Pharzeone wrote:The problem I have is that the threshold for the team changes to match the current situation. When they are losing all I hear is that the roster is horrible and it is about 2010 but when they win it is about the fantastic job Walsh and D'Antoni are doing. I didn't follow the team in the preseason but I do remember where both Walsh and D'Antoni proclaim that this team should be a playoff team and they were happy with the roster as well as the fact that they had a year together that they didn't have to worry about getting to know the system. Of course the goal was stated on his arrival that was to be under the cap in 2010 but he also stated that he would put out a competitive team. Just based on their own goals not making the playoffs is a fail.

It's only natural that when the season starts off everyone's feeling good and confident about their chances. There was always a very small margin for error and we all know that. IT's not like we thought the team would be great. Many felt less than .500 and the rest thought they could get to .500. That's not a ringing endorsement for the team. DW and MDA rolled the dice and they came up snake eyes. The thing is that it still only hurts a little bit when you know that there's a chance to get the big prize. Nothing can take away the fact that we're a major player in this FA Market and that's a good thing.

Pharzeone wrote:The problem I have is that the threshold for the team changes to match the current situation. When they are losing all I hear is that the roster is horrible and it is about 2010 but when they win it is about the fantastic job Walsh and D'Antoni are doing. I didn't follow the team in the preseason but I do remember where both Walsh and D'Antoni proclaim that this team should be a playoff team and they were happy with the roster as well as the fact that they had a year together that they didn't have to worry about getting to know the system. Of course the goal was stated on his arrival that was to be under the cap in 2010 but he also stated that he would put out a competitive team. Just based on their own goals not making the playoffs is a fail.

Very close to being dead on there. They are great when things are going good and quick to blame the players when going bad--notice that? They also have had a free two year mulligan. And while we have two nice young players in the rotation--far far far from *rebuilding*. Also I find it funny that the management for the last several years are very quick to believe that we are better than we really are. The guys have tried--the roster is flawed. I think we could've done much better--but we didnt--that is on the coach. As far as the plan---come on--anyone is going to tell me you waste 2 seasons to sign 31 YO Joe Johnson to a max contract? There is one 2010 pla--LeBron or bust--hey it is what it is and maybe it will work--but anything less will not end up well IMHO.

nixluva wrote:

Pharzeone wrote:The problem I have is that the threshold for the team changes to match the current situation. When they are losing all I hear is that the roster is horrible and it is about 2010 but when they win it is about the fantastic job Walsh and D'Antoni are doing. I didn't follow the team in the preseason but I do remember where both Walsh and D'Antoni proclaim that this team should be a playoff team and they were happy with the roster as well as the fact that they had a year together that they didn't have to worry about getting to know the system. Of course the goal was stated on his arrival that was to be under the cap in 2010 but he also stated that he would put out a competitive team. Just based on their own goals not making the playoffs is a fail.

It's only natural that when the season starts off everyone's feeling good and confident about their chances. There was always a very small margin for error and we all know that. IT's not like we thought the team would be great. Many felt less than .500 and the rest thought they could get to .500. That's not a ringing endorsement for the team. DW and MDA rolled the dice and they came up snake eyes. The thing is that it still only hurts a little bit when you know that there's a chance to get the big prize. Nothing can take away the fact that we're a major player in this FA Market and that's a good thing.

Again here is my problem. We all know the playoffs are a pipe dream and it is about the summer of 2010. I actually get that. But why is management and coach reluctant to admit it though. There is no reason for Duhon to be starting on this team unless he is part of your future. No one is going to take him off your hands either. Giving Al Harrington any minutes this point going forward is absurd. Why is the team wasting time on players who they have no intention on keeping whether you get Lebron, Wade or not. Trust me at this point FAs know what this team is about and the players they have on the staff. Play Hill and Douglas and just be done with it. That's what I talking about the secondary goals are in constant flux on this team and it is really a problem. Buyout anybody you don't plan on keeping and you don't think have value. Bring in guys from the D-League. Rebuild if that is your intention. If they don't they will always be a year behind because they wasted roster space and playing time.

look, i want lebron, wade, bosh, etc.

and it made sense, given the reality of the nba (i.e. what is needed to be a real contender/not 2nd round exiter + chances of getting that kind of player draft/free-agency) to take a shot at them...

it's the other version of "tanking," which i find interesting that some struggle with understanding...

if you wanna win in the nba as a fan you have to...

SWALLOW YOUR PRIDE...

get over the mind state that has this idea that ny doesn't accept losing, etc. etc...

this that's part of the problem...and i don't want the knicks to keep losing either...

yes, the team has sucked for a while, but the reality is the knicks weren't just losing...

they were losing, but all the whilst trying to win!

meanwhile most bad teams lost, kept draft picks, made shrewd trades...all geared towards THE LONG TERM...

not 1 season or 2 seasons, or sometimes even 3 seasons...

the darling teams of hardcore nba fans, like the thunder, sucked for a few years, to allow them all those picks...to trade ray allen, let rashard lewis walk...

that team was pretty good at one point, but the team started losing after 04-05, eventually getting some player called durant in '07, and the owner wanted to move (steal) the team away from seattle to oak city, so he could let the team suck, and accumulate more high picks + had a pretty good gm in presti. however, presti i think also benefited from an owner who let him rebuild the traditional way...focusing on developing young players because there would not be pressure to win for YEARS...a year in seattle with no plans to stay...and then onto a new b-ball city with fans who would come to a bad team no matter what for a few years...

