Posted by misterearl:

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firefly - overbearingly condescending?

I don't "need" to learn anything dude. Notice that the word racist was never used to fish.mike but his defense jumped to that level.

All I asked is whether he could put himself in Henry Louis Gates' shoes. Plain and simple. He could not.

What is "overbearigly condescending" about that?

Absolutely Nothing.

You provide a clear demonstration why discussions of race are difficult. Stubborn defenders of police behavior get stuck and defenders of HLG get stuck. Stuck with arbitrary labels and shaky defense of improper behavior.

"Overbearlingly condescending" or just citing a truth, like you, from my perspective?

Your reality MUST be more valid - correct?

I repeat. All I asked is whether he could put himself in Henry Louis Gates' shoes.

[Edited by - misterearl on 07-22-2009 09:51 AM]

fishmike - note that you identify with the police first.
You refer to Gates as "you" and the police as "I".

Now, just for kicks and giggles, try the reverse. Can you describe the Henry Louis Gates position as "I"?

I took this as massively condescending, regardless of the view being put forward. If you wanted to ask him to try and see things from Gates viewpoint, you could have just said that. Instead your words indicate that Fishys opinion stems from the fact that hes not black and he therefore does not understand what this man is going through and he sides with the cop because hes white and therefore Fishy might as well have been the cop himself.

Isnt the point that we should identify with black and white alike? We both agree that Fishmike isnt racist and that he is smart enough to know the history of racism. So why do you say that he doesnt understand the other POV and if only he did then he would realize how truly right you are?

Dont honestly how I ended up defending Fishy's corner. He doesnt need me for that. Ill butt out now shall I?

And BTW Earl, I do not find this discussion of race difficult. It is a topic I am passionate about, and I believe it to be stimulating and capable of resolution. I am hoping to resolve this issue as amicably as it started.

We're two guys pounding it out for a common goal. I think its great and discussions like this should be more commonplace. Dont you?

[Edited by - firefly on 07-22-2009 10:32 AM]

Posted by sebstar:

Yeah he should feel lucky that he wasnt beaten or tazed...I mean after all it was HIS house and he was doing nothing wrong, but he should feel lucky regardless.

Elderly black man who walks with a cane
Respected director of Harvard's W.E.B. Du bois Institute
Well-known member of the Civil Rights movement

... arrested for breaking into HIS OWN HOUSE after a long trip from China

The city of Cambridge issued a statement saying the arrest "was regrettable and unfortunate"

Why do this if Gates was acting so wild and crazy and the cop in question was completely in the right and going by the book?

You don't know what the hell that cop was doing or saying. This man is an esteemed professor at Harvard, he's not some street thug neanderthal, we have no idea what the cop said or did to aggravate him. All your excuses and blind defenses of the cop doesnt cut it, as its a clear example of you guys trying to fit the "blacks baselessly complain about racism" narrative into every situation.

[Edited by - sebstar on 07-22-2009 10:35 AM]

No, he shouldnt feel lucky he wasnt beaten or tazed, but he wasnt so Bitty complaining of Police state doesnt apply here.

He wasnt arrested for breaking into his own house. He was arrested for breaching the peace, which he admitted.

The police apologized because it was a dumb thing to do to arrest him in his attempt to make a scene and the whole situation can rightly be described as "regrettable and unfortunate".

I dont know what the cop did or said, but you equally dont know what Mr Gates did or said. Im not accusing him of acting like a neandethal street thug, Im saying he lost the plot and called it racism when it wasnt.

Nobody here thinks blacks baselessly complain about racism. We all know racism happens and when we find it, we do our best to destroy it. Here we have a guy who lost his temper, did something stupid and is now trying to cover up his dumbness by playing the racism card. His actions are disrespectful to the many many people who have legitimate beefs with the police or general population because of racism. Girl accuses a guy of rape when all he wanted to do was talk to her in the bar. Girls get raped sometimes so the guy must be a criminal? Or do you acknowledge that the girl lost the plot because of stories she heard about other girls being raped and started throwing false accusations around.

