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Allanfan20
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12/11/2008  1:55 PM
Posted by Elite:

you cant expect everyone to have the Kevin Garnett type hunger and passion for basketball, its just not the way real life is. Some players dont have that inner motivation and you have to help bring it out of them. Who knows maybe Curry is the type of guy where if disciplin is givin from the team via a trainer/diet/chef he will buy into it but on his own he'll just never do it. That is very possible

Elite. This is the point. Eddie Curry shouldn't have to have the team ragging on him. He should automatically be doing this on his own. However, he seems to really believe HE IS in shape, so maybe the team does need to dumb the Knicks down and get on his ars. That to me, however, is unacceptable. Again, like I said, my standards are high.

Elite, Kevin Garnett is the most intense player in the NBA. I don't expect people to match that. I DO expect players to hustle though. I do expect them to run their hardest down the floor. I do expect them to put a hand up when a shot goes up and I do expect them to keep their focus. That's not asking them to be Kevin Garnett. That's asking them to play basketball. It's seriously not asking for a lot.

Elite, let me ask you this question. If Tim Thomas had this same contract, except during different time periods, how much playing time do you think he'd get under Red Holzman, Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy and Hubbie Brown. Heck, if we had a full roster RIGHT NOW, do you think he'd be getting minutes?

My guess is most likely NO.
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misterearl
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12/11/2008  2:00 PM
I miss Cuttino, but I understand

Elite - as we digress to think of Eddy Curry

A bootleg question... (jptez) "So should the Knicks now order a similar battery of (heart) tests for Curry - because that may be in Curry's best interests also?"
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Marv
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12/11/2008  2:00 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Allanfan - you brought up the money dude.

I expect Tim Thomas to be a team player. So far, since returning, he is doing just that. He has been making valuable contributions on a solid six/seven-man rotation that plays hard. Otherwise, D'Antoni would have him seated next to Jerome James.

Bitching and moaning about his flaws are a waste of time.

no one does jerome james' job like jerome james does. instead of putting a towel over his head or scowling he is up on every play, with a hug cheer, smile and hug for his teammates. that man takes pride in the role assigned to him on this team and excels at it.
Elite
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12/11/2008  2:04 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by Elite:

you cant expect everyone to have the Kevin Garnett type hunger and passion for basketball, its just not the way real life is. Some players dont have that inner motivation and you have to help bring it out of them. Who knows maybe Curry is the type of guy where if disciplin is givin from the team via a trainer/diet/chef he will buy into it but on his own he'll just never do it. That is very possible

Elite. This is the point. Eddie Curry shouldn't have to have the team ragging on him. He should automatically be doing this on his own. However, he seems to really believe HE IS in shape, so maybe the team does need to dumb the Knicks down and get on his ars. That to me, however, is unacceptable. Again, like I said, my standards are high.

Elite, Kevin Garnett is the most intense player in the NBA. I don't expect people to match that. I DO expect players to hustle though. I do expect them to run their hardest down the floor. I do expect them to put a hand up when a shot goes up and I do expect them to keep their focus. That's not asking them to be Kevin Garnett. That's asking them to play basketball. It's seriously not asking for a lot.

Elite, let me ask you this question. If Tim Thomas had this same contract, except during different time periods, how much playing time do you think he'd get under Red Holzman, Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy and Hubbie Brown. Heck, if we had a full roster RIGHT NOW, do you think he'd be getting minutes?

My guess is most likely NO.

I just dont think its as easy as saying "Hey we gave you a lot of money now you should do xyz" some people have psychological issues, depression, food addictions etc. You never know what hes got going on, he may need intervention because honestly there is no way a man should be in the kind of shape hes in year after year doing the amount of exercise he does unless he is eating an IMMENSE amount of food. So who knows maybe he has a problem and the Knicks need to step in and help
ramtour420
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12/11/2008  2:09 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

You didn't offend me. Maybe I went a little deep, b/c I thought Misterearl's post was pretty nuts.

However, I will say that it's silly to say that it sounds like 15 year old thinking when I say that TT doesn't deserve the praise he gets. I have EVERY RIGHT to demand that he bust his ars when he's on the court to at least earn that money, contrary to what you believe. And NO, I'm not the one to judge a player by the money he makes. I rarely do that as a matter of fact.

However, Curry, TT and Marbs are MAJOR exceptions. They either don't play hard, don't get themselves in shape or they refuse to be team players. I have every right to demand that, and if you as a fan don't demand that, then you're setting your expectations very low and you also don't know what's best for the Knicks.

