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Knicks eye Anthony Randolph; Briggs gets funny feeling in his pants
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newyorknewyork
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2/13/2009  12:56 PM
Yea hes only had a 2 1/2 month head start.
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SlimPack
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2/13/2009  12:59 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

Funny, Anthony Randolph gets you 9 points, 10 rebounds in 14 minutes in a win against Portland last night while playing with probably two and 1/2 of the biggest ballhogs in the league, for a coach who doesn't like him. Yet we are concern that our 1st round pick isn't given enough minutes which is more than what Randolph is getting for a coach that loves him. At the end of the day, this leaves you scratching your head. What's the problem here.

People want more minutes for him so he can develop. They want him to be allowed to play through mistakes despite the effect it would have on winning the game, so he can develop faster. I don't know if that's the best approach or not, but I don't see anything wrong with that. GS fans probably want Randolph playing more too.
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2/13/2009  1:01 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Yea hes only had a 2 1/2 month head start.

Two months head start. Wait I thought the argument was that we can't judge Randolph because like Gallinari he hasn't done anything while just sitting on the bench. You guys have to keep these arguments consistent now. Yeah, Randolph and Bayless couldn't get into games so that's why we couldn't jump to conclusions remember? Now all three guys are getting similar playing time and funny enough about the same time. If Gallinari was the BPA and played at a much higher level in the EL, why wouldn't he have the advantage over the likes of Randolph? They are both similar in age and Gallinari has 15 points on Randolph.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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2/13/2009  1:04 PM
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by Pharzeone:

Funny, Anthony Randolph gets you 9 points, 10 rebounds in 14 minutes in a win against Portland last night while playing with probably two and 1/2 of the biggest ballhogs in the league, for a coach who doesn't like him. Yet we are concern that our 1st round pick isn't given enough minutes which is more than what Randolph is getting for a coach that loves him. At the end of the day, this leaves you scratching your head. What's the problem here.

People want more minutes for him so he can develop. They want him to be allowed to play through mistakes despite the effect it would have on winning the game, so he can develop faster. I don't know if that's the best approach or not, but I don't see anything wrong with that. GS fans probably want Randolph playing more too.

No problem with that but why is he still producing so little given similar playing time and being in an ideal situation for him? Those minutes were there for him in that Clipper game.

[Edited by - pharzeone on 02-13-2009 1:05 PM]
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
newyorknewyork
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2/13/2009  1:18 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Yea hes only had a 2 1/2 month head start.

Two months head start. Wait I thought the argument was that we can't judge Randolph because like Gallinari he hasn't done anything while just sitting on the bench. You guys have to keep these arguments consistent now. Yeah, Randolph and Bayless couldn't get into games so that's why we couldn't jump to conclusions remember? Now all three guys are getting similar playing time and funny enough about the same time. If Gallinari was the BPA and played at a much higher level in the EL, why wouldn't he have the advantage over the likes of Randolph? They are both similar in age and Gallinari has 15 points on Randolph.

Gallinari was out with a back injury. Gallinari wasn't able to play or practice with the team. Gallinari was hardly able to work on his game while his back was acting up since the first game of summer league. Randolph on the other hand even if he wasn't getting big mins was still able to practice with the team. Randolph was still able to put in way more work then Gallinari could possibly put in because Gallinari had obvious limitations. So *when comparing him to Gallinari* he still had a 2 1/2 month head start.

Its funny to me how you feel that Randolph was worthy of the #6 pick, And how he is so much more talented then Gallinari. But yet you don't even hold Randolph to the standards that you hold Gallinari. You say things like Randolph is playing with ball hogs and his coach hates him. You act as if Gallinari is having everything served to him on a silver platter while Randolph is the one with the bad breaks conveniently forgetting that Gallinari missed 2 months with a back injury. You act as if Gallinari is being force fed the ball while Randolph is fighting for shots.

As Ive said before though its all about the work ethic and drive to be great. Thats the only thing that will seperate which players will be good and which one will be bust or average. All these other things about mins and 9pts in 14mins 10rebs in 16mins don't mean jack.
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SlimPack
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2/13/2009  1:24 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by Pharzeone:

Funny, Anthony Randolph gets you 9 points, 10 rebounds in 14 minutes in a win against Portland last night while playing with probably two and 1/2 of the biggest ballhogs in the league, for a coach who doesn't like him. Yet we are concern that our 1st round pick isn't given enough minutes which is more than what Randolph is getting for a coach that loves him. At the end of the day, this leaves you scratching your head. What's the problem here.

