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4949
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11/21/2008  11:23 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by subzero0:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by subzero0:
Posted by GKFv2:

Anything less than LeBron is failure? Really? Wade, Bosh, Joe Johnson, whoever wouldn't be better than you boys Randolph and Crawford? Get back to reality. You don;t build a team around those losers. I don't care if we sign nobody from now till 2050. A deal like this gives the team more room to operate with and once you're under the cap anything can happen. LeBron James is not the only prize of 2010. If you care so much about Randolph and Crawford, go follow their teams on the West Coast because them and their history of losing with the Knicks will not be missed.

Who said anything about building around Zach and Crawford? Actually read my post and then comment, that is how this whole forum thing works.

subzero, u said if we don't get Lebron any alternative would not be acceptable... is that right or am i misquoting u here?
So let me put this in big black and white, we are not going to get LeBron. Do you hear that MS, we are not going to be able to get Lebron (I know your reading this.) and anyone less is a failure.

i couldn't disagree w/u more... whether we get Lebron or not, this was the correct move to make... we now have so many options available to us that we didn't have before... Zach & Jamal weren't gonna lead this team anywhere... we needed to make a trade like this to open up other options in the coming years... now all that's left to do is dump Curry & to make sure we make good use of the draft pick this year.

If we dont get Lebron, how many of those options are going to enable us to win a championship? Our goal isnt to make the playoffs year after year only to be smacked down by better teams (ask D'Antoni and Walsh about this, they know it well). Our goal is to win a championship.

ur telling me that if we get Bosh & D Wade to come here & sign up a guy like Nash to the MLE (by then he might be open to a contract of that level to come play for a championship & for his former favorite head coach), & combine those guys w/a lottery talent in this year's draft like a Blake Griffin, Hasheem Thabeet, Demar Derozan, BJ Mullens, Brandon Jennings, etc., along w/the guys we already have on the roster like Chandler, Nate, Lee & Gallo, that we won't have a team that could seriously contend for an NBA title?

u just said it urself, our goal is to win a championship... why is getting rid of Zach & Jamal a bad thing when that's our supposed goal? those guys werent' gonna lead us to any titles, i think that much has been abundantly clear since they got here.

[Edited by - TMS on 11-21-2008 7:22 PM]

I gotta tell you guys, TMS makes the best case in what is to come. The key is 'our options are wide open'. If we get Lebron and another star and have something built around them, then we have a legit shot. And if we don't get Lebron, we most certainly can get about ten quality players, including two star like Bosh, Wade. And why should building a championship team stop there. There is another year after all this takes place to find even more talent.

You have to sign fair talent to minimum contracts, so they run out in time to get them. That is the way you protect the money. So far, in five signings, we can definately see that this is what Walsh is doing. Roberson, Duhon, Mobley, Harrington and Thomas all run out on time to the sweepstakes.

Some of us keep on explaining this over and over again and a again it just doesn't seem to get through some of these thick skulls.
I'll never trust this' team again.
AUTOADVERT
4949
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11/21/2008  11:29 PM
Posted by subzero0:
Posted by sebstar:

There were no "ifs" when it came to Crawford and Randolph. They werent winning jack shyt. Guaranteed.

Agreed. But these were the wrong moves to make. Read my above "if" post in its entirety.

Dude, we did the thing that was most necessary. We got rid of a large amount of cap hell. We have options now. Who cares about the moves. We have two years to fix what we need fixed. That's the beauty of this whole move.

Donnie could have pulled a Layden or Isiah. He could have signed Duhon to a five year, $60 million dollar contract and called it the best deal he's ever made. He could have signed Roberson to a four year contract, at $40 million dollars and called it a genius move. He could have renegotiated Mobley, Harrington and Thomas's contracts, giving them 5 years each at about 45 million.

