Marv wrote:
doesn’t signing dlee basically equal 1 of the 2 major FA signings that we can do? so if we stay with the premise that lebron needs another star player here in order to come, then it hardly matters to me if it's lebron plus bosh, amare, lee or johnson. wade and dirk are staying. so in these scenarios we can’t get 3 major players, only 2. so why is it bad in any way to get lebron and bosh, amare or, johnson and let lee walk? you can't have 3. you can’t take anything back for lee and still sign #2. so what's the big whoop about lee leaving in this scenario? If he’s the one we sign with lebron then that’s great by me as well. Personally Bosh is my #1 choice, but any of those guys with lebron would be awesome and you HAVE to let lee go if he’s not gonna be the one.

u can work a sign & trade with TOR to benefit all parties involved if Bosh is the guy... that way both players get their 6th year & both teams end up with an Allstar F... Bosh is obviously far superior than Lee but i think they'd much rather have Lee than lose Bosh for nothing, don't u?

otherwise if Lee refuses a sign & trade to go to TOR, u can try & work a 3 way trade somehow to land a player like Okafor or someone along those lines whose teams may be looking to deal... not saying the Hornets are actively looking to trade him but that's just the premise i'm talking about... there will be options out there to explore sign & trades with... just letting D Lee walk for nothing is a horrible management of assets... at worst u can offer him up to teams who are under the cap this summer who don't have a realistic shot of attracting any of the top FA's who have picks to deal & the cap space to absorb contracts in a lopsided money deal... if Lee wants to go to another team i have to believe he'd be amenable to working out some kind of sign & trade deal so the Knicks don't get left empty handed.

djsunyc wrote:when it comes to guys like amare, boozer, joe johnson and lee - the first team to show them a big contract will be able to sign them since their own team won't give them crazy love. especially lee b/c this will be his only big deal of his career. imho, i think the nets make a major power move for his services this summer. they will sell more tix the next 2 years in newark and brooklyn will be sold out. they don't have to worry about recouping contract costs for a while so they can give him more than the knicks would be willing to. and if they accept that lebron + wade or bosh won't go there, then they can be calling him on july 8th and give the knicks zero time to make a decision.

Agree 100% with this. A lot of people think Lee is just going to sit there and wait for us to go through all of our options and then if we don't sign someone, we'll have David there as a fallback option. I don't see that happening if Lee gets a good offer right off the bat. He can't afford to wait on the Knicks as other teams might end up using their cap while he's waiting and he could ultimately get screwed over in the process. This is the most important contract of his life and he has to make sure that he doesn't screw it up.

TMS wrote:

Marv wrote:
doesn’t signing dlee basically equal 1 of the 2 major FA signings that we can do? so if we stay with the premise that lebron needs another star player here in order to come, then it hardly matters to me if it's lebron plus bosh, amare, lee or johnson. wade and dirk are staying. so in these scenarios we can’t get 3 major players, only 2. so why is it bad in any way to get lebron and bosh, amare or, johnson and let lee walk? you can't have 3. you can’t take anything back for lee and still sign #2. so what's the big whoop about lee leaving in this scenario? If he’s the one we sign with lebron then that’s great by me as well. Personally Bosh is my #1 choice, but any of those guys with lebron would be awesome and you HAVE to let lee go if he’s not gonna be the one.

u can work a sign & trade with TOR to benefit all parties involved if Bosh is the guy... that way both players get their 6th year & both teams end up with an Allstar F... Bosh is obviously far superior than Lee but i think they'd much rather have Lee than lose Bosh for nothing, don't u?

otherwise if Lee refuses a sign & trade to go to TOR, u can try & work a 3 way trade somehow to land a player like Okafor or someone along those lines whose teams may be looking to deal... not saying the Hornets are actively looking to trade him but that's just the premise i'm talking about... there will be options out there to explore sign & trades with... just letting D Lee walk for nothing is a horrible management of assets... at worst u can offer him up to teams who are under the cap this summer who don't have a realistic shot of attracting any of the top FA's who have picks to deal & the cap space to absorb contracts in a lopsided money deal... if Lee wants to go to another team i have to believe he'd be amenable to working out some kind of sign & trade deal so the Knicks don't get left empty handed.

ok to all the above. but just so i understand - would you be fine with letting him walk if we signed 2 of the biggies available ?

TMS wrote:

s3231 wrote:

TMS wrote:

s3231 wrote:

TMS wrote:

s3231 wrote:I'm not sure I understand why bringing David Lee back equates to him being our center next year.