People want more minutes for him so he can develop. They want him to be allowed to play through mistakes despite the effect it would have on winning the game, so he can develop faster. I don't know if that's the best approach or not, but I don't see anything wrong with that. GS fans probably want Randolph playing more too.

No problem with that but why is he still producing so little given similar playing time and being in an ideal situation for him? Those minutes were there for him in that Clipper game.

[Edited by - pharzeone on 02-13-2009 1:05 PM]

I wouldn't say that the situation is particularly ideal for him, Also I'm guessing MikeD took him out of the clipper game because he was taking bad shots, and they weren't falling. Well that's what I thought watching that game anyway. Gallinari Isn't playing very well right now, He's got a good shot, but he isn't very good on defense and looks slow on offense.

As for why Randolph and other rookies are performing better, I dunno. They have somewhat more NBA experience (Summer League plus 2 or months), but it's probably mostly just Gallinari being really raw and being more poorly suited to play the NBA game right now (In terms of Speed, Strength, etc..). I don't necessarily think that means that guys Like Randolph and Bayless will have better careers though. They seem to be off to better starts but I don't think you can always judge how good a rookie will be in his career just off of his rookie season (i.e. Channing Frye), and I think Gallo has a lot of room for improvement.

Of course there may come a time where I'd lose my patience with Gallo's improvement because I do think he needs to improve a certain amount in the next year or so, to justify his draft position, but that time hasn't come for me yet. I'm not too concerned about him looking worse than the other draft picks 2/3 into his rookie season.
Paladin55
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2/13/2009  1:27 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:


No problem with that but why is he still producing so little given similar playing time and being in an ideal situation for him? Those minutes were there for him in that Clipper game.

[Edited by - pharzeone on 02-13-2009 1:05 PM]

It was nice to see him hit something else than a 3, and I thought they were going to give him more minutes in that game, but then I saw him near the end of his stint in the 1st half. Whatever the reason was, his legs were shot. I know it was a back to back game, and he has not been playing that much since he came back from the injury, but I was a bit surprised that he would lose his legs after 10 minutes in the first half. I fell asleep, and could not see the second half, but when I saw he only played a few minutes the rest of the game, I was not surprised.

I just think that at the very least, his endurance should be better at this point.
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tkf
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2/13/2009  1:29 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Yea hes only had a 2 1/2 month head start.

Two months head start. Wait I thought the argument was that we can't judge Randolph because like Gallinari he hasn't done anything while just sitting on the bench. You guys have to keep these arguments consistent now. Yeah, Randolph and Bayless couldn't get into games so that's why we couldn't jump to conclusions remember? Now all three guys are getting similar playing time and funny enough about the same time. If Gallinari was the BPA and played at a much higher level in the EL, why wouldn't he have the advantage over the likes of Randolph? They are both similar in age and Gallinari has 15 points on Randolph.

Gallinari was out with a back injury. Gallinari wasn't able to play or practice with the team. Gallinari was hardly able to work on his game while his back was acting up since the first game of summer league. Randolph on the other hand even if he wasn't getting big mins was still able to practice with the team. Randolph was still able to put in way more work then Gallinari could possibly put in because Gallinari had obvious limitations. So *when comparing him to Gallinari* he still had a 2 1/2 month head start.

Its funny to me how you feel that Randolph was worthy of the #6 pick, And how he is so much more talented then Gallinari. But yet you don't even hold Randolph to the standards that you hold Gallinari. You say things like Randolph is playing with ball hogs and his coach hates him. You act as if Gallinari is having everything served to him on a silver platter while Randolph is the one with the bad breaks conveniently forgetting that Gallinari missed 2 months with a back injury. You act as if Gallinari is being force fed the ball while Randolph is fighting for shots.

As Ive said before though its all about the work ethic and drive to be great. Thats the only thing that will seperate which players will be good and which one will be bust or average. All these other things about mins and 9pts in 14mins 10rebs in 16mins don't mean jack.

great point. great post.. and then you have briggs spewing things like, if his shot isn't falling he won't be in the game, yet, gallanari scored his only two baskets in the post the other night, which is a facet of his game we never had seen before.. Again, people can choose to ignore things about gallanari, hold him to different standards, even to standards higher than greg oden, it just shows that they really can't be objective when it comes to talking about him vs other players.. Some of these guys will wet their pants over other players and will make every excuse for their flaws.. I see everyone backing off of guys like bayless, and batum... not that they are not good, but because their numbers are not, so they can 't sit here and throw out little barbs while posting pretty useless stats at this point....

