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21 Reasons Why Knicks Shouldn't Break Bank With David Lee
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Finestrg
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5/5/2009  12:32 PM
Posted by TMS:

not even borderline bro... it's just inexcusable to let this guy walk for nothing useful in return, i don't care what anyone says... whether that be a draft pick, a viable player that we can use, or the ability to dump 1 of our bad contracts, Walsh absolutely must make sure that he gets at least 1 of those if he doesn't intend on keeping Lee on this team over the longhaul.

I agree - it would be terrible to let this guy walk away for nothing. But I think finding a S&T for Lee is gonna be a lot tougher than we think. A lot of us agree that he's not worth the big money for us longterm - now Walsh has to work the phones hard to find a taker out there who thinks he is. And find a team that's ready to surrender a draft pick or two. And an expiring contract or two. Expiring contracts and draft picks are like gold now for an NBA team. It's gonna be tough to really get what we want back in a trade...

Walsh needs to find the right team that can utilize his skills and really take the next step by acquiring him. Portland continues to be a team that makes a lot of sense in a S&T scenario IMO, esp. with the way they went out in the playoffs this year. That Blazer team's young and talented but they're missing some key elements out there. They could definitely use his rebounding that's for sure. Oden might never be the player they thought, Aldridge is a good player but not great (definitely not a great rebounder), Prizbilla's a backup center and Frye's a bust who's not even a regular rotation guy. Their frontcourt could use some help. This is the team Walsh should trying to put something together with for Lee. Pritchard's shown interest in Lee in the past, I think they have the cap room to add him and they have quite a few assets I'd be interested in.

Plus I've said this on a few Lee posts in the past - you go out there and make the best S&T possible for the best assets you can get your hands on, forgo giving Lee $10+ million a season and sign a guy like Zaza Pachulia for $4-5 million a pop for a contract half as long as what Lee's looking for (say we give this guy a 2-3 yr. deal not a 5-6) to make up the difference on the glass and I'm cool with that. Pachulia can play a little as far as I'm concerned as we saw in this series with Miami. He had 12 pts. & 18 rebs. one game in this series. A year younger than Lee, legit 6'11" 265 lb... I mentioned his name on a thread for possible low-cost Lee replacements a few months ago and got laughed at. This guy's not an all-star by any means but if we're looking to replace Lee's rebounding for less than half the money David will be looking for, Zaza's an option that makes sense to me. He went for over 7 rebs/game this year for the Hawks in about 23 mins. - a few more mins. a game and this guy's a double-digit rebounder in the NBA. Not sure if he's a restricted FA or what but he's definitely someone I'd be interested in as a stopgap, low-cost replacement for Lee. Plus, like I've been saying, I'd go out there and get a low 1st/high second and grab a Taj Gibson as another guy to replace Lee's production -- this guy Gibson, with his ability to play and contribute on both sides of the ball (he can score down low with either hand, hit face-up jumpers out to 17', rebound the ball, run the floor and block shots at the defensive end - we haven't had a legit shot-blocker on this team since Marcus Camby - this guy was the Pac-10 defensive player of the year), Gibson will wind up being one of the biggest steals in this draft IMO, esp. if he goes in the second round. Gibson's a very good overall value package player that you can get a lot of bang for buck with. If they're smart, they trade Lee and come up with smart cost-effective ways to replace his production. Hey, if there were no options out there at all to replace Lee's production, you keep him and give him what he wants. But there are. Maybe better options for a much better price. We have a team to build here and can't break the bank to put all of our eggs in one player's basket esp. a player with limited upside, a player that's not even an all-star. That's my feeling on this...


[Edited by - finestrg on 05-06-2009 1:16 PM]
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Silverfuel
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5/5/2009  12:33 PM
Posted by TMS:

IMO breaking the bank is paying market value (~$9-10 mil per), cuz i don't believe he's worth that type of investment, no matter if that's what the market dictates or not... i would only wanna hold onto him longterm if we signed him to a below market contract, meaning $6-7 mil per, which i know is unrealistic & probably not gonna happen.
agreed
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MS
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5/5/2009  12:53 PM
No one is going to pay that for david lee.

Portland would have to trade a couple of guys to make that happen, Thunder? Memphis? Bobcats?

Milsap is a much better option and will be cheaper. I don't see a lot of teams going crazy. Teams are losing money, and I think Boozer gets 12 a year in this market, Shawn Marion 7 million, etc.

