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oohah
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9/9/2008  2:43 PM
Maybe then he'll have the same value he had when we acquired him for Frye and Francis! (Featuring him on offense won't improve his rebounds to 12/game, BTW.)

Why is that? He gets his own rebound a lot of the time. If he is down around the basket taking a ton of shots his rebounding opportunites go up.

However, I don't think you need to get attached to the 12 rebound or 25 point numbers. The point is to pump up his stats as much as possible to increase his value, then dump him ona team that has sustained an injury or something.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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EnySpree
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9/9/2008  2:46 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

People don't understand that you have to give to get. And when you're giving something really horrible to the other team, you're have to throw in A LOT of sweetner to make it feasible.

So which side is getting something horrible back?

Zach gave us 17/10 even though the team itself was terrible and technically didn't need him and didn't know how to use him.

Darko is possibly injured, Marko Jaric hasn't had any meaningful production since he lead his national team.....

And they are supposedly demanding a draft pick? Fuck them!

Knicks should be allowed to pick any of their young guys including Conley if these bastards want a 1st round draft pick.

BTW GKF, **** Isiah! You negative maniac! Just get it done applies to Donnie telling Memphis to go **** themselves if they think the Knicks are desperate. If the deal was just darko and Marko for Zach....its a don deal. Memphis is the team that wants to try and fleece. Get it done already applies to Memphis too.
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Bonn1997
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9/9/2008  3:27 PM
Posted by oohah:
Maybe then he'll have the same value he had when we acquired him for Frye and Francis! (Featuring him on offense won't improve his rebounds to 12/game, BTW.)

Why is that? He gets his own rebound a lot of the time. If he is down around the basket taking a ton of shots his rebounding opportunites go up.

However, I don't think you need to get attached to the 12 rebound or 25 point numbers.
oohah

He gets his own rebound more often than he rebounds his teammates shots? I'm not sure that's true and even if it is, I imagine the effect would be negligable (maybe .1 or .2 more RPG).
The point is to pump up his stats as much as possible to increase his value, then dump him ona team that has sustained an injury or something.
The point is that usually doesn't work. Are you gonna pump up his stats to a level significantly better than the 24 and 10 he put up when we acquired him for garbage?
Bonn1997
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9/9/2008  3:28 PM
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by Bonn1997:

People don't understand that you have to give to get. And when you're giving something really horrible to the other team, you're have to throw in A LOT of sweetner to make it feasible.

So which side is getting something horrible back?

Zach gave us 17/10 even though the team itself was terrible and technically didn't need him and didn't know how to use him.

Darko is possibly injured, Marko Jaric hasn't had any meaningful production since he lead his national team.....

And they are supposedly demanding a draft pick? Fuck them!

Knicks should be allowed to pick any of their young guys including Conley if these bastards want a 1st round draft pick.

BTW GKF, **** Isiah! You negative maniac! Just get it done applies to Donnie telling Memphis to go **** themselves if they think the Knicks are desperate. If the deal was just darko and Marko for Zach....its a don deal. Memphis is the team that wants to try and fleece. Get it done already applies to Memphis too.

Which side is getting something horrible back? Memphis. I'd be willing to bet more teams have turned down trades involving Zach in the past 2 years than involving all the named Memphis players combined (Marko, Darko, Warrick, and anyone else named).
GKFv2
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9/9/2008  3:44 PM
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by Bonn1997:

People don't understand that you have to give to get. And when you're giving something really horrible to the other team, you're have to throw in A LOT of sweetner to make it feasible.

So which side is getting something horrible back?

Zach gave us 17/10 even though the team itself was terrible and technically didn't need him and didn't know how to use him.

Darko is possibly injured, Marko Jaric hasn't had any meaningful production since he lead his national team.....

And they are supposedly demanding a draft pick? Fuck them!

Knicks should be allowed to pick any of their young guys including Conley if these bastards want a 1st round draft pick.

BTW GKF, **** Isiah! You negative maniac! Just get it done applies to Donnie telling Memphis to go **** themselves if they think the Knicks are desperate. If the deal was just darko and Marko for Zach....its a don deal. Memphis is the team that wants to try and fleece. Get it done already applies to Memphis too.

You are clearly insane. Stay off the crazy pills.
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TMS
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9/9/2008  3:46 PM
Posted by Panos:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Finestrg:
I swear, this team gives away Pau Gasol to the Lakers FOR NOTHING then turns around and trys to hold us hostage?!?!?! FU!!!!

they got 2 1st round picks, a promising young prospect in Crittendon & expiring contracts for Pau Gasol.

