McK1 wrote:

TMS wrote:

McK1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:
They should be, considering where they were picked. Aside from TD who fell more due to being considered a short SG, both Hill and Gallo are legit lottery prospects.

what do you see us getting from from hill at 8 that the bulls aren't going to get from taj gibson at 16.

Jordan Hill has a better jumpshot for starters... Taj Gibson is a nice role player, plays tough defense & blocks shots, but that's pretty much all he is... Hill has the talent to be much more... he can be a scorer in the low post, he's already got a developed turn around J that he uses effectively which is tough to guard, & can stretch a defense w/his perimeter shooting ability... once he gets a handle on his footwork & on where he needs to be on the floor on defense, he can be a nice 2-way player for this team... i'm telling u this based on games i've watched him play in the NBA as well as all last year in college... i'd be highly shocked if all Jordan Hill ever became was a role player a-la Taj Gibson.

hill's turnaround was tough to guard when he wss shooting over 6'7 centers in college. we saw in the sl's he had alot of trouble getting that shot off over people his height. he gets no lift off the ground when performing that move nor does he get alot of extension on the shot. with no big man coach to help him here, I don't see that minus turning into a plus.

watching him on the bulls, taj gibson's straight away shot is as good as hill's. playing pick n pop thats the shot he'll see most anyway.

A center most people are wetting their pants over in the upcomming draft, that kid from kansas, cole aldrich. Got handled pretty good by Hill when they met in college. Aldrich looked too slow and just out manned by HIll.... so to say he was just shooting over 6'7 centers is ridiculous, and if you judge him by those standards then guys like brook lopez should be judged by the same, since he has a hard time with the big centers in the NBA right now..

tkf wrote:

McK1 wrote:

TMS wrote:

McK1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:
They should be, considering where they were picked. Aside from TD who fell more due to being considered a short SG, both Hill and Gallo are legit lottery prospects.

what do you see us getting from from hill at 8 that the bulls aren't going to get from taj gibson at 16.

Jordan Hill has a better jumpshot for starters... Taj Gibson is a nice role player, plays tough defense & blocks shots, but that's pretty much all he is... Hill has the talent to be much more... he can be a scorer in the low post, he's already got a developed turn around J that he uses effectively which is tough to guard, & can stretch a defense w/his perimeter shooting ability... once he gets a handle on his footwork & on where he needs to be on the floor on defense, he can be a nice 2-way player for this team... i'm telling u this based on games i've watched him play in the NBA as well as all last year in college... i'd be highly shocked if all Jordan Hill ever became was a role player a-la Taj Gibson.

hill's turnaround was tough to guard when he wss shooting over 6'7 centers in college. we saw in the sl's he had alot of trouble getting that shot off over people his height. he gets no lift off the ground when performing that move nor does he get alot of extension on the shot. with no big man coach to help him here, I don't see that minus turning into a plus.

watching him on the bulls, taj gibson's straight away shot is as good as hill's. playing pick n pop thats the shot he'll see most anyway.

A center most people are wetting their pants over in the upcomming draft, that kid from kansas, cole aldrich. Got handled pretty good by Hill when they met in college. Aldrich looked too slow and just out manned by HIll.... so to say he was just shooting over 6'7 centers is ridiculous, and if you judge him by those standards then guys like brook lopez should be judged by the same, since he has a hard time with the big centers in the NBA right now..

search last years draft topics. I didn't like lopez. whatever team takes cole adrich top 8 was likely in the lottery this year and the year prior and more than likely will be in the lottery next year and the year after.

casting my vote early: Minny will pick him.

oohah wrote:I forgot to mention that was through 3 quarters. He might go for 50 tonight.

Paraphrase: "Put me and Ricky Rubio in a gym together and see who comes out."