I think everyone here agrees that we do NOT want the same front court next season that we had this season. Bringing Lee back doesn't automatically mean we will have that same front court though. Upgrading the front court is unquestionably a priority for this team and I'm not sure why people think that will be easy to achieve if we let an all-star front court walk. You can bring in a guy like Camby or Jermaine O'Neal at a very cheap price and that instantly makes our front court much better.

If you let Lee walk though, it will be much more difficult to use our cap space to both shore up the front court and take care of other weaknesses.

After all, the front court isn't the only area we need to improve on and you can make a valid argument that we have other more pressing needs. We still don't have a good playmaker on the wings, our perimeter D sucks, etc. If you let Lee walk for nothing, it will be very difficult to replace that and make any progress on other areas to improve on.

fish made it a point to criticize my idea to sign Scola & a defensive minded C over extending Lee to a big money deal... that's where that comes from... Camby & J.O. were guys i suggested in a previous thread

btw, no one said let Lee walk for nothing... if u don't sign him, u trade him for assets... a draft pick at the very least... i think that's a given... otherwise Donnie Walsh is a complete idiot.

Problem is there is no guarantee that we can trade him for assets. Toronto has some leverage on Bosh because they don't plan on renouncing his bird rights and can give him the extra $30 million in a sign and trade.

We can't really do that to Lee though because he isn't a max player and other teams will essentially be able to offer a very similar deal. Yeah, we can give him better % increases from year to year but if we end up renouncing those bird rights, we lose that and that extra 6 year we can offer.

I don't think we have much leverage at all in this scenario. Lee can very easily go to NJ and say "screw you NY."

i don't think Lee is the type of guy that would do that personally... T-Mac was under no obligation to agree to a sign & trade to get out of TOR either, but he did it... sign & trade benefits Lee because it gets him that 6th year that he won't be able to get by signing w/some team outright... it is in his best interest to agree to a sign & trade.

Didn't T-Mac get the max though? He would have been leaving a lot of money on the table if he didn't do the sign and trade. This won't be the case with Lee though as he isn't a max player and teams with cap can offer him a bigger contract than we're willing to give him right away.

if another team is willing to offer him more than we're willing to give, why wouldn't he be open to working out a sign & trade so he can go to that team that wants him & allow the Knicks to get back something for him? the Knicks did him a solid by signing him to well more than what they had to this year... i don't think he would easily forget that gesture of good faith on Donnie's part... would be pretty douchey of him to leave us hanging after that if u ask me.

I don't know, I don't think he would be a dick to jump on the 1st good contract offer that he gets.
This is the most important contract of his career and while Donnie did a good deed by giving him the extra money he also made it clear that he is looking out for the Knicks' best interests (as he should).

If July 8th comes around and Donnie is waiting for answers on from Bosh and LeBron, do you see David waiting the process out if he gets a good offer? Other teams are NOT going to give David offers and just sit there while he waits on the Knicks. They are going to tell him "We want you, but we got to do this soon or else we'll have to go after other guys."

Everyone is not going to look out for the well being of the Knicks.

TMS wrote:

Marv wrote:

TMS wrote:

Marv wrote:
doesn’t signing dlee basically equal 1 of the 2 major FA signings that we can do? so if we stay with the premise that lebron needs another star player here in order to come, then it hardly matters to me if it's lebron plus bosh, amare, lee or johnson. wade and dirk are staying. so in these scenarios we can’t get 3 major players, only 2. so why is it bad in any way to get lebron and bosh, amare or, johnson and let lee walk? you can't have 3. you can’t take anything back for lee and still sign #2. so what's the big whoop about lee leaving in this scenario? If he’s the one we sign with lebron then that’s great by me as well. Personally Bosh is my #1 choice, but any of those guys with lebron would be awesome and you HAVE to let lee go if he’s not gonna be the one.

u can work a sign & trade with TOR to benefit all parties involved if Bosh is the guy... that way both players get their 6th year & both teams end up with an Allstar F... Bosh is obviously far superior than Lee but i think they'd much rather have Lee than lose Bosh for nothing, don't u?

otherwise if Lee refuses a sign & trade to go to TOR, u can try & work a 3 way trade somehow to land a player like Okafor or someone along those lines whose teams may be looking to deal... not saying the Hornets are actively looking to trade him but that's just the premise i'm talking about... there will be options out there to explore sign & trades with... just letting D Lee walk for nothing is a horrible management of assets... at worst u can offer him up to teams who are under the cap this summer who don't have a realistic shot of attracting any of the top FA's who have picks to deal & the cap space to absorb contracts in a lopsided money deal... if Lee wants to go to another team i have to believe he'd be amenable to working out some kind of sign & trade deal so the Knicks don't get left empty handed.

ok to all the above. but just so i understand - would you be fine with letting him walk if we signed 2 of the biggies available ?

i wouldn't be, no... i'd be angry that Donnie lost Lee w/o getting anything in return... whether we get Lebron & Bosh is pretty much besides the point on this issue... obviously i'd be pretty damn happy about landing those 2 guys, but i wouldn't be happy about losing Lee for nothing bro... just keeping it real with u.

i appreciate that. i'm trying to understand. it seems to me there are 3 possible scenarios - 1. sign him and keep him. 2. sign him and trade him. 3. let him go. if we let him go and use his money for one of the 2 players we want, then i don't see that as getting nothing in return or wasting an asset. i would call that utilizing the asset of his vacated salary slot in a way that benefits the team every bit as much as signing him or trading him.