I guess since I'm acting like a 15 year old though, only I should have high expectations for these guys.

Well you are right,I think you speak for all of us fans that we all want the best for our team, and we all want our players to bring it. Maybe i misunderstood you in that sense , it just seemed like you were a bit unrealistic in that you seemed to apply the same concept to every1. And in the perfect world, on a perfect team, anything less would be not acceptible. However , our team is far from perfect, the players and TT in particular are not perfect either. You know, when Marbs comes to camp in shape and doesn't publicly put himself above the team and above everything else(right away) many fans are ready to hand him the keys from the city when in reality that should be a given and nothing to throw a parade about. Marbs is not a good example, and neither is Curry cause these guys seem to put certain things above the rest( ego for Marbs and Big Macs for Curry)

Now is it right to tell them that thats not how they should be? I don't think so. We all have things in our lives that we need to work on. Noone is perfect. Just because they are on our team does not give us the right to tell them how to live their lives imho. Yes they hurt the team, yes we'd be better off without them and hell yes i want them out. They've had chances to change to evolve as people and as players. They've failed. So good luck to them somewhere else. I am just saying that high expectations are not realistic for some people.
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misterearl
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12/11/2008  2:12 PM
The Answer Man Always Gets Playing Time, Because He Gives Maximum Effort

Q. Allanfan - If Tim Thomas had this same contract, except during different time periods, how much playing time do you think he'd get under Red Holzman, Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy and Hubbie Brown?

A. If Tim Thomas had this contract in Red Holzman's era he would have only raised the paycheck bar for the grossly underpaid Frazier, Reed, DeBusschere, Bradley, Monroe, Barnett and Jerry Lucas. They would all STILL be rolling in Gulf+Western chedda. Tim Thomas would be seated right next to Harthorne Wingo as a beloved tenth man.

Q. Allanfan - if we had a full roster RIGHT NOW, do you think he'd be getting minutes?

A. If he plays for D'Antoni like he played for him in Phoenix - no question. "Hey Mike, what's up with you saying you're going to run more plays for Tim Thomas?"

Sounds like your beef is with Mike D'Antoni giving Tim Thomas too many minutes
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misterearl
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12/11/2008  2:20 PM
"I am just saying that high expectations are not realistic for some people."

ramtour - extremely well said. Thank You.

The press, which bestows expectations like it is handing out government cheese, manufactures heroes before they even play a game.

Note Berman's inappropriate and premature hook of The Italian Stallion for Gallinari.

Do we want the best effort and production from Gallinari? Of course we do. What are the chances The (cough) Italian Stallion becomes an all star? No one knows. If he is as much a bust as the beloved (and heralded) Maciej Lampe, who is to blame for the arbitrary expectations?

Then again, Lampe wasn't "American" to start with.

once a knick always a knick
Hank
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12/11/2008  3:21 PM
Some of these players are just kids when entering the NBA. They are thrown too early in the real world with not much mental, as well as physical preparation, for the NBA. They never truly learn how to be responsible for their lives, let alone the success of their team. Some of these guys need to go college to mature (or some other institution), and learn how to take care of themselves, and go through their normal development curve. Expecting an 18 year old to be a franchise player (or even to contribute immediately) is unrealistic, and will crush with them with overwhelming burden that they might never recover. It takes time to develop mentally, as well as physically, and get use to the grind of the NBA.

I am looking at the list of draft picks in the last few years, and a lot of them should have went to college and/or stayed longer. The list includes Eddy Curry, Kwame Brown, Darius Miles, Chris Taft, JR Smith, Randolph Morris, Dorrel Wright, Martell Webster, and Gerald Green. I almost forgot about Eddie Griffin, the guy who got ran over by a train. Some people just take longer to mature than others.

I think Tim Thomas has found his niche, and what makes him happy. Not much fans can do about that, but accept him as a good role player off the bench. However, the NBA is getting more competitive, and there will be less players like Eddy Curry and Tim Thomas in the future, or at least their contracts will be a lot smaller.