The picks are garbage, Critterdon is a mid-level prospect, and the money is negligible. Mind you this was for a really good player in his prime that resulted in, what was looked upon at the time, as the final piece of the Laker puzzle. Its confusing that now they are acting so tough for Darko of all players.

gimme a break... if the Knicks were to have given up 2 future picks, a "midlevel prospect" like say, Wilson Chandler & an expiring for him you'd have people like BRIGGS & many others going ape**** that we gave up way too much...how do u figure the money is negligible when you're talking about gaining max cap space to sign an impact FA? if we were gaining cap space like that it would make a huge deal for many Knick fans... but because it was MEM that made the deal they gave up nothing... the hypocrisy on these forums never ceases to amaze me.

face it guys, Zach Randolph carries almost zero value around the NBA... for anyone to delude themselves that we can get valuable pieces for him in any trade before his contract becomes an expiring is reaching at some very small straws at this point.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-08-2008 5:33 PM]

1) LA already had a superstar, and needed his sidekick. We would be putting all our eggs in
on basket like we did with Eddy.
2) There's a huge difference between the Knicks' 2 picks and LAs' 2 picks. If the Knicks
got Gasol, they would likely still not be any better than Memphis was with him, which is a
lottery team. As I said before, LA already had Kobe, so adding Gasol made a huge difference
and catapulted them into the playoffs. So we would have been trading away 2 top 10 picks,
and LA traded 2 picks in the late 20's.

i well understand the situation w/LA but the fact remains u simply can't consider even 2 late 1st round picks & a huge amount of cap space insignificant by any means, i don't care what team you're talking about... you don't think there's good talent available in the 20s every year in the draft? come on bro, u know better.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Finestrg
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9/9/2008  4:53 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Panos:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Finestrg:
I swear, this team gives away Pau Gasol to the Lakers FOR NOTHING then turns around and trys to hold us hostage?!?!?! FU!!!!

they got 2 1st round picks, a promising young prospect in Crittendon & expiring contracts for Pau Gasol.

The picks are garbage, Critterdon is a mid-level prospect, and the money is negligible. Mind you this was for a really good player in his prime that resulted in, what was looked upon at the time, as the final piece of the Laker puzzle. Its confusing that now they are acting so tough for Darko of all players.

gimme a break... if the Knicks were to have given up 2 future picks, a "midlevel prospect" like say, Wilson Chandler & an expiring for him you'd have people like BRIGGS & many others going ape**** that we gave up way too much...how do u figure the money is negligible when you're talking about gaining max cap space to sign an impact FA? if we were gaining cap space like that it would make a huge deal for many Knick fans... but because it was MEM that made the deal they gave up nothing... the hypocrisy on these forums never ceases to amaze me.

face it guys, Zach Randolph carries almost zero value around the NBA... for anyone to delude themselves that we can get valuable pieces for him in any trade before his contract becomes an expiring is reaching at some very small straws at this point.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-08-2008 5:33 PM]

1) LA already had a superstar, and needed his sidekick. We would be putting all our eggs in
on basket like we did with Eddy.
2) There's a huge difference between the Knicks' 2 picks and LAs' 2 picks. If the Knicks
got Gasol, they would likely still not be any better than Memphis was with him, which is a
lottery team. As I said before, LA already had Kobe, so adding Gasol made a huge difference
and catapulted them into the playoffs. So we would have been trading away 2 top 10 picks,
and LA traded 2 picks in the late 20's.

i well understand the situation w/LA but the fact remains u simply can't consider even 2 late 1st round picks & a huge amount of cap space insignificant by any means, i don't care what team you're talking about... you don't think there's good talent available in the 20s every year in the draft? come on bro, u know better.

