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i'm sorry, but d'antoni's offense is terrible
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Allanfan20
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1/12/2009  1:58 PM
Duhon is the 100% least of our problems. He's been our MVP and that's really not saying much. If it weren't for him though, we'd possibly be a 0-5 win team.

Just remember, it's also not choosing the better players. It's the right players, and Duhon is the right player. Unfortunately, nobody else on the team is right except MAYBE, and I really mean MAYBE, Lee and Chandler. They both have some proving to do.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
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McK1
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1/12/2009  2:07 PM
Is there really an MVP of a team that is 13-22?

But if there was such a thing, the guy averaging a double double on phenomenal percentages who finds a way to finish almost all Duhon's crappy dumpoff passes to him would be him.

As for MDA, I really don't believe he was hired at that price tag to come here and Larry Brown the team



[Edited by - McK1 on 12-01-2009 2:07 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
SupremeCommander
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1/12/2009  2:20 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by GKFv2:

So it's his offense and not the players, correct? Duhon is OK but not a starter. Marbury wouldn't have done any better. Nate? LOL @ him at PG. Then you have Crawford 2 at forward (Al Harrington) who I could care less about since he is gone in 2 years. Who else? Lee has an offensive game? what can Q do? Tim Thomas? Curry? What? Who's left? Malik and Roberson? The personnel sucks. I'm pretty sure it's not the offense. Besides Duhon and the recently acquired Harrington, the guys I mentioned are all former Isiah Thomas acquisitions - including Tim Thomas.

watching how this whole offense is predicated on the pg penetrating into the lane, marbury would trump duhon tenfold.

forget the players for a second. they don't run any plays. it's one on one. stop looking at it in such extreme terms. yes, they don't have the talent, but i don't think d'antoni is maximizing their potential.

I dissagree, it is predicated on ball movement, penetrating and then PASSING.. that is where marbury would fail... marbury, nate and all would make us worse than the GS warriors.... why is it so hard to see that marbury trumps no one, because he doesn't run any offense except his own?

it relies 100% on the pg. duhon isn't good enough so they have to move the ball around on the perimeter. the ball movement in pheonix started with nash getting into the paint. since duhon can't do it as well, it relies on the other guys making more decisions with the ball. that's why you see so many bad shots/chucks. if the team had better shooters, then it would mask it better, but they don't. that's why i think marbury would've done a better job than duhon.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 01-12-2009 11:20 AM]

duhon isn't good enough to, what? his offense is not all about the PG, duhon has gotten a lot of guys in great shooting situations. They just miss.. when Al and nate get the ball and won't pass it, what does that have to do with duhons ability.. the only thing marbury would have done would be to add to the selfish play we are seeing now, but instead he would hang his head, say he got his 20-8 and point the fingers at his teamates... is that what you want?

Duhon's not good enough to consistently win games by himself. It's a silly coaching decision and a silly management decision. I think that was dj's original point, that MDA hasn't put his players in a position to succeed. The Knicks can hit foul shots; make them get to the line.
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Allanfan20
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1/12/2009  2:24 PM
What does Larry Brown the team mean? I think Walsh was well aware that this would be a pretty bad team.

And maybe I was a little bit of a lover when I said MVP, but lets look at it this way. He's the only player on the team that knows how to play in a winning system, and he knows he's a role player and he plays his role very well. And he's still getting a high assists number, even though everyone else can't hit for sheeot.

And OK, Lee and Duhon are co best players. This wouldn't be the case on a good team though. They are both the types of guys that should be 4th and 5th best players.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bippity10
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1/12/2009  2:24 PM
Once again, we are losing because a coach just came here for the money. He's already quit and is mailing in the season.

anyone that thinks this is certifiably insane. How many years of watching the same types of players play the same way before we think that maybe it's not the coach?
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djsunyc
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1/12/2009  2:27 PM
this is not a sh t on d'antoni thread. this is a question as to why he hasn't done anything different thread. he is not coaching for his job. he knows what players he wants to keep. he knows these guys aren't that good at running his system. so why has he not altered his gameplan a bit to accomodate his roster? that's all i'm asking...
TMS
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1/12/2009  2:36 PM
how do u alter a gameplan centered around players w/loser mentalities that are for the most part disinterested in playing team oriented basketball? should he just tell these guys to go 1 on 1 every possession & "get theirs" like Isiah was doing over the past couple years? should he just encourage Nate & Al to keep playing their 1 on 1 style & completely taking the team out of the team ball they were playing earlier in the season?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
tkf
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1/12/2009  2:44 PM
Posted by SupremeCommander:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by GKFv2:

So it's his offense and not the players, correct? Duhon is OK but not a starter. Marbury wouldn't have done any better. Nate? LOL @ him at PG. Then you have Crawford 2 at forward (Al Harrington) who I could care less about since he is gone in 2 years. Who else? Lee has an offensive game? what can Q do? Tim Thomas? Curry? What? Who's left? Malik and Roberson? The personnel sucks. I'm pretty sure it's not the offense. Besides Duhon and the recently acquired Harrington, the guys I mentioned are all former Isiah Thomas acquisitions - including Tim Thomas.

watching how this whole offense is predicated on the pg penetrating into the lane, marbury would trump duhon tenfold.

forget the players for a second. they don't run any plays. it's one on one. stop looking at it in such extreme terms. yes, they don't have the talent, but i don't think d'antoni is maximizing their potential.

I dissagree, it is predicated on ball movement, penetrating and then PASSING.. that is where marbury would fail... marbury, nate and all would make us worse than the GS warriors.... why is it so hard to see that marbury trumps no one, because he doesn't run any offense except his own?

it relies 100% on the pg. duhon isn't good enough so they have to move the ball around on the perimeter. the ball movement in pheonix started with nash getting into the paint. since duhon can't do it as well, it relies on the other guys making more decisions with the ball. that's why you see so many bad shots/chucks. if the team had better shooters, then it would mask it better, but they don't. that's why i think marbury would've done a better job than duhon.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 01-12-2009 11:20 AM]

duhon isn't good enough to, what? his offense is not all about the PG, duhon has gotten a lot of guys in great shooting situations. They just miss.. when Al and nate get the ball and won't pass it, what does that have to do with duhons ability.. the only thing marbury would have done would be to add to the selfish play we are seeing now, but instead he would hang his head, say he got his 20-8 and point the fingers at his teamates... is that what you want?

Duhon's not good enough to consistently win games by himself. It's a silly coaching decision and a silly management decision. I think that was dj's original point, that MDA hasn't put his players in a position to succeed. The Knicks can hit foul shots; make them get to the line.

we have no one that can do that, and really is that what we are trying to do here, have a 1 man show? other than lebron, and kobe, there are not many of those guys around... the knick have been put in many situations to win.. D'antoni can't make the shots for them. simple and plain... And how can he make someone get to the line.Al harrington drove 4 times in a row to the basket and didn't get a call, is that Dantoni's fault?



[Edited by - tkf on 12-01-2009 2:45 PM]
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
McK1
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1/12/2009  2:46 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

What does Larry Brown the team mean? I think Walsh was well aware that this would be a pretty bad team.

And maybe I was a little bit of a lover when I said MVP, but lets look at it this way. He's the only player on the team that knows how to play in a winning system,

And he's still getting a high assists number, even though everyone else can't hit for sheeot.
the guys who played on Karl's, Carlisle's, and MDA's conference finals squads would beg to differ.

maybe they'd hit more shots if the guy calling the plays would design plays to get them shots in the 12-18ft range vs the 18-28 ft range.

and if it isn't his fault then perhaps the guy running the offense should run the Chandlers and Harringtons of the world off the 3 line and into the high post for better looks when they catch the ball. Duhon has no prob signaling Lee for a high screen and roll...no other big on the team practices setting screens? or does Duhon not trust any other big to keep his assist number padded?

PS

Larry Browning the team the team was a reference to the people apologizing for MDA's coaching performance thus far and had zero to do with the job Walsh has done.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
tkf
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1/12/2009  2:47 PM
I have never seen a fan base that will sit and say we have the worst players in the league, and then turn around and blame the coach and GM for not guiding these same guys to 50 wins... LOL... Brown, wilkens, isiah, all failed with these guys. yet somehow the players , in the end are let off the hook...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
GallOfFame
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1/12/2009  2:49 PM
Posted by King1:

It is so funny if these guys play well and play a good game MDA is a great coach. If they stink it is the players fault. After the Boston game MDA was a great coach

If the Apologists can make sense of this then maybe things will come full circle but I doubt they can.
GallOfFame
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1/12/2009  2:55 PM
Posted by tkf:

I have never seen a fan base that will sit and say we have the worst players in the league, and then turn around and blame the coach and GM for not guiding these same guys to 50 wins... LOL... Brown, wilkens, isiah, all failed with these guys. yet somehow the players , in the end are let off the hook...