The kid wasn't lying. Birth of a star.

oohah

Jennings looks like a fantastic young G, but time will tell if he's the kind of player that will make his teammates better & that will help u win ballgames... i'm sure if u stuck Stephon Marbury in a gym w/Steve Nash or Jason Kidd in their heyday, Marbury would probably win a 1 on 1 without a problem, but tell me who you'd rather have leading your team... time will tell if Jennings can become that type of leader or if he's just another flashy G w/awesome skills but that doesn't elevate the level of his team's play on the basketball court.

oohah wrote:Unless Hill turns into Shawn Marion, Walsh flubbed this pick awfully.

Hill is not gonna turn into Shawn Marion, they're completely different types of ballplayers... if Hill grows into a very good player then Walsh would not have flubbed this pick... that's the only objective way to look at it... to single out the 1 player that has gotten off to a great start & say we messed up the pick cuz we didn't pick him is entirely unfair, especially after only a handful of games.

TMS wrote:

oohah wrote:Unless Hill turns into Shawn Marion, Walsh flubbed this pick awfully.

Hill is not gonna turn into Shawn Marion, they're completely different types of ballplayers... if Hill grows into a very good player then Walsh would not have flubbed this pick... that's the only objective way to look at it... to single out the 1 player that has gotten off to a great start & say we messed up the pick cuz we didn't pick him is entirely unfair, especially after only a handful of games.

I think you're taking me too literally. The point is that if hill doesn't become a pretty damn good player, Walsh flubbed up real bad. Especially because the Knicks did not need yet another power forward. The Knicks needed a point guard. There was only one to pick. Flub-a-dub-dub!

oohah

McK1 wrote:

TMS wrote:

no, i can tell u right now i would be ecstatic if we had a young PG like him on our team & i'm not saying i prefer Hill over him right now by any means... all i'm saying is i think Hill deserves a fair shake to show us what he can do over a long stretch & regular minutes before u bash the pick... Jennings looks great, who can't see that?

TMS wrote:

Jennings looks like a fantastic young G, but time will tell if he's the kind of player that will make his teammates better & that will help u win ballgames... i'm sure if u stuck Stephon Marbury in a gym w/Steve Nash or Jason Kidd in their heyday, Marbury would probably win a 1 on 1 without a problem, but tell me who you'd rather have leading your team... time will tell if Jennings can become that type of leader or if he's just another flashy G w/awesome skills but that doesn't elevate the level of his team's play on the basketball court.

why do you and nixluva keep trying to compare him to Steph? the bucks with jennings running the show look like no team steph or AI for that matter ever led. he is looking like he'll impact the game the way Isiah did if you wanna get into actual comparisons.

i compare him to Steph cuz he's a very talented young PG w/flashy skills, blazing quickness & ability to penetrate & get to the hole at will... he doesn't have the strength that Steph had obviously but i can see the similarities in his game... i have no idea if he'll grow into the knucklehead that Steph became but he's definitely a cokky kid, that much is clear... when Steph came into the NBA i thought he was an awesome young player w/supreme PG skills, but a little too cokky for his own good too.

like i said over time we saw that a guy w/not necessarily as good skills when u stack them up next to each other might effect the team more w/his leadership & ability to make other guys better on his team... right now, can u honestly say that Jennings is making other guys better on his team is all i'm asking... they're winning games right now, but is he raising the level of his teammates' play, or is he somewhat taking the games on his shoulders right now? that's my only question... Paladin55 also brings up a good point in another thread... strength of schedule also may have played a part in the Bucks' surprising start to their season

Records of teams played against:
Knicks- 49-44
Bucks- 26-42

Jennings is averaging 26 ppg this year & the next highest scorer on the team is Bogut at 16, with only 2 other guys in double figures after that... his assist average is gonna have to go up before u start considering him the type of PG that u wanna envision leading an MDA style offense... u want someone who can get his teammates involved before he looks for his own shot, at least i do, & it can't only be 1 teammate he gets involved... Jennings hasn't shown me he's that type of PG yet, & IMO for the Knicks to have longterm success, we need a balanced attack w/more than just 1 guy scoring the ball on every possession, i don't care if we have Lebron James on this team for that matter.

i have no doubt that Jennings is the goods talent wise & is already a star calibre scorer, it's pretty obvious... now we just gotta figure out if he can grow into the leader that his position demands & whether he can deal w/some adversity once he starts to struggle w/his shooting, cuz he's not gonna keep shooting 57% from 3 pt. range, that much is clear... that's gonna take a while to figure out... obviously i'd be gizzing in my pants if he was on our team right now but he ain't... i'm more focused on watching the kids we do have & i see some real promising things in Jordan Hill, & i think most Knick fans who watch the games will agree with me on that.

