Fishlips (i will eternally be indebted to you thank you for that name) & Duhon 35+ minutes a night this season doesn't make any sense to me when u have 2 rookies who should have been seeing those minutes in a throw away season... playing clear favorites in the lockerroom doesn't make sense to me when you're trying to build team unity... IMO MDA has done a HORRIBLE job of managing this team the past 2 years & i'm not afraid to call him out on it... it's not a question of expecting better results in terms of wins & losses.

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:

when u represent my argument's correctly i'll give u a response... if u wanna keep exaggerating to make your point don't bother wasting my time dude.

btw, i'm pretty sure Donnie Walsh has a better grasp on judging NBA talent than you do also, so much for your expert pronouncements about Jordan Hill's upside potential based on 24 games of sporadic action.

I don't think anyone knows what the hell your argument is beyond trashing Walsh and Mike for no real good reason, ignoring the path of the team, and throwing fits over a mediocre player in Jordan Hill as if we dumped a potential superstar.

It just seems you want to vent over just about nothing in a far overblown way and when someone questions you about it you clam up.

So, well, whatever...

for those that are capable of understanding simple english, my posts are not hard to understand...

Is all you can do is insult people now?

Your posts are English? Have you proofread any of them?

Had enough of this...and I have answered you time and again. You ignore it and rant on.

I wrote my last post about Jordan Hill in the Houston game thread if you're interested.

I certainly am not entertained anymore by this so I'm moving on. It's been beaten to death.

if you're done with them then stop responding... i've tried to explain my position to you countless times only to have you misrepresent & over exaggerate them to strengthen your own points... so put me on ignore dude, i don't really give a crap... these stupid back & forths with you are not what i'm here for.

TMS wrote:first off, just wanna say u are 1 of the more enjoyable posters to debate anything with because you offer up legitimate points (when you're not being a sarcastic douche) & don't misrepresent someone else's comments to strengthen your own... ups to my boy.

now that the kumbaya is out of the way...

how many of us realistically saw this team making the playoffs?

--------

if MDA flops next year with great players, then there can be no defense. as for now, i think he's done a bad job with a bad team. the best he could have done with this team is what? 36 wins? he's gonna fall short of that, but really, no one here would have been excited by that win total anyway.

that is exactly my point tho... we all knew this team would suck this year, so what was the point in playing role playing vets so many minutes that you knew had no future on this team beyond this season? why did MDA stick with Duhon so long when he was clearly struggling & not give the rookie a chance? we knew this season was shot to hell before the season even got under way, so why not use that wasted season & at least get some kind of value out of it by playing the rookies? it's really not much to expect out of a coach who he himself admitted the situation here would take some backwards steps before being able to move forward... the problem i have is when a coach says 1 thing & does another... he sells us all on how he's on board w/Donnie's plan to rebuild & develop the young guys, & yet doesn't play any of the rookies Donnie drafts... it doesn't make any sense to me... playing Fishlips (i will eternally be indebted to you thank you for that name) & Duhon 35+ minutes a night this season doesn't make any sense to me when u have 2 rookies who should have been seeing those minutes in a throw away season... playing clear favorites in the lockerroom doesn't make sense to me when you're trying to build team unity... IMO MDA has done a HORRIBLE job of managing this team the past 2 years & i'm not afraid to call him out on it... it's not a question of expecting better results in terms of wins & losses.

right back at ya bro. always good to go at it with you in a respectful manner.

as far as getting into coach's head to tell you why he made some of those head-scratching decisions. my guess: ego. i bet he really fancies himself as a bball genius. hopefully, this year will knock that down a notch and humble him for a year where he's gonna have a lot to prove.

we knew they would be bad, but he had to put on a public stance of trying to be good. you play the rooks from the onset and we could be looking at the knicks and nets competing for most losses ever. just take the nets as an example, they gave the keys to the young guns and this is where it took them -- potentially record-breaking futility. and supposedly they have better young pieces than we do.

you can't hand the team to the rooks over the vets and then, if it doesn't work, pull the rooks in favor of the vets. this can simultaneously shatter a young player's confidence while creating rifts in a locker-room that would make some of this season's turmoil seem like tranquility. the opposite, however, works ok because rooks generally should have no problem sitting behind vets waiting for their shot.

it is too bad there is not one clear leader as a player on this team. when the most talented, most skilled player is also a leader, and on the same page as coach, coaching is much easier. unfortunately for MDA, he hasn't had a guy like that here. his most skilled players have been knuckleheads, or too young to lead, his best "leaders" haven't been talented enough to command respect.

