Posted by BigC:
Posted by OffDaMeterzzzz:
They really do need to put an age limit. I say age 21, or 4 years post high school. That way player's are given the appropriate instruction and time to participate in a professional league. The NFL has a minimum 3 year post high school limit I believe. I know the NBA is not the NFL, but there are very few Lebron's and Kobe's compared to the ridiculous amount of unprepared athletes who have ruined the NBA. Even Kobe and KG struggled mightily their rookie years largely due to their youth and lack of preparation.
There are no more legends in today's game in contrast to the abundance of legends in the past.
You really think 4 years of post high school would have helped Chris Bosh, Allen Iverson, Shawn Kemp, or Even Chris Webber? I don't think so. Players learn from experience. The faster they get in the NBA the quicker they will be to get adjusted to the game. You mentioned that Kobe and KG struggled their first year, however was that do to them coming straight out of high school or was it do to them not being immediate starters? Most players get from the new skills in the offseason and getting playing time. During the season is when they apply what they have learned during the summer and test out their new skills.
KG and Kobe were not immediate starters that's why the process was slow their first year. The Lakers knew that Eddie Jones who was starting over Kobe was not better than Kobe and that's why he was given the boot. The following year you saw Kevin Garnett and Kobe's number jump up. This is the main reason why you see rookies that start their first year play good compared to a player that has to be worked into the system.
Look at the previous stars in the NBA:
Ewing, Jordan, Barkely, Isiah, Malone, Stockton, Bird, Magic, Olajuwon, Drexler, Pippen, Kemp, Payton, Shaq, David Robinson, Miller, Dominique, KJ, Mourning, Worthy, Jabbar, Parish, Mchale, Mutombo, Dumars, Aguire and probably much more that dont come to mind right now.
Today's stars:
Kobe, Lebron, Wade and Duncan- that's it. Noone else to me is that impressive. Stoudemire, Howard and Nowitzki are good player's but not special in my eyes. They don't have any moves or leadership qualities.
You mentioned great players and you included Shawn Kemp. Shawn Kemp did not go to college. He was straight out of HS.
You have no proof that college will make these player better. This is a fantasy that these college coaches are sitting down with these player working on their game all day. In the NBA players have more coaches, equipment, and video to help team succeed. Jared Jeffries went to college. As a matter of fact he went to one of the top colleges at that time. Did college help him get his shot together?
You also mentioned the great players of the past but yet you forgot that everyone of those great players played with another good player. Many of the stars today do not get a chance to play with other good stars. You mentioned (Isiah, Dumars, Aguire), (Malone and Stockton), (Bird, Mchale, Parrish), (Kevin Johnson and Barkley),( Jordan and Pippen),) Kemp and Gary Payton), ), (Magic Worthy, Kareem,) all of these players had a chance to play with other superstars. Only Dominique did not play with great players.
Many of the players today do not have that opportunity to play with other good players. The problem with the league is too many teams. Back in the days you had less teams so there would be more talent to spread around. Look at the Celtics, people considered them one of the best teams to play and look how long it took for them to get good. If there were less teams you would not have to worry about a Kevin Garnett waiting years to join a good team like the Celtics because he probably would have gotten drafted by a team that already had star players. The same thing with Paul Gasol and Chris Bosh and many others.
Expansion of teams is what is pulling the league down not players coming out of college quick or not going to college.
The NBA wants to make money off expanding teams. Then they say there is no talent. The NBA and NCAA are sleeping in bed together. Remember it was not to long ago that people said they did not watch college basketball. Now there is a rule to force players to stay in college so fans are see talent on tv and the ratings are back up.
They don't have any moves or leadership qualities
Really? What go to move did David Robinson have compared to a one year player like Bosh or J O'Neal? David Robinson only had two moves as well as Malone. David pattern move was his jumpshot at the foul line. His next move was dribbling to his left and scoring a bucket. Karl Malone did the pick and roll with another Hall of Famer in John Stockton. Do you think David Robinson was a leader right away? His is the same David Robinson that was scared to play against Hakeem. He did not even want to guard him. He wanted Dennis Rodman to do it. Real leadership there. He developed into a leader towards the end of his career and that comes with experience in the league. Not going to college or hanging out in the D-League for 4 years.
I agree the game has completely gone soft and the officiating and rules has completely destroyed and taken over the game. It's all the same crap.
The only thing that I think that needs to go is the zone defense. Learn how to play defense. Keep out this real illegal defense. If you watch tapes of Michael Jordan's first interveiw of why he is so successful in the NBA he said, "There is no zone in the NBA."
People complain that the league is soft but then when someone hits a player they are ready to cry. Look at people's reaction when David Lee got hit by Amare or when Tractor hit Gallinari. Do you really want to see hard fouls?
Player's now just trade baskets, have no post game, no mid range game, play no defense, no go to moves, no arsenal and reportoire of moves, no hook shot. It's all about looking cool, dunking and spotting up for 3's. When the 3 point line came out in 1979, players avoided it like a disease.
Are you really watching the players today or just the Knicks? Also you are talking about jacking up shots but you mentioned Jordan and Dominique as great players do you see the contradiction. That's all the did earlier in their careers. Remember Jordan did not really develop until around 28 and 29 years of age. If Jordan had never had a coach like Phil Jackson he probably would have been just like Allen Iverson because Doug Collins favorite play was,"Give the dam ball to Jordan and get the hell out the way."
[What happened to working hard to keep your man in front of you? What happened to help/team defense, full court pressure, press, good man to man defense?