A) The Knicks need EVERYTHING, the most glaring needs are point guard and center. But centers don't run the offense, especially the vaunted D'Antoni offense! PG was the #1 need coming into this season. That is 100% fact, and it is re-enforced every_single_game.

B) I don't agree that Jennings has nobody to blame but himself for dropping. Pretty much every player picked in front of him had more rep, including those 2 burgers Curry and Rubio. Jordan Hill was the "huh?" Pick.

People asked Jennings a question and he answered cokcy. So what? He was right! The kid has swagger and we could use some of that. Don't hate.

C) I am not ignoring that Jordan Hill needs time to show his talents. What you seem to be ignoring is that we already have 4 dudes who play his position who he currently cannot beat out, and that is bad drafting regardless of whatever Jennings did.

And this is not about Jennnings dropping 55 against the Warriors. It's about not getting a PG when that is your most pressing need, and a promising PG has fallen into your lap. I'm not religious at all, but I respect "The hand of God"! Having a player of Jennings talent, who would have gone straight to the NBA if not for the age rule, at your position of greatest need, drop right into your lap is "The hand of God". If you don't respect "the hand of God", you will get slapped by it!

If Hill doesn't become a star, Walsh blew it while we watch better players flock to fukcing Milwaukee to play alongside Jennings, meanwhile Lebron and every other franchise player the Knicks are tanking for will use the Knicks as a bargaining decoy and resign with their own team, and all we have to show for it is our dick in our hands.

***

All this "give Hill time" while we watch this young star Jennings tear ass all over the NBA is sugarcoating. You go ahead and sugarcoat if you want to make the Hill pick more palatable.

In the meantime I will call it as I see it, and this is the most obvious call in a long time bro! And unless Jennings is secretly an axe-murderer, it is going to hurt for a long long time.

oohah

TMS wrote:actually to me it does seem like you're ignoring that Hill needs time to showcase his talents... or maybe i'm lumping ur opinions in too much with McK1... u do seem to be in the same boat when it comes to the Hill selection...

Showcase, schmocase. I don't care for the pick, correct, and he doesn't look so great so far.

& ur being ridiculously obtuse if u think Jordan Hill can't beat out Jared Fishlips or Darko because of talent or ability if that's what you're suggesting here...

Actually I am stating the fact Hill has not beaten them out it as of yet.

& at the time we drafted Hill it wasn't even known whether or not David Lee would even be here for that matter...

We did not know but I guarantee you Donnie Walsh did.

it's still not known whether he'll be here past this season & we don't know if Harrington will either... from the little run he's gotten so far Jordan Hill has shown skills & ability that are way superior to both Fishlips & Darko & he's not even fully up to speed w/the NBA game at this point...

A) No he hasbn't, and B) Both of those players were much more highly regarded as rookies. Both stars and Lottery picks. Darko has tons of ability, and Jeffries does too, he's just a spaz. In no way is Hill a better prospect than either of those guys as rookies.

just cuz MDA's not giving him minutes over those other guys doesn't mean he's not better than those guys dude... MDA's gotta try & get some kinda production out of Fishlips so he can try & pawn him off to some dumbass GM at the trade deadline... if Hill is still not seeing minutes over those guys past the deadline, then we have a serious problem.

I think MDA is playing the guys he thinks he might win with now.

& please bro, spare me this hand of God stuff... let's keep it to basketball.