the point is, we as knick fans, if we are so smart, should see that some of the teams we envy are able to do what they did because of the lack of constant pressure to win from fans...

meanwhile, some of us are ranting and raving about a team that is filled with so many players that are not in long term plans, and that one off-season is somehow the only way out of the doldrums...

sure, we can starphuck again and overpay a bunch of 2nd tier stars to get us back to winning a bit, but be at the short end of the stick to someone else who didn't have the same pressure to win today rather than build for the long haul...

i will be disappointed if we do not get lebron or those other guys this summer, but if not, then we should just stick it out...

the good news is that despite the grumblings on forums like this, other longtime starved for a title romantic memory fans, and sports talk folks, the knicks still draw at MSG because of NYC's attractiveness to international residents and tourists who love basketball/ny and don't have the same attachments, and the knicks are still fairly irrelevant to even some sports fans locally (i hear yankees talk getting louder already a few days after the superbowl). i think this is helping walsh a bit, but i am not sure if that is enough if we don't get a big player this summer, as can be evidenced by the fears and anger expressed by some here.

my hope is some of us who are expressing this anger help our team by not going crazy if there is no lebron.

don't worry, i ain't counting my chickens...

Uptown wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Pharzeone wrote:The problem I have is that the threshold for the team changes to match the current situation. When they are losing all I hear is that the roster is horrible and it is about 2010 but when they win it is about the fantastic job Walsh and D'Antoni are doing. I didn't follow the team in the preseason but I do remember where both Walsh and D'Antoni proclaim that this team should be a playoff team and they were happy with the roster as well as the fact that they had a year together that they didn't have to worry about getting to know the system. Of course the goal was stated on his arrival that was to be under the cap in 2010 but he also stated that he would put out a competitive team. Just based on their own goals not making the playoffs is a fail.

Very close to being dead on there. They are great when things are going good and quick to blame the players when going bad--notice that? They also have had a free two year mulligan. And while we have two nice young players in the rotation--far far far from *rebuilding*. Also I find it funny that the management for the last several years are very quick to believe that we are better than we really are. The guys have tried--the roster is flawed. I think we could've done much better--but we didnt--that is on the coach. As far as the plan---come on--anyone is going to tell me you waste 2 seasons to sign 31 YO Joe Johnson to a max contract? There is one 2010 pla--LeBron or bust--hey it is what it is and maybe it will work--but anything less will not end up well IMHO.

Briggs, didnt you call out Cosmic with the thread title? Why not respond to the points he made in the very thread you created?

Because that would be difficult -- Koz lays out all valid points and Briggs wants to scream fire in a theater.

Great GMs don't panic -- patience is the # virtue.

The notion that 2010 is Lebron or bust is pure folly.

Why is that?

If Lebron stays in Cleveland --- so what.

We'll still be in the right position and have all kinds of options at our feet.

That includes the summer of 2011.

Cosmic wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Can you explain this one to me a bit--I mean if Lebron James DOES NOT come here--what exactly will be different other than we can go back to taking on obscene contracts for over rated players?

Simple.

We have the flexibility to sign whomever we deem worthy of a contract. We can even make trades for players already under contract and just absorb their contract.

We have stopped the horrible business practice of reloading the roster at the expense of expiring deals and picks.

We have put an end to the immaturity.

We have set the stage to build a brand new team from scratch - something we should have done many times in the past decade.

We now have ultimate flexibility.

2010 isn't LeBron or bust. Yet 2008 and 2009 were the years of making salary and malcontents go away. 08 and 09 weren't rosters you add to and expect to win. 08 and 09 weren't years to continue Isiah and Layden's mistakes of reloading the roster at the expense of financial flexibility. They were two necessary seasons of purging.

It's called rebuilding. First you put an end to the practices that got you in trouble in the first place. Then you make the mistakes go away. And then when you have a nice clean slate you start the practice of building up the new team. It just so happens we aligned our clean slate with one of the bigger FA crops in some time. It's not an all or nothing situation. It's a clean slate to start building a new team from. Putting yourself in a situation where you can start building that new team with a marquee free agent is a good thing. If it happens, great, if it doesn't fine. The point was to start over. We're doing that and it's great to see.

Not so certain what the confusion is.

Absolutely right.

People complained about Layden and Isiah because it seemed like they did not have plan. Donnie has a plan and he is sticking to it. It really is true that you can't rebuild in NY. Fans are too impatient.

Layden and Isiah has made an utter mess of this franchise. We don't really think that 1 or 2 years is going to fix things..do we?

One thing that I dislike is that our young players are not being developed, but I think this is also part of the plan. Donnie needs to pump up the value of Fishlips and Eddy and keep the trade value of the other expiring vets so he can package them with Fishlips and Eddy. Unfortunately, Fishlips is the only one they can pump the value. Eddy is a lost cause. This is similar to what they did the first year with Zach and Jamal.

LeBron is the top price but we have a lot of options after that. As Cosmic stated, we have a lot of flexibility and the future is better for it.

Even if we don't trade Fishlips or Eddy they expire next year and we are in contention again for the next sweepstakes (i.e. Carmelo). We can sign PG this summer that can help us.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2010021017

what evidence is there that lopez is anything more than empty numbers? chris kaman with a better haircut.