That is what Layden or Isiah would have done, to put us in ever lasting hell and nothing to look forward to. But instead, all five of their contracts end in two years. That's a lot of cap space dude. We have options. We can do many different things now. The players we have now, they aren't the finished product. The championship team is on it's way.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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11/21/2008  11:33 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by subzero0:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by subzero0:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by subzero0:
Posted by GKFv2:

Anything less than LeBron is failure? Really? Wade, Bosh, Joe Johnson, whoever wouldn't be better than you boys Randolph and Crawford? Get back to reality. You don;t build a team around those losers. I don't care if we sign nobody from now till 2050. A deal like this gives the team more room to operate with and once you're under the cap anything can happen. LeBron James is not the only prize of 2010. If you care so much about Randolph and Crawford, go follow their teams on the West Coast because them and their history of losing with the Knicks will not be missed.

Who said anything about building around Zach and Crawford? Actually read my post and then comment, that is how this whole forum thing works.

subzero, u said if we don't get Lebron any alternative would not be acceptable... is that right or am i misquoting u here?
So let me put this in big black and white, we are not going to get LeBron. Do you hear that MS, we are not going to be able to get Lebron (I know your reading this.) and anyone less is a failure.

i couldn't disagree w/u more... whether we get Lebron or not, this was the correct move to make... we now have so many options available to us that we didn't have before... Zach & Jamal weren't gonna lead this team anywhere... we needed to make a trade like this to open up other options in the coming years... now all that's left to do is dump Curry & to make sure we make good use of the draft pick this year.

If we dont get Lebron, how many of those options are going to enable us to win a championship? Our goal isnt to make the playoffs year after year only to be smacked down by better teams (ask D'Antoni and Walsh about this, they know it well). Our goal is to win a championship.

ur telling me that if we get Bosh & D Wade to come here & sign up a guy like Nash to the MLE (by then he might be open to a contract of that level to come play for a championship & for his former favorite head coach), & combine those guys w/a lottery talent in this year's draft like a Blake Griffin, Hasheem Thabeet, Demar Derozan, BJ Mullens, Brandon Jennings, etc., along w/the guys we already have on the roster like Chandler, Nate, Lee & Gallo, that we won't have a team that could seriously contend for an NBA title?

[Edited by - TMS on 11-21-2008 7:21 PM]

You see the problem here TMS is that these are a lot of if's. Lets go through them shall we.


if we get Bosh
if we get D Wade
if we get Nash if he wants to sign for the MLE
if we get an attractive player in this years draft
if we were able to resign Nate
if we were able to resign Lee
if Gallo ever becomes a player

Lets watch D Wade and Marion play this year. Lets watch Nash, Amare and Shaq play this year. Lets watch Bosh and Jermaine O'Neal play this year. Do you truly believe that they will win a championship? No? Why not, they are playing with star players right? Whats that, oh, they are not playing with a championship level player, thats why.

You see friends the only way to build a team properly to win a championship is with a good foundation. Architects dont build from the top down, they build from the bottom up. We need LeBron, but anyone who looks at this situation can see that we will not get him. So, what's plan B? Gather assets and trade them for higher value talent, build up. That is what today's moves failed to address. The draft really is our only escape, too bad we didnt get any picks.

We have actually made getting a championship harder to attain. I know today it is hard to see, but soon it will become aparent. Fools gold. Bookmark it.

i don't see how u can reason that we just made it harder on ourselves to acquire a franchise championship calibre player in the draft by making these trades... if anything it helps our chances of landing 1 w/the pick we already own for this year's draft... we didn't give up any picks in this trade & all the players we got back are pure stopgaps, not guys that are gonna improve us over the next year or 2... this is all about cap room & flexibility, it has no negative effect at all on our draft positioning this year, if anything it will improve it.

Ahhh, let's just thank God that a lot of these posters aren't our GM's. Isiah and Layden clones. They don't recognize options and possibilities. Donnie hands the future to them on a silver platter and they don't get it. Good God!
I'll never trust this' team again.
tkf
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11/21/2008  11:37 PM
Posted by MS:

Some fans never cease to amaze. It's no wonder arguments break out on these threads all the time. We were a 35 win team at best and guys are bitching about giving up a max deal and a 40% shooter who might I add was the biggest career loser in the entire league.