Yeah T, I think we all agree 2 late first rounders and cap space (something we're actually looking forward to ourselves once we unload Randolph) and a young (albeit unproven) PG prospect like Crittenton is indeed good value taken on it's own and overall but for a PROVEN STAR player like Paul Gasol?? It looked a little underwhelming at the time to say the least. Still does to most in fact. A lot of people had a real difficult time swallowing this trade - many thought Memphis recklessly just handed the Lake-show a championship last season. Now as it did turn out, the Celts proved to be a little tougher than just 'The Big Three' and pulled it out BUT - the Lakers did go to the finals after sustaining a terrible injury to their starting center AND I'd say that, injuries aside, they'll be making at least a couple of trips back the next few seasons once they add Bynum back to the mix - unless Portland stays afloat until Roy gets back and they jel quickly. Damn Verizon Fios - I can't believe I switched from Cablevision to Fios and now I don't get the NBA package anymore. Talk about me not doing my homework on something.... Jezzz. Oh well, a little advice to all the boys, if you don't have the NBA package and you're on the fence about getting it, this is the year to get it!!!
TMS
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9/9/2008  5:14 PM
no matter what the trade resulted in for the Lakers, the Grizzlies needed to make the deal that benefits them... what better trades were out there for them to make at the time? do u think a trade of Pau for someone like Shawn Marion woulda benefitted them so much more? i personally don't see it... i think the trade that benefits them the most is exactly the one they ended up making... a team that's in rebuild mode has no need for another aging vet making big dollars, but they do have a big need for draft picks, young prospects & cap space... what happens w/the Lakers from here on out should not be their concern in the least bit... they need to be focusing on how to best utilize those picks & cap space so they can maximize the value they got outta that deal... i think they made the right move & have always thought so.

to be honest, i really have zero idea why they would even be interested in making this deal for Zach after all that... i mean he's not an old vet but man, does he have a whole lotta luggage... i can't blame them 1 bit for asking for another pick to take on that albatross.
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Bonn1997
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9/9/2008  6:09 PM
Posted by TMS:

no matter what the trade resulted in for the Lakers, the Grizzlies needed to make the deal that benefits them... what better trades were out there for them to make at the time? do u think a trade of Pau for someone like Shawn Marion woulda benefitted them so much more? i personally don't see it... i think the trade that benefits them the most is exactly the one they ended up making... a team that's in rebuild mode has no need for another aging vet making big dollars, but they do have a big need for draft picks, young prospects & cap space... what happens w/the Lakers from here on out should not be their concern in the least bit... they need to be focusing on how to best utilize those picks & cap space so they can maximize the value they got outta that deal... i think they made the right move & have always thought so.

to be honest, i really have zero idea why they would even be interested in making this deal for Zach after all that... i mean he's not an old vet but man, does he have a whole lotta luggage... i can't blame them 1 bit for asking for another pick to take on that albatross.
If you ran Memphis, would you do the deal if you were getting back a lottery protected 1st round pick or would you just stay away from Zach?
BRIGGS
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9/9/2008  6:15 PM
Knicks should offer Zach a buyout that is a tad less than a three year MLE

While many teams might not want zach with all of the $$$$ a 3 year MLE is a bargain and a half

If we owe zach 48mm$ offer him 36 cash a three year MLE is 16.5 which is a net 4.5+mm

That would lower the cap number in year 3 to 12mm and keep us away from taking back crp players and giving up things we dont want.
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oohah
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9/9/2008  6:33 PM
He gets his own rebound more often than he rebounds his teammates shots?

I don't know if he gets other people rebound more or less than his own. I would imagine he gets his own rebound less by percentage, but probably around 3 a game. He rebounds off his own miss plenty. Sometimes more than once in a single possession. You haven't noticed that?
I'm not sure that's true and even if it is, I imagine the effect would be negligable (maybe .1 or .2 more RPG).

Well your .1 or .2 number is based on nothing whatsoever. Here is what my numbers are projected on: Randolph averaged 10.3 rebounds per game last year on 32.30 MPG. If he plays even 4 more minutes per game this season (36.30 MPG), with the increased number of shots taken per game in D'Antoni's system Randolph could easily raise his rebounding by 1.7 per game to reach the 12 per game average. Easily.

I guess that you are going to dispute that player's scoring averages go up in D'Antoni's system too?
The point is that usually doesn't work.

The point is actually it does work. Eddie Curry was featured up to 18 PPG for Chrissake! We are talking about a coach who runs the biggest numbers system in the NBA! I can't believe you haven't seen plenty of players have their numbers pumped up by increased minutes/shots/system.

Hey Bonn: Sell high, buy low. we trade Randolph now we are selling low as low can be, getting Milicic and Jaric.
Are you gonna pump up his stats to a level significantly better than the 24 and 10 he put up when we acquired him for garbage?

Like I said, if he stays here and is featured as the primary offensive option in D'Antoni's offense, and they play him big minutes with the express purpose of showcasing him, he can up his scoring and rebounding averages.

In fact, as you point out yourself, Randolph put up similar numbers in Portland just one season ago, in only 3 more minutes per game! And he wasn't playing in the Mike D'Antoni shoot until you drop style.

So what is it you are saying? That Randolph can't put up big numbers like I described? Because you have already pointed out that he can(bolded above)...