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Pharzeone
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2/13/2009  1:29 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Yea hes only had a 2 1/2 month head start.

Two months head start. Wait I thought the argument was that we can't judge Randolph because like Gallinari he hasn't done anything while just sitting on the bench. You guys have to keep these arguments consistent now. Yeah, Randolph and Bayless couldn't get into games so that's why we couldn't jump to conclusions remember? Now all three guys are getting similar playing time and funny enough about the same time. If Gallinari was the BPA and played at a much higher level in the EL, why wouldn't he have the advantage over the likes of Randolph? They are both similar in age and Gallinari has 15 points on Randolph.

Gallinari was out with a back injury. Gallinari wasn't able to play or practice with the team. Gallinari was hardly able to work on his game while his back was acting up since the first game of summer league. Randolph on the other hand even if he wasn't getting big mins was still able to practice with the team. Randolph was still able to put in way more work then Gallinari could possibly put in because Gallinari had obvious limitations. So *when comparing him to Gallinari* he still had a 2 1/2 month head start.

Its funny to me how you feel that Randolph was worthy of the #6 pick, And how he is so much more talented then Gallinari. But yet you don't even hold Randolph to the standards that you hold Gallinari. You say things like Randolph is playing with ball hogs and his coach hates him. You act as if Gallinari is having everything served to him on a silver platter while Randolph is the one with the bad breaks conveniently forgetting that Gallinari missed 2 months with a back injury. You act as if Gallinari is being force fed the ball while Randolph is fighting for shots.

As Ive said before though its all about the work ethic and drive to be great. Thats the only thing that will seperate which players will be good and which one will be bust or average. All these other things about mins and 9pts in 14mins 10rebs in 16mins don't mean jack.

So what is his trade value?
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
newyorknewyork
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2/13/2009  1:39 PM
So what is his trade value?

What does it matter we aren't going to trade him, this season anyway?

I have no idea what his trade value is. I don't know what Gms think about him around the league. Unlike Randolph, Gallinari hasn't been shopped.

His back injury severely hurts his trade value. He is going to have to prove that his back injury is not a problem in order for a Gm to want to give up any value for him.

So to answer you question he really doesn't have any trade value right now, we aren't going to trade him and no team is going to give up anything of value for him.
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SlimPack
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2/13/2009  1:40 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:


So what is his trade value?

We could probably trade him to the Bulls for Demetris Nichols. I dunno, Maybe if Donnie really haggles he might be able to get them to throw in Michael Ruffin.
Paladin55
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2/13/2009  1:41 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Paladin55:

Randolph should have stayed in college another year or two and would have benefitted from being on a team with a more structured system.

I have not watched him on a continual basis, but has his game changed at all since he joined GS? He seems to be a perpetual freelancer to me.

I don't see him as another Garnett, The comparisons to T. Prince have always made more sense to me. I am not sure how his frame will handle the added weight and muscle, and I don't think he will ever be the 1/1 defender Garnett is, although his off the ball shot blocking ability is impressive. If he does gain significant weight and muscle, by the way, how will that affect his game, which is now built on speed and quickness? As things stand now, though, I don't see why his offensive game can't surpass that of Garnett.

Garnett, by the way, has emerged as a great player not only because of his basketball and athletic skills, but because of his toughness, heart, and leadership skills, things which have been question marks for Randolph. As far as I know, these are not things he has ever been know for at any level of play.


The grass always seems greener on the other side. I would be cautious about dealing Lee for Randolph. Lee is a proven commodity at this point, and his game seems to improve every year he plays. What has Randolph proven at this point? We don't even know if Randolph can play in any kind of structured offensive or defensive system. If I even thought of such a trade, GS would have to include their # 1 or some young promising player.

Wow you really talk up Gallinari and talk down Randolph. If we look at samples of both players who shouldve been picked 6th? Tayshaun Prince--do you even watch the guy play?

Gallinari has been a disappointment to me at this point- I have no trouble saying that. I did not talk him up here. I did not even mention him. He has about 2 yrs to develop for me to reach some kind of final conclusion on him as a player and #6 pick. He has not played the way I expected, but there have been major mitigating circumstances, so I can't really make a judgment on him at this time.

I questioned whether or not Randolph should have stayed in college a few more years and whether he can play within a team structure. He has amazing physical skills, but that is not all an athlete needs to be a winner.