What is the objective here, winning. How the **** can you do that if you have pieces that prevent you from signing free agent talent. Last time I check we still have Lee, Nate, Harrington and Chandler. A better backup guard, PF, SF then Lebron has right now in Cleveland. Duhon has the best assist to TO ration in the entire nba and all I hear is negatives. Frankly if you are excited about betting the heat, thunder, bobcats, and wizards you are a ****ing idiot. We are trying to build for the future.

You got a 22 year old kid that maybe one of the 5 best players from last years draft that might I add is exactly on the same path that granger was on. Nate is a dynamic offensive player and has improved each year he has been in the league and is better than Gibson/West/Pavolivic. Lee will be sacrificed with Eddy Curry that is almost a certainty but if that happens that is another 10 million off the cap in addition what it would cost to resign him. So your team is the following.

Duhon/Nate

Chandler
Gallo/Draft pick
Jefferies/Draft Pick

You have room for two Amare/Bosh/Lebron/Wade/Dirk whomever. You think in this market with Mike as the coach and a couple of decent pieces lined up a mid level you can't convince two guys to come here, I think you're wrong. Amare has what with the suns in two years, nothing why is he going to say, Dirk has josh howard and eric dampier, bosh has calderon and the italian, wade has reason to stick around but there are other low level all stars out there?

Last time I checked when the knicks had money to spend they added Larry Johnson, Allan Houston, and chris childs and could have had Reggie Miller if they didn't give money to childs, so be patient and shut up. The team isn't really that much worse with three players that fit in the system.



good post. and BTW, chandler is just 21, and we still don't know what we have in gallo. If he turns out to be a good player, we are off to a great start.... Now we can actually say, we want lebron and not get laughed at... we actually will be in position. Anyone who doesn't like these moves are nuts..

And for the record, don't be suprised if we are a better team with mobley, TT and Harrington aboard....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
NineMike2Whiskey
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11/22/2008  12:12 AM
The only thing this trades hurts for me is that the Knicks may not be too competitive this year and probably not worth watching. The prospect of higher draft picks and escape from salary cap hell however is just too good to pass up.
Knicksfan
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11/22/2008  12:19 AM
Hey subzero, you mention the "ifs" as a terrible thing. Well, actually, thats the best thing about this day, that we have many options.

What have we had this past seasons? There has been no "If Crawford plays defense consistently we can win a championship." Nor there has been a "If Curry gets his act together we can win it all." The point? We knew, guaranteed, that they would suck so the best we could've hoped for was "If we trade this guy..."

That has actually happened and now we have more control of our operations and can hopefully add great pieces to the team. And since its still 2008, I think its too early to say we will have no players to attract free agents. Yesterday we had no way to create cap space for them and look now.
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4949
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11/22/2008  12:22 AM
Posted by Knicksfan:

Hey subzero, you mention the "ifs" as a terrible thing. Well, actually, thats the best thing about this day, that we have many options.

What have we had this past seasons? There has been no "If Crawford plays defense consistently we can win a championship." Nor there has been a "If Curry gets his act together we can win it all." The point? We knew, guaranteed, that they would suck so the best we could've hoped for was "If we trade this guy..."

That has actually happened and now we have more control of our operations and can hopefully add great pieces to the team. And since its still 2008, I think its too early to say we will have no players to attract free agents. Yesterday we had no way to create cap space for them and look now.

There's an old song that sings 'WHAT A DIFFERENCE A DAY MAKES'.............
I'll never trust this' team again.
oohah
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11/22/2008  1:03 AM
Subzero makes some interesting points. Don't be so ecstatic that you can't hear what he is saying. Just being a kabillion dollars under the cap during a big free agency year is not much of a goal in and of itself. History shows and smart money bets that a superstar signs with his existing team.

Look at the history of the NBA, and big superstars that you can build championships on are either drafted, or they are acquired in a trade like Shaq was to L.A. and then Miami.

I think Walsh's goal should be to A) Draft star talent and B) amass enough good/star talent that he can make a deal to acquire a LeBron, Bosh, etc. in a trade, because those players can get a higher salary from their own team than any other team.