[Edited by - hank on 12-11-2008 3:28 PM]
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ramtour420
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12/11/2008  3:51 PM
Posted by Hank:

Some of these players are just kids when entering the NBA. They are thrown too early in the real world with not much mental, as well as physical preparation, for the NBA. They never truly learn how to be responsible for their lives, let alone the success of their team. Some of these guys need to go college to mature (or some other institution), and learn how to take care of themselves, and go through their normal development curve. Expecting an 18 year old to be a franchise player (or even to contribute immediately) is unrealistic, and will crush with them with overwhelming burden that they might never recover. It takes time to develop mentally, as well as physically, and get use to the grind of the NBA.

I am looking at the list of draft picks in the last few years, and a lot of them should have went to college and/or stayed longer. The list includes Eddy Curry, Kwame Brown, Darius Miles, Chris Taft, JR Smith, Randolph Morris, Dorrel Wright, Martell Webster, and Gerald Green. I almost forgot about Eddie Griffin, the guy who got ran over by a train. Some people just take longer to mature than others.

I think Tim Thomas has found his niche, and what makes him happy. Not much fans can do about that, but accept him as a good role player off the bench. However, the NBA is getting more competitive, and there will be less players like Eddy Curry and Tim Thomas in the future, or at least their contracts will be a lot smaller.

[Edited by - hank on 12-11-2008 3:28 PM]

You totally nailed it there man. Thats actually exactly what i've been trying to say. Thing is tho, this touches a topic that i feel very strongly about. On a spiritual level this is very important to me.

I believe that a person should not set expectations, ever. Let me explain, as this applies to every aspect of our lives. Lets say you are getting married, you expect certain things from your wife/husband. Lets say you are starting a new job- you expect whatever it is you thought you signed up for. . . this goes on and on and on. My point is that expectations bring with them an almost certain chance of failure. And when you have definite expectations you define whats considered failure as well. You also limit your way of judging a situation to your expectations. And when those expectations are just above the realistic levels it sets you up for a disappointment. And its really hard to determine those"realistic" levels because that requires expectations in the first place.

So instead of judging things and ppl for what they are, you end up trying to judge them according to your standards and then end up disappointed when those standards are not met. To me thats just a very rigid and ineffective way of operation. Instead of looking at how things are, ppl look at how things should be, effectively setting themselves on a mission to fail. Sry to go on a rant here but i really feel strongly about this and i believe that this concept would make our lives a lot easier if more people followed it.

Of course there are certain criteria that needs to be met for some situations. Such as you can't have a sex offender counseling ppl who were sexually abused , or a multitude of other examples where restrictions must be set. I am just talking here about our individual attitudes about people or events that take place in our lives, not a way to run our society in general since rules and regulations are necessary still, since there are many more problems in the society that need to be addressed.

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
TMS
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12/11/2008  5:27 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

The one guy who has some sanity here is TMS. The guy does NOT play with heart. He coasts A LOT, and I mean most of the time. And I've seen him run hard. He's a very fast runner, but he's usually jogging and he usually expects his teammates to pick up the slack for when he's coasting. He loses focus a lot too. He just doesn't have the mentality.

Now, I can understand if he was just soft and had Keith Van Horn like symptoms yet he busted his but all the time. Meaning, he tried hard on the D' but just happened to get beat and he wasn't good at taking clutch shots. That I can understand.

I can understand if he's even a bit of an underachiever and couldn't live up to the high expectations, but still busted his but all the time. Kind of like a Joe Smith type of guy. That I can understand too.

However, this guy has all the tools in the world, and while maybe he loves the Knicks, he sure doesn't seem to love the game of basketball.

But at least he keeps himself in shape and can shoot the rock, so like what others said: He has some uses. It should have never come to this point though.

thank you! i mean u look at guys like Channing Frye, who was as soft as they come but at least the guy was trying out there, u could see it... KVH the same thing... he was a horrible defender but not out of lack of effort... he actually tried to get in front of guys who were penetrating into the lane & drew a charge every now & again... Jared Fishlips who i bust on every chance i get at the very least shows effort, even tho he sucks... i can accept these things a lot easier than watching a player w/Tim Thomas' skills & ability just stand there w/his feet planted on defense just waiving his hands at guys flying by him into the lane for an easy bucket... this is the same reason people get pissed off at Eddie Curry around here... these guys just don't care enough to give that effort on a nightly basis when we all have seen how well they can play when they decide they want to bring it that night... excuse me if i can't help but get frustrated over watching a player like that... & again, i'm not expecting superstar numbers outta Tiny Tim... just give me an honest effort whenever ur on the floor & stop coasting through the games like u've coasted through your entire career.
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TMS
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12/11/2008  5:31 PM
Posted by martin:

At $6M per, TT is a fine, fine player; at >$10M he sucks.