I've never seen a fan base say the players suck and the coach can't work any miracles with the bunch but when it comes time to thinking about trading the players, these same fans want high first round draft picks, immediate cap space, young prospects with possible more upside, better players in return.

In the end everyone is absolved from finger pointing. Back to where we've been the past 7 yrs.

I want an era of accountability, no excuses, and results.
nixluva
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1/12/2009  2:56 PM
What is all this griping about the offense? To me it's clear that it's not MDA's system, but the roster that causes much of the problem. This team is much closer to being able to succeed in this style than it appears. You just plug in a stud and see how much of a difference that makes, even more so if you add TWO. In MOST games this team is right there, but without that star player to get you over the hump in crunch time it's really tough to pull out games.

It's more a talent thing than a coaching thing. We've got to allow time to rebuild this team. We've traded some dynamic players and now we really are left with a team of role players and developing prospects. I've read the little snide comments about me saying the team had more talent than it seemed under Isiah's coaching. I still believe that was true, but when you trade two top guys and your center isn't even playing for the 1st two months is it fair to bash someone for the team not winning games? I think that's not right.

The team has made some improvements in how they play and share the ball, but this is going to be an ongoing process and some guys won't make the cut. We all know that this team is gonna change. As horrible as some think MDA's offense is, this team would be a force if we actually had guys hitting shots and making the right cuts and passes. it's not MDA's fault when guys don't do what they should, when they should. He's clearly coaching them to do the right things, but eventually it's on the players.
TMS
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1/12/2009  2:57 PM
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by King1:

It is so funny if these guys play well and play a good game MDA is a great coach. If they stink it is the players fault. After the Boston game MDA was a great coach

If the Apologists can make sense of this then maybe things will come full circle but I doubt they can.

it's not a question of being an MDA apologist or not, it's merely common sense... when players execute a gameplan the way it's drawn up, then the coach does deserve praise for coming up w/that gameplan just like the players do for executing that plan... when players fail to execute a gameplan the way it's drawn up, then the fault falls on those players for the most part for not executing... sure u can deflect some blame on the coach for not instilling that game plan well enough but i mean how many times do u have to tell a guy to be in a certain place or play a certain way before u just assume he's going to know what he's supposed to be doing? don't u have to start looking at the player after a point & wondering why the hell he refuses to listen to what the coach wants him to do? do u really think MDA is drawing up plays for Nate & Al to go 1 on 1 on every other possession & take the team completely out of the flow of the offense he had them running earlier this season?
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Bippity10
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1/12/2009  2:59 PM
Posted by tkf:

I have never seen a fan base that will sit and say we have the worst players in the league, and then turn around and blame the coach and GM for not guiding these same guys to 50 wins... LOL... Brown, wilkens, isiah, all failed with these guys. yet somehow the players , in the end are let off the hook...

It's the most amazing thing I've ever seen. It's one thing to have a 23 win roster and then win 12 games. Our coach has a 23 win roster and is on pace to win 30. Not great, but amazing that getting what is expected is enough to have a portion of the fan base turn on him. Fans really have not grasped the fact that we were the laughingstock of the NBa the past two years. They continue to think that's gone now that we have a new coach. That somehow a new coach and GM and a few months changed all of this. We continue to think that beating Minnesota and the others should be easy. We continue to think we are in that tier of teams that shoudl make the playoffs. We are in denial.
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GallOfFame
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1/12/2009  3:06 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by King1:

It is so funny if these guys play well and play a good game MDA is a great coach. If they stink it is the players fault. After the Boston game MDA was a great coach

If the Apologists can make sense of this then maybe things will come full circle but I doubt they can.

it's not a question of being an MDA apologist or not, it's merely common sense... when players execute a gameplan the way it's drawn up, then the coach does deserve praise for coming up w/that gameplan just like the players do for executing that plan... when players fail to execute a gameplan the way it's drawn up, then the fault falls on those players for the most part for not executing... sure u can deflect some blame on the coach for not instilling that game plan well enough but i mean how many times do u have to tell a guy to be in a certain place or play a certain way before u just assume he's going to know what he's supposed to be doing? don't u have to start looking at the player after a point & wondering why the hell he refuses to listen to what the coach wants him to do? do u really think MDA is drawing up plays for Nate & Al to go 1 on 1 on every other possession & take the team completely out of the flow of the offense he had them running earlier this season?