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 09-09-2008 6:35 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
sebstar
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9/9/2008  6:44 PM
Posted by TMS:

no matter what the trade resulted in for the Lakers, the Grizzlies needed to make the deal that benefits them... what better trades were out there for them to make at the time? do u think a trade of Pau for someone like Shawn Marion woulda benefitted them so much more? i personally don't see it... i think the trade that benefits them the most is exactly the one they ended up making... a team that's in rebuild mode has no need for another aging vet making big dollars, but they do have a big need for draft picks, young prospects & cap space... what happens w/the Lakers from here on out should not be their concern in the least bit... they need to be focusing on how to best utilize those picks & cap space so they can maximize the value they got outta that deal... i think they made the right move & have always thought so.

to be honest, i really have zero idea why they would even be interested in making this deal for Zach after all that... i mean he's not an old vet but man, does he have a whole lotta luggage... i can't blame them 1 bit for asking for another pick to take on that albatross.

Damn TMS, you're defending the indefensible. IIRC, there were several GM's who were incredulous over the deal and swore that they had better offers either on the table or in the proposal stage.

I mean we're talking about essentially two seconder rounders given the fact that they handed them a seven-foot, all-star for nothing. The rest? Its as if the Lakers just handed them whatever they had lying around.

If I'm giving up Pau, I'm at least getting a top-level prospect, or a lottery pick, back. Bottom line.

Switching gears, Memphis is now the third team that has gone on record in shown interest in Zach. Before everyone was convinced that trading him an impossibility. I commend Walsh for not giving in to the myopia regarding Zach, among the Knick fanbase. Good for Walsh in resisting the "honor" in getting fleeced just to rid ourselves of a 20/10 power forward in his prime.
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Finestrg
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9/9/2008  6:46 PM
All valid points TMS. But just to put 1st round picks in prospective here for a sec. because you did comment on not blaming Memphis for asking for our 1st rounder --- Of course nothing you don't know here, but just to clarify --- If I were a team like the Lakers, a successful 50-something win club, trading away a 1st rounder or 2 (provided they were mine and not inherited from another team that was struggling) isn't as big a deal because they are lower 1st round picks which for the most part don't yield the same type of talent you'll find in the lottery. There are always exceptions, that's what makes the draft and the few years following the draft so fun for fans (and nerve-wracking for GMs), but that's usually how it unfolds. That's the reason other successful teams like Phoenix have chosen recently to just deal away their 1st rounders for cash come draft time - the thinking is they're deep enough already and they can't possibly add anything of value with that quality of a pick (say 25th or lower) that even has a shot of making their team let alone cracking their rotation. It's not worth it to them and it's not fair to the prospect. Those picks are expendable if you're the Lakers, bottom line. No skin off their backs - they had expendable picks and Memphis chose to do that deal. But that's the Lakers....

Now if you're a sorry state of affairs like the Knicks coming off a few dismal seasons in a row, their 1st rounder is obviously much more valuable than the Lakers'. And coach D'Antoni's style, Chris Duhon and Anthony Roberson aren't gonna change it's value all that much. They'll be more fun to watch and the losing will be a little easier to swallow now knowing this thing is moving forward in the right direction once again - but seriously, what do we really have a right to expect next year? 30 some-odd wins maybe? Maybe a little better. Maybe a lot worse. It's gonna take time. We need that pick. That pick will be ultra valuable to us, esp. since we probable won't have one in 2010 (we owe a pick to Utah from the Marbury trade with Pheonix). You said you don't blame Memphis for asking for a pick in order to take Zach, I probably would too, but it doesn't mean you're gonna get it. Their GM has come out and said they're looking for a veteran presence to come in and anchor their squad. And they have the cap room & a decided hole at PF now that they let Pau Gasol go. We have Zach who's a younger vet PF in his prime who's still very productive, like him or not - exactly what they're looking for. And what they're giving us is not a lot - an underachieving big man who almost everyone out there is down on (I'm one of the only ones around who thinks he still has some promise) and an overpaid wing that doesn't fit in there at all now that the have OJ Mayo.

Bottom line is if the Knicks were the Lakers trying to unload Zach, you throw in a 1st rounder and be done with it. Thing is, we're not the Lakers and our pick is 100X more valuable than theirs. I don't think we can do it, even if we did add Crittenton. We might be surrendering a top 5 pick there, who knows...