$6 mil for a 6'10" bigman putting up 9 & 4 while shooting 38% from the field is not all that great if u ask me... Duhon makes less than that & he plays his heart out for 48 minutes every night... what's Tim's excuse? cuz he's just too good to give a rat's arse half the time we're supposed to be happy about it? speaking for myself he disgusts me when i see him coasting, i don't care how great of a smile he's got or how friendly he comes off as.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
martin
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12/11/2008  5:39 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by martin:

At $6M per, TT is a fine, fine player; at >$10M he sucks.

$6 mil for a 6'10" bigman putting up 9 & 4 while shooting 38% from the field is not all that great if u ask me... Duhon makes less than that & he plays his heart out for 48 minutes every night... what's Tim's excuse? cuz he's just too good to give a rat's arse half the time we're supposed to be happy about it? speaking for myself he disgusts me when i see him coasting, i don't care how great of a smile he's got or how friendly he comes off as.

at $6M per as a 6'10" roll player off the bench who is putting up 11 and 4 and shooting 43% and 40% from 3 point land for the Knicks at 24 minutes per game, that's not too bad. I don't mind that from a bench player.
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misterearl
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12/11/2008  5:42 PM
Hank - outstanding.

Some issues are larger than just basketball or whether this guy or that guy is living up to some "standard" of stats. The job of the coach is to manage people. So far, I would submit that Mike D'Antoni, by being positive and supportive, has created an excellent environment for his band of brothers to be productive - and entertaining.

what more can any Knicks fan ask?
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TMS
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12/11/2008  5:47 PM
what more can any Knicks fan ask?

effort... it's not that complicated.
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GodSaveTheKnicks
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12/11/2008  5:54 PM
Back to the original question

Tim Thomas is....

Gone by 2010. That's his best feature.

Anything we get out of him till then is just icing on the 2010 cake.

I was going to be cynical and say we should just hypnotize him before every game into thinking he's playing in NJ in front of his peoples so we get what we got last night BUT

He was quite the beast in Phoenix under Mike D'Antoni so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
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misterearl
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12/11/2008  5:55 PM
TMS - how much more "effort" do you want from a six man rotation?

enough with the cliches
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TMS
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12/11/2008  6:08 PM
Posted by misterearl:

TMS - how much more "effort" do you want from a six man rotation?

enough with the cliches

alot more effort than he's shown me... what's so complicated?

enough with your attempts at wit.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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12/11/2008  6:33 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by martin:

At $6M per, TT is a fine, fine player; at >$10M he sucks.

$6 mil for a 6'10" bigman putting up 9 & 4 while shooting 38% from the field is not all that great if u ask me... Duhon makes less than that & he plays his heart out for 48 minutes every night... what's Tim's excuse? cuz he's just too good to give a rat's arse half the time we're supposed to be happy about it? speaking for myself he disgusts me when i see him coasting, i don't care how great of a smile he's got or how friendly he comes off as.

at $6M per as a 6'10" roll player off the bench who is putting up 11 and 4 and shooting 43% and 40% from 3 point land for the Knicks at 24 minutes per game, that's not too bad. I don't mind that from a bench player.

it's not the numbers i mind, it's the way he approaches the game & the way he plays it that i mind... whatever, we're getting nowhere w/this.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
knicks1248
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12/11/2008  11:27 PM
This guy is a pro at making people piss off, he's not going to get me any more. He is what he is and will always be, A player that could never for fill his potential. And the most inconsistant player i have ever seen. There is no in between, he's good or bad on any given night. The true saying/meaning of " CAN THE REAL TT STAND UP"
ES
misterearl
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12/12/2008  10:25 AM
"it's not the numbers i mind, it's the way he approaches the game & the way he plays it that i mind."

"just give me an honest effort whenever ur on the floor & stop coasting through the games like u've coasted through your entire career"

TMS - I have a ton more respect for Tim Thomas than that worthless, lazy, sack of ish, first round draft pick (6'10) Maciej Lampe. The approach that Lampe brought to the table was a total waste of a first round pick and no one could manage to reach into his thick skull and pull one ounce of dedication to his chosen profession.

He had all the potential in the world and could not even make an NBA roster after three years.

Funny, I've never heard a sinlge disparaging word about Lampe's "potential" and subsequent total failure.

once a knick always a knick
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