This goes back to the same things being done over and over.

Why is Nate allowed to take 3pt shots on a fast break in a very close game....game after game? Why is it when the team mounts a rally they kill the rally with poor shot selection?

It's because this system is frantic and frenetic. When players are allowed to go Bananas for a full 48min it's bound to bite them in the butt eventually. The team lacks discipline first and foremost and that comes from coaching. It's like giving your kid or allowing them to eat a full pack of Bubble Gum and 24oz of Mountain Dew before they go to school each morning and then wonder why they've been in In School Suspension all day because they weren't able to control themselves. Look it's ok to want and give your kid energy so they can be alert and perform their responsibilities at school but give them the right kind of energy. What may work for some players isn't going to work for the next.
GallOfFame
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1/12/2009  3:09 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by tkf:

I have never seen a fan base that will sit and say we have the worst players in the league, and then turn around and blame the coach and GM for not guiding these same guys to 50 wins... LOL... Brown, wilkens, isiah, all failed with these guys. yet somehow the players , in the end are let off the hook...

It's one thing to have a 23 win roster and then win 12 games. Our coach has a 23 win roster and is on pace to win 30.

The yr before last yr with the same usual suspects they were on pace to win 38gms(pre injuries some fans think possible more) with an Inept coach. So 2 yrs removed from talent being that it's a wash between the progression of the younger players vs players traded for you'd think the Elite coach would be on a better pace than 30.
TMS
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1/12/2009  3:11 PM
see i don't believe it's the coaching because earlier this season the team was playing good fundamental basketball & the offense was flowing quite nicely IMHO... i actually started to have some real optimism in the effort i was seeing out there... maybe u feel different.

lately i'm seeing these guys fall back into their old bad habits, & that is alarming i agree w/u 100%, but i can't put the majority of that blame on the coaching... i hold the players accountable... i don't think MDA is coaching these guys to get them to play that way... i see him practically screaming in their ears every game whenever these guys make boneheaded plays on the court & fail to cover their man on D... this is not how a coach who's become complacent w/these guys not executing his plays & system will behave.
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nyk4ever
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1/12/2009  3:12 PM
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by tkf:

I have never seen a fan base that will sit and say we have the worst players in the league, and then turn around and blame the coach and GM for not guiding these same guys to 50 wins... LOL... Brown, wilkens, isiah, all failed with these guys. yet somehow the players , in the end are let off the hook...

It's one thing to have a 23 win roster and then win 12 games. Our coach has a 23 win roster and is on pace to win 30.

The yr before last yr with the same usual suspects they were on pace to win 38gms(pre injuries some fans think possible more) with an Inept coach. So 2 yrs removed from talent being that it's a wash between the progression of the younger players vs players traded for you'd think the Elite coach would be on a better pace than 30.

TrueBlue, this roster sucks. If you think for one second that this roster should win more than 30 you are nuts.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bippity10
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1/12/2009  3:18 PM
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by tkf:

I have never seen a fan base that will sit and say we have the worst players in the league, and then turn around and blame the coach and GM for not guiding these same guys to 50 wins... LOL... Brown, wilkens, isiah, all failed with these guys. yet somehow the players , in the end are let off the hook...

It's one thing to have a 23 win roster and then win 12 games. Our coach has a 23 win roster and is on pace to win 30.

The yr before last yr with the same usual suspects they were on pace to win 38gms(pre injuries some fans think possible more) with an Inept coach. So 2 yrs removed from talent being that it's a wash between the progression of the younger players vs players traded for you'd think the Elite coach would be on a better pace than 30.

Who is coming in here and winning 35-40 games? Name them. When you are done naming them ask yourself if you thought that before last year Doc Rivers could come in here and win 35-40 games with this roster. And when you are done answering that question ask yourself is it the coach or is it the players?

Do some of you guys think that D'Antoni just got lucky Phoenix? Is he really a bad coach that got lucky with a good roster. I remember LB being disredited in much the same way when he was here.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 12-01-2009 3:20 PM]
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i'm sorry, but d'antoni's offense is terrible
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