Mr Gates says in his own testimony that he was the only one talking about race. One of the cops was black. They arrested him for repeatedly calling them racist in the street. Id get arrested for that too, so would you and anyone else on this forum.

[Edited by - firefly on 07-22-2009 10:47 AM]

Bitty... do tell. Because the story seems pretty mixed up doesnt it? Gates says the cop ignored him. The cop says he gave Gates his name and badge #.

doesnt it seem to be Gate who is projecting? Doesnt Gates admit he's *assuming* its racially motivated?

So you believe that Gates is lying and cop is telling the truth. What you fail to understand is the perception (not necessarily flat our racism) but just the perception that this black man was pushing the door open. Whereas if he wasn't black I think common sense would have pervailed. A 58 year old man with cane, luggage, keyes, and a driver would have dictated that this clearly wasn't a robbery.

Looks like thats exactly what did happen no? The cop left his house. At that point it would have been over, and if Gates felt as humiliated as he said he could have filed a complaint, called the press, called whoever he wanted and dealt with it in an appropriate fashion.

The police are paid to deal with the public in the course of their job they might come across someone that will verbally challenge them. Whatever Gates may have said (he never physically threatened them or touched them) an arrest should have never happened period.

A police state? You have to be kidding me. Did they beat him? Mace him? Tazer him?

No... he wouldnt calm down and stop screaming threats so they cuffed him and put him in a cell to cool down.

Gates was right about one thing.. Its not that thats what happens to BLACK men in America. That happens to EVERY man in America.

Your logic is that becaue he accused the cop of racism and challenged him; then the cop is completely justified in arresting him. For what crime exactly... being an ******* or difficult with the police is not against the law. He didn't hit them, threatened to beat them up, spit in their face, etc.

If the cops had walked away not arrested him then okay. But to arrest him, place him in a holding cell, do a mugshot, is ridiculous. The police state comment is in reference to your idea that if a person verbally challenges an officer they should be locked up.

Apparently he got pissed and chased the cop BEFORE he got put in handcuffs.

Posted by BasketballJones:

Posted by kam77:

Posted by BasketballJones:

Posted by kam77:

Posted by bitty41:


After it was determined that he wasn't breaking into his own residence why was it necessary for him to be arrested?

Exactly what I'd like to know. What did he say to the cop. How did he say it? It's just like a Coach saying the magic word to a referree.

What was the cop doing other than his job for Gates to become so indignant and accusatory?

Here's my question to you: Why didn't the cop just leave?

I've dealt with cops. The worst thing you can do around them is keep yapping.

Check this:
After handing the officer both his Harvard and Massachusetts state identification, which included his address, Gates said he began to ask the officer this question, repeatedly. "I said 'Who are you? I want your name and badge number.' I got angry."

So by his own admission, Gates "got angry" and questioned "repeatedly". At some point the cop will react just like a ref would react. He's human too.

Moral of the story: Start a scene in your own house with a cop present -- fine.
But walk outside to angrily continue the dialog? That is apparently crossing the line.
You can see the cops trying to keep him calm in the pic.

He kept it real and got burned.

They'd have to keep me calm too if they were leading me from my own home in handcuffs for no reason.

nykshaknbake,

I would like to see a 58 year who walks with a cane chasing someone

one more thing firefly, thank you for your honesty

and yes, at the end of the day we can still shake hands

and then wring those same hands over the Knicks signing Ramon Sessions

Posted by misterearl:

Two Sides To Every Story

firefly - If you scroll back to the question as it was posed to your client fish,mike - nowhere did I inject race in the request of fish.mike to place himself in the position of Henry Louis Gates. As was evident, fish.mike immediately identified with the police ("I") as opposed to Henry Louis Gates ("you").