Go ahead and just look at the history of the NBA: Franchise talent is drafted or traded for 9 out of 10 times. Rarely is that kind of talent signed outright.

oohah





[Edited by - oohah on 22-11-2008 01:04 AM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
4949
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11/22/2008  1:34 AM
Posted by oohah:

Subzero makes some interesting points. Don't be so ecstatic that you can't hear what he is saying. Just being a kabillion dollars under the cap during a big free agency year is not much of a goal in and of itself. History shows and smart money bets that a superstar signs with his existing team.

Look at the history of the NBA, and big superstars that you can build championships on are either drafted, or they are acquired in a trade like Shaq was to L.A. and then Miami.

I think Walsh's goal should be to A) Draft star talent and B) amass enough good/star talent that he can make a deal to acquire a LeBron, Bosh, etc. in a trade, because those players can get a higher salary from their own team than any other team.

Go ahead and just look at the history of the NBA: Franchise talent is drafted or traded for 9 out of 10 times. Rarely is that kind of talent signed outright.

oohah





[Edited by - oohah on 22-11-2008 01:04 AM]

Yeah, you brought this up before. Look at the history you said. Well, we have a shot and that's all I want.
I'll never trust this' team again.
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11/22/2008  2:19 AM
iyamwutiam, the moron who used to post on this forum had this to say on the hoopsHype forum:
Obviously you are seriously out of touch with reality. 'Mecca' of BBall my ***. The Knicks haven't won squat since the 70s!!

Anyway - I am done with the Knicks. Instead of building around the core that IT had brought - they are basically bent on being the worst team in basketball for a decade -despite being one of the most profitable.

Zbo was a valuable player for the Knicks which they will regret trading. Crawful- not so much. Gallinari - will go down in history as being the next Tshivili (Denver) .

This is flat out ridiculous - mark my words - the Knicks will not be able to sign a single superstar in 2010--period.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
oohah
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11/22/2008  2:27 AM
Posted by 4949:


Yeah, you brought this up before. Look at the history you said. Well, we have a shot and that's all I want.

You wanted to pay Lee like a semi-franchise player 3 weeks ago. Now you are ecstatic about salary dumps. A little consistency from day to day please.

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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11/22/2008  3:22 AM
Posted by sebstar:

This is a really shortsighted way of looking at things, subzero.

And just who the hell were we attracting with Randolph and Crawford? I didnt see anybody beating down our doors to get here.

The Knicks could conceivably get Lebron + Wade or Bosh or Amare...c'mon now, get with it.

[Edited by - sebstar on 11-21-2008 7:05 PM]

We would be attracting mid level exception free agents because we would never have the cap room to sign anybody
Beat the Evil Empire. BEAT MIAMI
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11/22/2008  9:47 AM
It really was an amazing day. At the draft people were talking about packaging Zach's contract with the 6 pick to get out from under it. I don't think anyone expected to see Jamal go for an expiring. I also think that the guys that came in will do well with D'Antoni. The Knicks will still win more than 23 games and there are only a few mistakes left on the roster from the Isiah dark years.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Uptown
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11/22/2008  9:52 AM
IF Walsh didn't make the moves he yesterday, IF doesn't exist.
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11/22/2008  2:08 PM
Posted by CrushAlot:

It really was an amazing day. At the draft people were talking about packaging Zach's contract with the 6 pick to get out from under it. I don't think anyone expected to see Jamal go for an expiring.

at the draft it was talked about moving down 10 slots in the draft to get rid of Zach, don't get it twisted... we still coulda wound up w/some very good talented bigmen if we'd gone that route instead of Gallinari btw... & i think it's always been a realistic expectation to get at least an expiring for Jamal, the question was would Walsh have the balls do pull off a move like that... i definitely saw a couple Al Harrington for Jamal trade ideas posted around here in the weeks before this trade went down, so it's not like this came out of left field, & the Clippers' interest in Zach had been widely known & discussed as well & there were a lot of us who were calling for Zach to be traded for shorter length contracts up to the day he was traded even when he was playing out of his mind... i give Walsh major props for pulling this off but let's not make it out like he came out of right field completely on this one... these were exactly the type of deals that a lot of us were hoping for & were criticized for wanting on these forums for a long time, & we finally got them... thank God we finally have a GM who's got a broader vision than the limited scope that the win now playoffs hungry media & part of the fanbase just never seems to be able to see beyond.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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11/22/2008  2:23 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by CrushAlot:

It really was an amazing day. At the draft people were talking about packaging Zach's contract with the 6 pick to get out from under it. I don't think anyone expected to see Jamal go for an expiring.

at the draft it was talked about moving down 10 slots in the draft to get rid of Zach, don't get it twisted... we still coulda wound up w/some very good talented bigmen if we'd gone that route instead of Gallinari btw...

Trading and asset like the 6th pick and moving down in the draft and us blowing the pick are mutually exclusive. I see what you're saying in hindsight, but at that time that would have been a horrible defeatist trade.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
TMS
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11/22/2008  2:48 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by CrushAlot:

It really was an amazing day. At the draft people were talking about packaging Zach's contract with the 6 pick to get out from under it. I don't think anyone expected to see Jamal go for an expiring.

at the draft it was talked about moving down 10 slots in the draft to get rid of Zach, don't get it twisted... we still coulda wound up w/some very good talented bigmen if we'd gone that route instead of Gallinari btw...

Trading and asset like the 6th pick and moving down in the draft and us blowing the pick are mutually exclusive. I see what you're saying in hindsight, but at that time that would have been a horrible defeatist trade.

the idea of trading Zach for expirings was also said to be a horrible defeatist type trade & yet Donnie's now getting major props for pulling it off... like i said back then when we were talking about these deals, u gotta bite the bullet sometimes & make deals that may not look so hot at the time u make them but have the potential to give u huge returns down the road... that's exactly the mentality the Blazers used when they traded Zach to us to begin with & they became a much better team because of it as it allowed young kids like LeMarcus Aldridge to blossom into a very good NBA player & they freed up a ton of cap space in the process... the same arguments were being made by those were who against bringing Zach here, cuz we felt that developing Lee & Curry were the better option at that point... if we hadn't made that Zach trade & Curry was still progressing the way he was the year before Zach got here, don't u think we'd be better off at this point than we are today? i certainly do.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
subzero0
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11/25/2008  12:34 AM
Posted by subzero0:
Posted by kam77:

Any Superstar can make more money by signing for 6 years 133mil with their current team. A new team can only offer them 106 mil.

So the most logical way a Superstar NBA FA will switch teams is if he can orchestrate a sign and trade so they get their 133mil contract but alos get to choose a new team.

The old team must either let their Star go for nothing, or try to cop a few assets from the new team.

We have to be able to sign a FA outright, but also need to have expiring contracts and other assets to offer in a sign and trade.

So when the time comes, we can send the Curry/JJ expirings alongside some young talent and picks.
Or maybe Curry and a resigned David Lee, with a couple #1s.

This will maximize chances that we can pay a FA the same amount of money they would make if they stayed with their old team... which typically in the NBA is how things happen (stars rarely leave money on the table). Orlando inked Rashard Lewis in this fashion.

Almost, the Knicks should have traded Curry and JJ2 for cap space nobody's and should have traded Zach and/or Crawford for stars or good draft picks. Stars that could have been used to attract a player of Lebron James' caliber. The difference really is in the current value of the players. But it looks like that is not going to happen now.

Instead in a few years from now, after James turns us down we are going to likely sign a couple of good players who will lead the Knicks to the playoffs year after year only to be beaten into a pulp by better teams. This trend will continue to happen until the management is fired and the rebuilding process starts over, albeit after a couple of patch work player additions that will not help us 'get over the hump'.

Sit back and relax Kam, it is going to be a long time before we see a championship team.
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11/25/2008  12:35 AM
So nice I had to post it twice.
Knicksfan
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11/25/2008  12:39 AM
Sub, I have a doubt: You a Knicks fan?

Just curious
Knicks_Fan
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