I'm not trying to be nasty, but I think you have missed the point. This is a principle of life, which includes basketball. You can call it what you want, but when the exact thing you need is staring you in the face begging you to take advantage of the opportunity, you grab it or face the consequences. This chance was squandered.

***

Have a good night TMS. Let's hope that Hill is damn near a star. Anything less makes him a brutal pick.

oohah

TMS wrote:

i compare him to Steph cuz he's a very talented young PG w/flashy skills, blazing quickness & ability to penetrate & get to the hole at will... he doesn't have the strength that Steph had obviously but i can see the similarities in his game

Is Steph the only guard to come along at a young age with those traits?
Isiah had flashy skills, blazing quickness & ability to penetrate & get to the hole at will...what Steph never had that Jennings and Isiah do/did is the ability to seize the moment.

TMS wrote:

i have no idea if he'll grow into the knucklehead that Steph became but he's definitely a cokky kid, that much is clear... when Steph came into the NBA i thought he was an awesome young player w/supreme PG skills, but a little too cokky for his own good too.

so why keep comparing him to someone whose game is totally dissimlar? IMO it is to promote the same bs stereotype used in the summer to justify not considering drafting him.
sorry Steph burned you but let it go...the battered spouse syndrome is blinding you.

nothing wrong with having swag...he isn't on the court showing up opponents and teammates or his coaches. he loves the game has elite talent and wants to win plain and simple. NY needs someone to inject some confidence in the team and fear into the opponent.

TMS wrote:
like i said over time we saw that a guy w/not necessarily as good skills when u stack them up next to each other might effect the team more w/his leadership & ability to make other guys better on his team...

sounds like you're confusing the role of talent vs skill. Steph had more natural talent and physical ability. Nash Kidd and a bunch of others had more pg skill. What does that have to do with Jennings?

TMS wrote:

right now, can u honestly say that Jennings is making other guys better on his team is all i'm asking... they're winning games right now, but is he raising the level of his teammates' play, or is he somewhat taking the games on his shoulders right now? that's my only question...

Bogut: "Jennings has rejuvenated my career"

and can you name one top flight pg that has never taken a game on his shoulders?

TMS wrote:

Paladin55 also brings up a good point in another thread... strength of schedule also may have played a part in the Bucks' surprising start to their season

Records of teams played against:
Knicks- 49-44
Bucks- 26-42

you still have to play the games.

TMS wrote:

Jennings is averaging 26 ppg this year & the next highest scorer on the team is Bogut at 16, with only 2 other guys in double figures after that... his assist average is gonna have to go up before u start considering him the type of PG that u wanna envision leading an MDA style offense... u want someone who can get his teammates involved before he looks for his own shot, at least i do, & it can't only be 1 teammate he gets involved... Jennings hasn't shown me he's that type of PG yet, & IMO for the Knicks to have longterm success, we need a balanced attack w/more than just 1 guy scoring the ball on every possession, i don't care if we have Lebron James on this team for that matter.

have you seen their roster? they don't have scorers on that team.

why are he and bogut dominating the scoring? Redd has been out since miday gm 1 and outside of bogut posting, where he sees a double alot, skiles is high screening teams
to death with those two.

why is Jennings leading in scoring? teams are going under the screen and daring him to shoot. Skiles looks like Daly with the amount of pick n roll they are playing. Jennings is rising to the occasion and punishing teams for going under the screen. Also he is like Tony Parker in transition...too fast with the ball and too good at finishing to stop once he gets going.

the double nickels game he went to the line 8 times. he made 21 shots mostly jumpers not because he was jocking but because the GS game plan was to stay at home on everybody else and give him wide open jumpers...and he wasted not 1 second thinking abt what he should do. he was authoratative quick and decisive which is something Steph has never been. i implore you to actually watch the game. the one time they said ok thats enough and blitzed the screen he still got around the defender and hit bogut for a beautiful lob dunk. they then went back to making jennings beat them and thats exactly what he did.

what is a MDA offense? it can't be that special becaus he hand picked doody to run it here.

getting teammates involved? Ilyasova, Meeks were plenty involving in the ass kicking the bucks gave ny.

please watch a game, I'm sure the double nickels game will be replayed by nbatv b4 you state what he hasn't shown. You have no idea if he was here with more offensive players to pass to if he'd up his assist number. I'm very sure if he was here we'd have more wins.