I think we are in better position than you think, I bet the guy takes a one year offer.
BRIGGS
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5/5/2009  1:08 PM
Posted by Andrew:

I think someone needs to define what exactly breaking the bank is....then you can all agree that you were saying the same thing all along and hugs for everyone.

I don't mind keeping Lee and I don't mind trading Lee[for the right price] I think that they can construct a fair contract using the 6th year and spacing the contract where he gets paid heavy in year 1--then shrinks in year 2 and goes up again. I think a fair price for Lee is 6 years 52mm$ something like 10 6.5 7.5 8.5 9.5 10.5--average contract 8.5mm--IF the MLE is avg close to 6 and a max contract is 13-14--I think 8.5 is fair value.
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jimimou
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5/5/2009  1:21 PM
this offseason will be one of the more intersting in recent memory in terms of a players 'value'. due to the economy, nba teams losing revenue, etc, owners are not going to be offering the same comp as they would say a year or two ago. so, if david is 'worth' 5 yrs at $50M, then my expectation is that he will get offers in the $40-45M range or for less years (3 yr contract vs 5 or 6), not because he is not worth it, but because economic uncertainty dictates that salaries will fall....the nba is a business and in any business, the effects of recession do show themselves (that's why contraction for some of the smaller clubs isnt out of the question either).

additionally, players will be handcuffed b/c its not like they can go elsewhere to play for better money other than europe and the fact remains that prime players want to showcase talent here not in some other country.

this is all heading to a lockout once the current cba is over. and, the possibility is amplified if the economoy continues to perform so poorly.

[Edited by - jimimou on 05-05-2009 1:22 PM]

[Edited by - jimimou on 05-05-2009 1:23 PM]
martin
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5/5/2009  1:24 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Andrew:

I think someone needs to define what exactly breaking the bank is....then you can all agree that you were saying the same thing all along and hugs for everyone.

I don't mind keeping Lee and I don't mind trading Lee[for the right price] I think that they can construct a fair contract using the 6th year and spacing the contract where he gets paid heavy in year 1--then shrinks in year 2 and goes up again. I think a fair price for Lee is 6 years 52mm$ something like 10 6.5 7.5 8.5 9.5 10.5--average contract 8.5mm--IF the MLE is avg close to 6 and a max contract is 13-14--I think 8.5 is fair value.

dont think you can't do that kind of up and down with salary.
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King1
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5/5/2009  1:54 PM
Please give me some players in the league that average over ten bounds shoots 50% for around 6-7 million you can get. The top players in the free agent class will get paid it is the middle of the road guys that wont
Pharzeone
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5/5/2009  1:59 PM
It should be interesting to see what Memphis offers because Wallace really likes Lee and has the cap space.
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TMS
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5/5/2009  2:12 PM
Posted by King1:

Please give me some players in the league that average over ten bounds shoots 50% for around 6-7 million you can get. The top players in the free agent class will get paid it is the middle of the road guys that wont

there aren't any... hence the reason why i said it wasn't realistic... just cuz a guy is hypothetically worth a certain dollar amount doesn't mean we should sign the guy King... Donnie's got a plan in place & locking up longterm dollars into D Lee doesn't seem to fit into that plan, unless he's got some contingency plan in place to dump Curry & Jefferies' contracts, & in order to do that u will need assets to offer as a sweetener.
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King1
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5/5/2009  2:18 PM
If it doenst fit in his plans why didnt he trade him during the year? I think he is in the plans
arkrud
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5/5/2009  3:16 PM
I hate to bring it up again but unfortunately bbal in not only about the game but more so about business.
And DLee will be a big money maker for Dolan regardless of his game.
So all you theories about what good for the team are worth nothing.
They will return 50 mils over 5 years easily only on tickets, endorsements, and commercials with Lee.
Add to it percentages from apparel and collectibles and you have profit right away.
And guy can also play and you can rely on him as a person... This is some bonus after Stephs, eddys, jeroms, Zacks, and upended list of others.
So like him or dislike him get used to have Lee around for a long while.
Sorry gs... If you hate him you need BIG SEND CLOSK.