I would not trade Lee for Gallinari if Gallinari was on another team, and I would not trade Lee for Randolph at this time.

I like T. Prince- my comparison of Randolph to him was not an insult- I was just looking at what I have seen so far.

I don't think Randolph can be another Garnett- my opinion.
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Pharzeone
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2/13/2009  1:43 PM
In my opinion, Gallinari is beginning to wear on his both his coach and teammates. I think his coach is trying a bit of everything and anything to get him going. IMO, Gallinari is being showcased right now, that's why I keep asking what is trade value.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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2/13/2009  1:46 PM
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by Pharzeone:


So what is his trade value?

We could probably trade him to the Bulls for Demetris Nichols. I dunno, Maybe if Donnie really haggles he might be able to get them to throw in Michael Ruffin.

I actually believe Walsh is interested in moving him for Randolph.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
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2/13/2009  1:46 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Yea hes only had a 2 1/2 month head start.

Two months head start. Wait I thought the argument was that we can't judge Randolph because like Gallinari he hasn't done anything while just sitting on the bench. You guys have to keep these arguments consistent now. Yeah, Randolph and Bayless couldn't get into games so that's why we couldn't jump to conclusions remember? Now all three guys are getting similar playing time and funny enough about the same time. If Gallinari was the BPA and played at a much higher level in the EL, why wouldn't he have the advantage over the likes of Randolph? They are both similar in age and Gallinari has 15 points on Randolph.

Gallinari was out with a back injury. Gallinari wasn't able to play or practice with the team. Gallinari was hardly able to work on his game while his back was acting up since the first game of summer league. Randolph on the other hand even if he wasn't getting big mins was still able to practice with the team. Randolph was still able to put in way more work then Gallinari could possibly put in because Gallinari had obvious limitations. So *when comparing him to Gallinari* he still had a 2 1/2 month head start.

Its funny to me how you feel that Randolph was worthy of the #6 pick, And how he is so much more talented then Gallinari. But yet you don't even hold Randolph to the standards that you hold Gallinari. You say things like Randolph is playing with ball hogs and his coach hates him. You act as if Gallinari is having everything served to him on a silver platter while Randolph is the one with the bad breaks conveniently forgetting that Gallinari missed 2 months with a back injury. You act as if Gallinari is being force fed the ball while Randolph is fighting for shots.

As Ive said before though its all about the work ethic and drive to be great. Thats the only thing that will seperate which players will be good and which one will be bust or average. All these other things about mins and 9pts in 14mins 10rebs in 16mins don't mean jack.

I know Gallinari can hit a three and make an occasional awkward looking shot. If he is standing in the right place he can get a rebound. Randolph on the other hand can do things like grab 10 rebounds in under 15 minutes[I think hes already done this twice] slam dunk over Yao Ming. Block shots play tough defense take the ball from coast to coast finish in transition. Gallinari is a superior outside shooter and thats it. Randolph is better at every other facet of the game--he is much more athletic younger with much less experience. You can argue to kingdom come--but as far as I have seen the superior talent is Randolph.
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newyorknewyork
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2/13/2009  1:52 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

In my opinion, Gallinari is beginning to wear on his both his coach and teammates. I think his coach is trying a bit of everything and anything to get him going. IMO, Gallinari is being showcased right now, that's why I keep asking what is trade value.

I don't think he is anything close to being showcased but I do agree that the vibe he had when he first started playing with the players is gone. His teammates seem to have lost some confidence in him that was shown when he first started playing.

I think Gallo will be alright though, I think that a lot of his limitations are because he needs to add more strength and bulk. He will never be the athlete that Randolph is. But I think he comes off as a savvy player. If he can keep working on that post up game vs smaller players as he adds bulk. Plus be able to absorb contact with aggressive defenders and still create separation which will help when he adds bulk. Pull oppnents big men out of the pain and drain 20fters. He has good length to grab rebounds and deflect passes. Though I don't think he will be a 10reb guy. I really believe he has good offensive ability. It might not be what you want but that's what I think he is.
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2/13/2009  2:07 PM
Nate & DEN's 2nd rounder for Randolph... i don't wanna give up Chandler or Lee for AR unless it was part of a larger deal w/someone like Biedrins.
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2/13/2009  2:19 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Pharzeone:

In my opinion, Gallinari is beginning to wear on his both his coach and teammates. I think his coach is trying a bit of everything and anything to get him going. IMO, Gallinari is being showcased right now, that's why I keep asking what is trade value.