Marv wrote:i appreciate that. i'm trying to understand. it seems to me there are 3 possible scenarios - 1. sign him and keep him. 2. sign him and trade him. 3. let him go. if we let him go and use his money for one of the 2 players we want, then i don't see that as getting nothing in return or wasting an asset. i would call that utilizing the asset of his vacated salary slot in a way that benefits the team every bit as much as signing him or trading him.

i guess my point of view is that we're very unlikely to be able to sign either Lebron or Bosh w/o giving up some assets to their respective teams... no team in their right mind would let their franchise guy walk w/o landing some assets in return... the Raptors with T-Mac is just 1 example... the Pistons got back Ben Wallace & Chucky Atkins for Grant Hill rather than lose him for nothing... Donnie Walsh is well respected & has a good working relationship with most of the GM's around the league... i have to believe if these players are set on leaving their teams, that some sort of deals can be worked out to benefit all parties involved... the players get their 6th years & go to the teams of their choice, the teams get back usable assets in return, & the new teams get their man... i believe that's how it will shake out this summer... i don't recall anytime a top FA left his team in the lurch like this... 2nd & 3rd tier FA's i can see because other teams can offer more money than their teams are willing to match, but i don't think David Lee is built that way... i could be wrong but i think he understands the business of the NBA & won't want to screw Donnie Walsh or the NY Knicks franchise.

EDIT: scratch that, there has been 1 time a top FA signed w/another team outright... that was Shaq signing w/the Lakers... maybe Lebron does the same to come to NY, who knows i guess... but that would be a pipedream at this point... if Lebron thinks CLE fans will hate his guts if he leaves town, just imagine the vitriol he'll experience around the league if he leaves that franchise holding their nuts in their hand & nothing else?

TMS wrote:

s3231 wrote:I don't know, I don't think he would be a dick to jump on the 1st good contract offer that he gets.
This is the most important contract of his career and while Donnie did a good deed by giving him the extra money he also made it clear that he is looking out for the Knicks' best interests (as he should).

If July 8th comes around and Donnie is waiting for answers on from Bosh and LeBron, do you see David waiting the process out if he gets a good offer? Other teams are NOT going to give David offers and just sit there while he waits on the Knicks. They are going to tell him "We want you, but we got to do this soon or else we'll have to go after other guys."

Everyone is not going to look out for the well being of the Knicks.

the same can be said about the Cavs & Raptors too tho... no one's going to look out for those teams' benefits but themselves... if they offer the max to their players but those guys are hesitant to sign, do u think they will want to risk losing those guys for nothing? that would be 50 times worse than the Knicks letting Lee walk, don't u think? both those guys are franchise players for their respective teams... Lee is a nice player but far from being a franchise level talent... i think all of the teams involved will want to cooperate so as to ensure they don't lose their players for nothing in return... & i think all of the players involved will want to accomodate the teams that drafted & developed them as much as possible & not leave them in the lurch... i mean of course it's possible that Lee could walk for nothing, in which case i would say Donnie really should have traded him a year ago like i'd been saying all along... there really is no excuse in my eyes for Donnie to lose his top chip for nothing in return... u might disagree but that's how i feel & have felt about it for 2 years now.

I think those teams are different situations though. They are over the cap and will use their players' respective bird rights to make the max offer. After that, there really isn't much those teams can do because they don't have cap space so they pretty much have to sit back and wait on the decisions.

We are in a much different position though because yeah, LeBron and Bosh might force us to sit and wait on their decisions. Problem is if we do that, we could possibly lose other players in the process (e.g. Lee). I mean, Lee could very well get a good offer early on and decide to sign with another team. There is no incentive for him to wait because the team that is making him the offer might use that money on someone else. Bosh and LeBron can afford to take their time though because they will have max offers waiting for them from Toronto and Cleveland should they decide to come back.

Cleveland and Toronto really have no choices though other than to sit back and hope that their guys either come back or agree to sign and trades. We are in a much different position with our cap space and Donnie has to be careful as hell to make sure that we get the most out of it.