[Edited by - arkrud on 05-05-2009 3:16 PM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 05-05-2009 3:17 PM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
TMS
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5/5/2009  3:47 PM
Posted by King1:

If it doenst fit in his plans why didnt he trade him during the year? I think he is in the plans

maybe... we'll see next year... i'm just going off what Walsh has said since he got here... he said he wanted to preserve that cap space first & foremost... if Lee was in the plans all along he wouldn't have been shopping him around the league to try & dump Curry's contract tho, now would he?

[Edited by - TMS on 05-05-2009 12:48 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
martin
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5/5/2009  4:00 PM
Posted by King1:

Please give me some players in the league that average over ten bounds shoots 50% for around 6-7 million you can get. The top players in the free agent class will get paid it is the middle of the road guys that wont

on the other side of things... Please name me some players in the league that make more than $7M that have a 5 year deal that don't play defense and are horrid weak side defenders.
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Pharzeone
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5/5/2009  4:24 PM
Posted by arkrud:

I hate to bring it up again but unfortunately bbal in not only about the game but more so about business.
And DLee will be a big money maker for Dolan regardless of his game.
So all you theories about what good for the team are worth nothing.
They will return 50 mils over 5 years easily only on tickets, endorsements, and commercials with Lee.
Add to it percentages from apparel and collectibles and you have profit right away.
And guy can also play and you can rely on him as a person... This is some bonus after Stephs, eddys, jeroms, Zacks, and upended list of others.
So like him or dislike him get used to have Lee around for a long while.
Sorry gs... If you hate him you need BIG SEND CLOSK.


[Edited by - arkrud on 05-05-2009 3:16 PM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 05-05-2009 3:17 PM]

I'm sorry I must've miss those Nike commercials starting David Lee. Good for business? The Knicks were selling out games before Lee and will sell out games after Lee. Lee has no impact on such things. Lee was close to getting traded twice under Walsh so far. They don't view his "commercial" impact the same way you do and truth be told not many others do as well. Donnie on Lee and Nate "some players are good at certain numbers and not good at others" At $6 million a year Lee is good and $8-$10 million not good.
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King1
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5/5/2009  5:54 PM
Martin I already did a post on what perimeter players scorched us all year so it isnt all Lee. We had one game 3 perimeters players from the Wizards got 20 a game. We will see what MDA and Walsh think aboout Lee in a couple of months and I am guessing he is getting paid
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5/5/2009  6:04 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by arkrud:

I hate to bring it up again but unfortunately bbal in not only about the game but more so about business.
And DLee will be a big money maker for Dolan regardless of his game.
So all you theories about what good for the team are worth nothing.
They will return 50 mils over 5 years easily only on tickets, endorsements, and commercials with Lee.
Add to it percentages from apparel and collectibles and you have profit right away.
And guy can also play and you can rely on him as a person... This is some bonus after Stephs, eddys, jeroms, Zacks, and upended list of others.
So like him or dislike him get used to have Lee around for a long while.
Sorry gs... If you hate him you need BIG SEND CLOSK.


[Edited by - arkrud on 05-05-2009 3:16 PM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 05-05-2009 3:17 PM]

I'm sorry I must've miss those Nike commercials starting David Lee. Good for business? The Knicks were selling out games before Lee and will sell out games after Lee. Lee has no impact on such things. Lee was close to getting traded twice under Walsh so far. They don't view his "commercial" impact the same way you do and truth be told not many others do as well. Donnie on Lee and Nate "some players are good at certain numbers and not good at others" At $6 million a year Lee is good and $8-$10 million not good.

The important year is 2010. All the rest nobody cares.
And yes - if Lee will be out some white boys and girls will not buy tickets.
You need to assotiate yourself with the player... and it is nothing to do with race.
Fans want to see some dude which looks alike.
But on other hand it will be more hockey fans in NYC. So its good eather way.




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King1
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5/5/2009  6:14 PM
Eddy Curry has a bigger deal and he isnt known as a defensive stalwart and Jerome James is another that had a five year deal
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5/5/2009  6:17 PM
Posted by King1:

If it doenst fit in his plans why didnt he trade him during the year? I think he is in the plans

He tried. He said "If you want David Lee then you take Eddy Curry."

That is the value that Walsh saw in Lee: A chance to dump Curry's 2011 contract.

As a side note what he saw in Nate was a chance to dump Jeffries' contract.

Lee was there for the taking but the price was high. Teams refused. That's fine. We now know that taking Lee wasn't enough to dump Curry.