TMS wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:

when u represent my argument's correctly i'll give u a response... if u wanna keep exaggerating to make your point don't bother wasting my time dude.

btw, i'm pretty sure Donnie Walsh has a better grasp on judging NBA talent than you do also, so much for your expert pronouncements about Jordan Hill's upside potential based on 24 games of sporadic action.

I don't think anyone knows what the hell your argument is beyond trashing Walsh and Mike for no real good reason, ignoring the path of the team, and throwing fits over a mediocre player in Jordan Hill as if we dumped a potential superstar.

It just seems you want to vent over just about nothing in a far overblown way and when someone questions you about it you clam up.

So, well, whatever...

for those that are capable of understanding simple english, my posts are not hard to understand...

Is all you can do is insult people now?

Your posts are English? Have you proofread any of them?

Had enough of this...and I have answered you time and again. You ignore it and rant on.

I wrote my last post about Jordan Hill in the Houston game thread if you're interested.

I certainly am not entertained anymore by this so I'm moving on. It's been beaten to death.

if you're done with them then stop responding... i've tried to explain my position to you countless times only to have you misrepresent & over exaggerate them to strengthen your own points... so put me on ignore dude, i don't really give a crap... these stupid back & forths with you are not what i'm here for.

I reply because you call me out, you do to my posts what you insinuate I do to yours which I do not, and you've done nothing but insult me over the past few weeks in any reply. Not too keen on that. You put me on blast and insult me but expect me to hush up and not clarify my point of view on the topics you blast me over? I don't think so. Can't have it both ways.

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

TMS wrote:

when u represent my argument's correctly i'll give u a response... if u wanna keep exaggerating to make your point don't bother wasting my time dude.

btw, i'm pretty sure Donnie Walsh has a better grasp on judging NBA talent than you do also, so much for your expert pronouncements about Jordan Hill's upside potential based on 24 games of sporadic action.

I don't think anyone knows what the hell your argument is beyond trashing Walsh and Mike for no real good reason, ignoring the path of the team, and throwing fits over a mediocre player in Jordan Hill as if we dumped a potential superstar.

It just seems you want to vent over just about nothing in a far overblown way and when someone questions you about it you clam up.

So, well, whatever...

for those that are capable of understanding simple english, my posts are not hard to understand...

Is all you can do is insult people now?

Your posts are English? Have you proofread any of them?

Had enough of this...and I have answered you time and again. You ignore it and rant on.

I wrote my last post about Jordan Hill in the Houston game thread if you're interested.

I certainly am not entertained anymore by this so I'm moving on. It's been beaten to death.

if you're done with them then stop responding... i've tried to explain my position to you countless times only to have you misrepresent & over exaggerate them to strengthen your own points... so put me on ignore dude, i don't really give a crap... these stupid back & forths with you are not what i'm here for.

I reply because you call me out, you do to my posts what you insinuate I do to yours which I do not, and you've done nothing but insult me over the past few weeks in any reply. Not too keen on that. You put me on blast and insult me but expect me to hush up and not clarify my point of view on the topics you blast me over? I don't think so. Can't have it both ways.

so you don't falsely insinuate that i expected this team to be a playoff contender if we had been playing the rookies this season when i never alluded to that at all? you don't make up BS exaggerations that people who weren't happy w/the T-Mac trade are portraying Jordan Hill as the next Wilt Chamberlain everytime u go off on your silly rants? don't make me go back & quote your posts, people around here have read your comments enough times to see the false exaggerations you make everytime you try & argue against the critics... u call people out for lacking any understanding on a regular basis & make uncalled for sarcastic digs to degrade our opinions without being provoked when all we're trying to do is present legitimate concerns over the handling of this franchise... if u want to have a reasonable conversation on the topic, then u need to chill out with your exaggerations & false insinuations & represent people's opinions accurately.