Full court press does not work in the NBA because players are too talented. You have point guards and small forward that will break the press with easy. Even with a bad team like the Knicks there were few teams that tried to put pressure on the Knicks like the Hornets and it did not work. Again the Knicks do not reflect the rest of the league.
Why can't teams (especially the Knicks) play defense when you have college teams that play their hearts out on D and don't even get paid for it.
I think that is your problem right there. You are looking at the league base on the Knicks. If the Knicks were winning like they did in 1999 would you really be complaining? I have friends that are diehard Celtics fans and they complained about how the league sucks. As soon as the Celtics won a title they are are telling me that this Celtics team that just won is just as good as the old Celtics team.
Defense has always been bad for bad teams whether you are talking about 2009 or 1990. Do you really think the bad Clippers team of the past are any different from the Clippers today?
Again less teams and you see better productivity on the court. Teams played bad back in the days. The difference is no internet and Espn showing it 24 hours a day.
Why not wait and see how these new players finish their careers before you start blasting them. Remember the players of the past you got a chance to evaluate their whole NBA career. Compared that to a player that has not even reached their peak.
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[Edited by - BigC on 04-17-2009 11:47 AM]
[Edited by - BigC on 04-17-2009 7:54 PM]
Your right, I don't have any proof that college helps develop athletes into better players.
However, Webber and Iverson had some time in college ball. Iverson stayed at G-Town for 3 years I believe as did Webber (2 or 3 years at Michigan). I think Iverson would have been even more out of control w/o his NCAA experience. Social development and maturity are developed during our later teens and early twenties and beyond. Enough with the babies running the league and being given the keys without earning their opportunities.
Regarding Bosh and Kemp- yes I do believe that some college ball experience could have helped develop them into better players. There is no harm in getting your education and professional foundation in college. It is not a coincidence that the past players usually had 3-4 years of college experience under their belt and were already 21-22 years old. Today the NBA is filled with very low IQ basketball players in contrast to past decades.
The NBA should not be a babysitter's club to develop raw, unskilled, unprepared talent. The NCAA, NBDL and overseas institutions are there for that. Today's players should not use the NBA to develop themselves when they could have done that playing college ball. That does not mean they can't develop in the NBA either. It means they should learn the game, gain knowlege books, athletics, learn accountability, responsbility and be prepared to become a professional. Many of us have to go to college, trade school, graduate school or learn a trade just the same.
I feel Kobe and Garnett struggled from a combination of being very young, rookies with great expectations on them. Some college and life experience would have definitely mitigated some of their hardships. I am only 26 and have seen myself grown mentally tremendously from 18 to 22 to 26. 18, 19 is way too young for athletes to grow metally, emotionally and accountable at the professional level. That is what college is for. There are very few Kobe's, Lebron's and Garnett's, who with extremely hard work were able to persevere.
Jared Jeffries certainly did not get his jump shot together or a layup for that matter. Yes, IT had Dumars, Rodman, Jordan had Pippen .... everyone had their sidekicks or Robins. The league is filled with too many pusses to have teams filled with Batmans and Robins. The referee's need to start keeping their whistles in their mouths and allow these "men" to play physical baskeball, not little league basketball. The current Lakers Nuggets series are the first playoff or regular season games I have ever seen in many years where players were allowed to play real physical contact basketball.
I agree that expansion has definitely not helped the league, however I do feel this 1 yr. of college or straight from high school business has destroyed the league as well. Athletes, entertainers and regular average joe's like you and I need time to grow up and develop. This is very common during our late teens and early 20's ie. college years. Why should professional basketball be a stomping ground for underdeveloped projects and athletes lacking any fundamentals?
Sure leadership is not necessarily developed in college or the D league. However, a person's character and maturity is put to the test and built up during college and D league. Team leader's generally exhibit these values.
Bosh and J. O'neal- I could not even put in the same sentence as Malone and Robinson. Bosh and O'neal are good players. Malone and Robinson were great players.
Yes I want to see hard fouls. The player's cry because the league has conformed to the soft policy. As Clyde says "they don't make players like they used to anymore" This is basketball. Hard fouls are a part of the game.
Sure Jordan, got better at age 28, 29 and with Phil as his coach. He learned that jacking up shots wasnt the key to success. We want to see players mature and become better. Does this mean that his 3 years at NC were a waste and not helpful? I am sure he learned a thing or two about life and playing for Dean Smith. Even after college players are usually 21-22 which is still young. Young players will struggle and hopefully improve, however it doesnt hurt to have a foundation (education, maturity, development, responsibility) to build on.
Nearly the whole league avoids playing defense today. Not just a few like in 1990. Watch the Allstar game from 1990 please. Then watch today's.
The NBA has definitley watered down since Jordan left. You think I just look at the universe through the Knicks. I REGULARLY watch other teams play on ESPN, TNT and NBA TV. I am talking about the whole NBA with occassional references to the Knicks because we are so familiar with them- afterall this is Ultimate Knicks.
I listed a number of great players from the 80's and 90's.
The list of great players from this decade is miniscule. No peak or finished career needed.
Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Wade- who else? ???? I don't even think Howard is all that great. He is good and getting better- we shall see. Until now, all he can do on offense was dunk.
Amare- plays no D, not same monster player since injury
Dirk- softie
KG- captain bravado does not finish games. Pierce does.
Allowing physical play again is mandatory. You can tell some teams and players want to play physical again, espeically the Nuggets.
I like the ideas I listed and I like the board's idea of contraction. Something has to be done.
How about smaller contracts with less money. These multi million contracts belong to Kobe, Lebron... Wade... players who take you to the playoffs on their back. Not athletes who havent done jack- also destroying the NBA.
4/20/2009 8:22 PM