I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

I would challenge you or anyone else to identify the side they immediately assumed when the story broke. Then I would challenge anyone to change sides. That is the tough part. That is the part that demands an open mind and open heart.

fish.mike started with the denial of racism. Certainly, I respect what fish.mike had to say about it but the point remains, the story has TWO (valid) sides.

We can describe the thrill of the "hunt" from the perspective of the heavily armed hunter... or we can ask the defenseless lion what he thinks.

It would be similar to a man telling a woman why she cannot take control of her body. Something about that discussion might not resonate as valid in a womans brain.

That is not a simply a discussion of race, but begs the question whether one can truly assume a perspective of another (different) person. We all have preferences. Stated or otherwise. The question is can we transcend preferences that are programmed and learned?



[Edited by - misterearl on 07-22-2009 11:07 AM]

When you describe one side being a human and the other side being a lion, thats where we all get into trouble. Surely the point is to be able to empathise with two different people of different colour. I would like to think that I first identified the story as a case of police brutality, regardless of the color of the guy who got arrested, therefor identifying with Gates. When I realized the cops hadnt been brutal, I identified the story as a case of accused racism and identified with the police. I reject the assumption that Gates got arrested for being black. He got arrested for being dumb and the cops look dumb now because they shouldnt have arrested a 58 year old guy for being dumb.

And theres no point saying someone denied racism and therefore must have had a reason for having to articulate it. White folk have to declare what should be an inherent hatred of racism because, rightly or wrongly, black people always assume they are. I know why they assume that and appreciate the historical precedents thats lead them to always assume that. But I still dont think they should make that assumption. Call me naive, but I walk down the street and dont assume everybody hates jews, despite historical and personal precedents telling me otherwise.

I could be mistaken, but it is within Gates' rights to get the officer' badge number. The officer probably didn't want to relinquish that information because complaints go on your file and if the complaint is grave enough you can't advance. The cop demeanor was poor but its seems to me Mr. Gates projected this racial narrative. I don't see how this would've played out any differently if it was two white guys with backpacks and the pompous Harvard professor started talking down on the cop in front of his peers

[Edited by - supremecommander on 07-22-2009 11:39 AM]

Posted by SupremeCommander:

I could be mistaken, but it is within Gates' rights to get the officer' badge number. The officer probably didn't want to relinquish that information because complaints go on your file and if the complaint is grave enough you can't advance. The cop demeanor was poor but its seems to me Mr. Gates projected this racial narrative. I don't see how this would've played out any differently if it was two white guys with backpacks and the pompous Harvard professor started talking down on the cop in front of his peers

[Edited by - supremecommander on 07-22-2009 11:39 AM]

thats been my point all along. Gates is 100% in his right to ask for this. He's not in his right to threaten them, call them racist and yell to the point where the cops felt the need to cuff him. If Gates had any reason to think he was treated unfairly there were more effective channels to go through.

This kind of stuff doesnt help raise awareness of racism or the problem that exists. Its so counter productive to that end.

I mean, I hate to play this angle because its comes across as cliche and limits the convo to a degree, but experiences have informed us to view things from different angles. For many, they take the words from a cop as gospel and give him the complete benefit of the doubt. Others, such as myself, think a little differently and know though personal experiences, news stories, history, and anecdotes.

There is no question in my mind that the cop mistreated him and probably provoked him. Even if he didnt, which I highly doubt, there has actually been a racial profiling epidemic on the Harvard which no doubt came into play here:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/08/27/harvard_scrutinizing_its_police_on_race/?page=2

Trust, police departments dont issue public statements of apology for nothing.

Cops know how to rob Black men of their dignity. Could Gates have just cooperated and went about his business? Of course, but he was pissed and he was going to let the cop know it. I have seen white people mouth off to cops for far more trivial matters and not find themselves arrested and if Gates were white the cop probably would have been much more sympathetic and handled the situation far differently.

Gates lived through the civil rights movement and he wasnt going to give that cop an inch of his self-worth and bow his head just for attempting to enter his own home. He may not have been 100 percent right, but I stand behind Gates fully.