TMS wrote:

i have no doubt that Jennings is the goods talent wise & is already a star calibre scorer, it's pretty obvious... now we just gotta figure out if he can grow into the leader that his position demands & whether he can deal w/some adversity once he starts to struggle w/his shooting,

funny you should mention that. he went scoreless in the 1st and was 4-13, 10 pts at the half. the second half he came out and hit 12 straight off the high screen with bogut including 4 or 5 threes. that 4th he started slow had a couple of turnovers then regathered himslef and put 16 more on the board including the clinching fre throws to finish a GS tean that just kept coming, kept making shots in their own right. THATS LEADERSHIP!

TMS wrote:

cuz he's not gonna keep shooting 57% from 3 pt. range, that much is clear... that's gonna take a while to figure out...

he isn't Arenas or Billups whose game is predicated on taking a whole bunch of 3's.

TMS wrote:

obviously i'd be gizzing in my pants if he was on our team right now but he ain't... i

is that just cause to continually question his character?

TMS wrote:

i'm more focused on watching the kids we do have & i see some real promising things in Jordan Hill, & i think most Knick fans who watch the games will agree with me on that.

Tony Douglas gets plenty of love. Ignoring the teams most glaring needs: a) a point guard and b) a franchise talent and watching him be both in Milwaukee will forever damn Hill.

Stern has to be loving this though. Thanks to NY, Milwaukee basketball is being revitalized. As far as the Don is concerned there is always a way NY can help...SMH

TMS wrote:

oohah wrote:C) I am not ignoring that Jordan Hill needs time to show his talents. What you seem to be ignoring is that we already have 4 dudes who play his position who he currently cannot beat out, and that is bad drafting regardless of whatever Jennings did.

actually to me it does seem like you're ignoring that Hill needs time to showcase his talents... or maybe i'm lumping ur opinions in too much with McK1... u do seem to be in the same boat when it comes to the Hill selection...

& ur being ridiculously obtuse if u think Jordan Hill can't beat out Jared Fishlips or Darko because of talent or ability if that's what you're suggesting here... & at the time we drafted Hill it wasn't even known whether or not David Lee would even be here for that matter... it's still not known whether he'll be here past this season & we don't know if Harrington will either... from the little run he's gotten so far Jordan Hill has shown skills & ability that are way superior to both Fishlips & Darko & he's not even fully up to speed w/the NBA game at this point... just cuz MDA's not giving him minutes over those other guys doesn't mean he's not better than those guys dude... MDA's gotta try & get some kinda production out of Fishlips so he can try & pawn him off to some dumbass GM at the trade deadline... if Hill is still not seeing minutes over those guys past the deadline, then we have a serious problem.

& please bro, spare me this hand of God stuff... let's keep it to basketball.

oohah along with some others are way overreacting here... I find it funny, in another thread, posters are ready to trade chandler for bayless and I think it was oohah who thought that was a fair trade. yet bayless can't get off their bench and couldn't get off then bench last year when they needed PG help.. heck they even went out and signed a PG... yet, guys on this forum are willing to trade a productive, young player for a guy who has proven no more than hill.. a guy they are bashing... go figure.... LOL

tkf wrote:oohah along with some others are way overreacting here... I find it funny, in another thread, posters are ready to trade chandler for bayless and I think it was oohah who thought that was a fair trade. yet bayless can't get off their bench and couldn't get off then bench last year when they needed PG help.. heck they even went out and signed a PG... yet, guys on this forum are willing to trade a productive, young player for a guy who has proven no more than hill.. a guy they are bashing... go figure.... LOL

Bayless is an up & coming young star, didn't u get the memo? only players we draft are busts... all other teams' prospects deserve the benefit of the doubt except ours... gotta love Knicks fans.