As to Lee, yes, I agree he is in the plans, but at the RIGHT PRICE. How many times have we heard Walsh say that a guy is good at one price but at another he's not so good? Those are hints that Lee will be a Knick for the right price. That price is likely starting a 7 or 8M per year at MAX. Even then we're really pushing it cap wise given our plan.

Posted by martin:


on the other side of things... Please name me some players in the league that make more than $7M that have a 5 year deal that don't play defense and are horrid weak side defenders.

...and cannot create for themselves offensively. Are actually already slowing down and losing their hops. Are not physically strong (He's Brad-Miller-Ish there's no legit body strength there). Gets blocked more than anyone I've ever seen when trying to lay a ball up. Commits numerous inexcusable turnovers off of lazy soft passes when all he had to do was pass the ball crisply - and what's worse is that he actually does have good court vision but is just a soft passer - there's no zing on the pass. How many times does he steal a ball on a broken play but immediately passes it to the other team right back?

I mean, I like Lee, I like the idea of home grown talent, but the guy is just not worth the money his PPG/RPG stats dictate he's worth.
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5/5/2009  6:19 PM
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by King1:

If it doenst fit in his plans why didnt he trade him during the year? I think he is in the plans

He tried. He said "If you want David Lee then you take Eddy Curry."

That is the value that Walsh saw in Lee: A chance to dump Curry's 2011 contract.

As a side note what he saw in Nate was a chance to dump Jeffries' contract.

Lee was there for the taking but the price was high. Teams refused. That's fine. We now know that taking Lee wasn't enough to dump Curry.

As to Lee, yes, I agree he is in the plans, but at the RIGHT PRICE. How many times have we heard Walsh say that a guy is good at one price but at another he's not so good? Those are hints that Lee will be a Knick for the right price. That price is likely starting a 7 or 8M per year at MAX. Even then we're really pushing it cap wise given our plan.

Posted by martin:


on the other side of things... Please name me some players in the league that make more than $7M that have a 5 year deal that don't play defense and are horrid weak side defenders.

...and cannot create for themselves offensively. Are actually already slowing down and losing their hops. Are not physically strong (He's Brad-Miller-Ish there's no legit body strength there). Gets blocked more than anyone I've ever seen when trying to lay a ball up. Commits numerous inexcusable turnovers off of lazy soft passes when all he had to do was pass the ball crisply - and what's worse is that he actually does have good court vision but is just a soft passer - there's no zing on the pass. How many times does he steal a ball on a broken play but immediately passes it to the other team right back?

I mean, I like Lee, I like the idea of home grown talent, but the guy is just not worth the money his PPG/RPG stats dictate he's worth.

Yo Cos, you got an email or AIM or anything I can contact you at?
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
Pharzeone
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5/5/2009  6:20 PM
Posted by arkrud:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by arkrud:

I hate to bring it up again but unfortunately bbal in not only about the game but more so about business.
And DLee will be a big money maker for Dolan regardless of his game.
So all you theories about what good for the team are worth nothing.
They will return 50 mils over 5 years easily only on tickets, endorsements, and commercials with Lee.
Add to it percentages from apparel and collectibles and you have profit right away.
And guy can also play and you can rely on him as a person... This is some bonus after Stephs, eddys, jeroms, Zacks, and upended list of others.
So like him or dislike him get used to have Lee around for a long while.
Sorry gs... If you hate him you need BIG SEND CLOSK.


[Edited by - arkrud on 05-05-2009 3:16 PM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 05-05-2009 3:17 PM]

I'm sorry I must've miss those Nike commercials starting David Lee. Good for business? The Knicks were selling out games before Lee and will sell out games after Lee. Lee has no impact on such things. Lee was close to getting traded twice under Walsh so far. They don't view his "commercial" impact the same way you do and truth be told not many others do as well. Donnie on Lee and Nate "some players are good at certain numbers and not good at others" At $6 million a year Lee is good and $8-$10 million not good.

The important year is 2010. All the rest nobody cares.
And yes - if Lee will be out some white boys and girls will not buy tickets.
You need to assotiate yourself with the player... and it is nothing to do with race.
Fans want to see some dude which looks alike.
But on other hand it will be more hockey fans in NYC. So its good eather way.

Are you serious? You make a thread that is entirely based on race then says it has nothing to do with race? If your reason for keeping Lee is to market to white fans then you have a poor view of Knick fans and their history.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
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