[Edited by - finestrg on 09-09-2008 7:00 PM]
Anji
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9/9/2008  7:28 PM
I am looking forward to seeing what Mike D can get out of Darko and if if he get his offensive back online. He is only 23 years old. Another JC on the team is also a plus..............
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9/9/2008  8:40 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/10/sports/basketball/10knicks.html?ref=basketball

Trade is dead and Knicks will likely enter the season with this current team.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
Uptown
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9/9/2008  9:10 PM
Posted by GKFv2:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/10/sports/basketball/10knicks.html?ref=basketball

Trade is dead and Knicks will likely enter the season with this current team.

Just saw this....If Memphis wanted a first round pick in this deal then I would have turned it down aswell. Teams know we are desperate and they are trying to stick it to us. Fortunately, Walsh isn't trying to get fleeced. Unfortunately, we are stuck with Zach and Eddy. I cant stomach the idea of watching Zach and Eddy share the paint, trying to increase thier trade value.
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9/9/2008  9:23 PM
Beck says the deal is "dormant" not necessarily dead.

Man, this is one tough situation, that I do not envy Walsh for being in.

I think anyone who claims to think that they picked the right choice down the road on this deal, if Walsh takes it, and rails on him for it is going to be seen as being pretty darn stubborn in my view. I expect some fans to use this as ammunition against or in support of the decision, but this is really tough.

I think Jaric's deal is problematic, and I can understand holding out for more.

Yet, Randolph's value is clearly low, which is also problematic, and while cutting salary by $10 mil for 2011 is nice, Jaric is not going to be easily movable without packaging him with some important assets. He could up his value, as could Z-Bo, but I think some have fairly pointed out that even if either player ups their value, the skeptics, and some will be GM's, will attribute it to D'Antoni. Of course, some of those same folks will also discredit D'Antoni because he had great players like Nash and Amare, but this is sports where experts, or "experts" are either 100% right or 100% wrong.

I admit I am even affected by what I stated about Z-Bo and Jaric's value. The problem is that we as Knick fans are not particularly objective, but neither are those that aren't after years of the Knicks being the lightning rod of jokes and criticism in not just the NBA but professional American sports, of which consists of a great deal of anti-NY (aka "elitist") sentiment.

Can Zach's value get worse? Sure.

I really don't know the answer, but I do think that the reluctance to take deals like this, and make others is going to bode well for the organization's standing position in other deals in the long run.
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9/9/2008  9:30 PM
Posted by GKFv2:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/10/sports/basketball/10knicks.html?ref=basketball

Trade is dead and Knicks will likely enter the season with this current team.

I still think that something is being considered. I recall that one of the local Knicks reporters (Hahn?) was talking to one of his Knicks sources, and he said that the guy clammed up at some point and would not go on any longer with the subject.

This was in the Times' ariticle:
Asked if a deal with Memphis was still possible, Walsh said, “I can’t say anything is over,” but he said there was no active proposal on the table. “They’re dormant,” he said of the talks.

Walsh used the word "dormant,"which means, among other things:
marked by a suspension of activity: as a: temporarily devoid of external activity <a dormant volcano> b: temporarily in abeyance yet capable of being activated

All of this might mean that one side is waiting for the other to "blink," or both sides are considering the ramifications of accepting the last offer that was on the table. Walsh might also be a bit turned off by the "public" nature of the negotiations between the two teams, and how the media is putting pressure on the Knicks to get things done. Maybe he is pissed off with leaks coming out of the Memphis camp, and the media scruitiny that he is now facing?

I still have a suspicion that something is going to happen.

There were enough rumors going around recently to make me think that something is going on. Perhaps he is attempting to repair the leaks on his side, and try to keep the rumors from the Knicks side to a minimum.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
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9/9/2008  9:55 PM
the guy that should be traded is curry b/c he not only has phsyical training issues, but he has motivational problems and will be quite content to take a step back and pout instead of going for his. at least with zach, you got a guy that busts his tail to get in shape and doesn't give a crap about what's going on around him and just wants the ball on the court. i would take a risk with the 20/10 player and hope he can be convinced to work with a team, rather than a dude that doesn't take his craft seriously and is a mental pansy. well, i mean i would take zach *for now* if the choice is between him and eddy.
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9/9/2008  9:56 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

the guy that should be traded is curry b/c he not only has phsyical training issues, but he has motivational problems and will be quite content to take a step back and pout instead of going for his. at least with zach, you got a guy that busts his tail to get in shape and doesn't give a crap about what's going on around him and just wants the ball on the court. i would take a risk with the 20/10 player and hope he can be convinced to work with a team, rather than a dude that doesn't take his craft seriously and is a mental pansy. well, i mean i would take zach *for now* if the choice is between him and eddy.

I agree but I don't care who goes first to be honest as long as both are eventually gone.
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