I don't think he is anything close to being showcased but I do agree that the vibe he had when he first started playing with the players is gone. His teammates seem to have lost some confidence in him that was shown when he first started playing.

I think Gallo will be alright though, I think that a lot of his limitations are because he needs to add more strength and bulk. He will never be the athlete that Randolph is. But I think he comes off as a savvy player. If he can keep working on that post up game vs smaller players as he adds bulk. Plus be able to absorb contact with aggressive defenders and still create separation which will help when he adds bulk. Pull oppnents big men out of the pain and drain 20fters. He has good length to grab rebounds and deflect passes. Though I don't think he will be a 10reb guy. I really believe he has good offensive ability. It might not be what you want but that's what I think he is.

So what is his trade value right now? We are discussing everyone's potential trade value but for whatever reason we are avoiding this issue.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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2/13/2009  2:24 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Yea hes only had a 2 1/2 month head start.

Two months head start. Wait I thought the argument was that we can't judge Randolph because like Gallinari he hasn't done anything while just sitting on the bench. You guys have to keep these arguments consistent now. Yeah, Randolph and Bayless couldn't get into games so that's why we couldn't jump to conclusions remember? Now all three guys are getting similar playing time and funny enough about the same time. If Gallinari was the BPA and played at a much higher level in the EL, why wouldn't he have the advantage over the likes of Randolph? They are both similar in age and Gallinari has 15 points on Randolph.

Gallinari was out with a back injury. Gallinari wasn't able to play or practice with the team. Gallinari was hardly able to work on his game while his back was acting up since the first game of summer league. Randolph on the other hand even if he wasn't getting big mins was still able to practice with the team. Randolph was still able to put in way more work then Gallinari could possibly put in because Gallinari had obvious limitations. So *when comparing him to Gallinari* he still had a 2 1/2 month head start.

Its funny to me how you feel that Randolph was worthy of the #6 pick, And how he is so much more talented then Gallinari. But yet you don't even hold Randolph to the standards that you hold Gallinari. You say things like Randolph is playing with ball hogs and his coach hates him. You act as if Gallinari is having everything served to him on a silver platter while Randolph is the one with the bad breaks conveniently forgetting that Gallinari missed 2 months with a back injury. You act as if Gallinari is being force fed the ball while Randolph is fighting for shots.

As Ive said before though its all about the work ethic and drive to be great. Thats the only thing that will seperate which players will be good and which one will be bust or average. All these other things about mins and 9pts in 14mins 10rebs in 16mins don't mean jack.

I know Gallinari can hit a three and make an occasional awkward looking shot. If he is standing in the right place he can get a rebound. Randolph on the other hand can do things like grab 10 rebounds in under 15 minutes[I think hes already done this twice] slam dunk over Yao Ming. Block shots play tough defense take the ball from coast to coast finish in transition. Gallinari is a superior outside shooter and thats it. Randolph is better at every other facet of the game--he is much more athletic younger with much less experience. You can argue to kingdom come--but as far as I have seen the superior talent is Randolph.

I seen similar post in non-Knick forums, that is why I am curious to find out what do Knick fans really think. Forget the rah rah stuff. If you wanted to get a Bosh, Amare, Lebron, Carmelo or whatever, do you think that he could be used to spice up the deal. I seen in other forums that Chandler could be used as such, same for Randolph, so what about Gallinari's trade value?
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
newyorknewyork
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2/13/2009  3:10 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Pharzeone:

In my opinion, Gallinari is beginning to wear on his both his coach and teammates. I think his coach is trying a bit of everything and anything to get him going. IMO, Gallinari is being showcased right now, that's why I keep asking what is trade value.

I don't think he is anything close to being showcased but I do agree that the vibe he had when he first started playing with the players is gone. His teammates seem to have lost some confidence in him that was shown when he first started playing.

I think Gallo will be alright though, I think that a lot of his limitations are because he needs to add more strength and bulk. He will never be the athlete that Randolph is. But I think he comes off as a savvy player. If he can keep working on that post up game vs smaller players as he adds bulk. Plus be able to absorb contact with aggressive defenders and still create separation which will help when he adds bulk. Pull oppnents big men out of the pain and drain 20fters. He has good length to grab rebounds and deflect passes. Though I don't think he will be a 10reb guy. I really believe he has good offensive ability. It might not be what you want but that's what I think he is.

So what is his trade value right now? We are discussing everyone's potential trade value but for whatever reason we are avoiding this issue.

I replied to you about his trade value already about a post or 2 ago.
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