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fishmike
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6/19/2008  2:36 PM
Posted by SlimPack:

I used to buy into the increase the player's value theory, but I don't anymore.

Mike D at his press conference said something like The players on the roster are the players he intends to win with (although that could have been lip service). And, I don't think Walsh would hire a head coach just to fire him 3 or 4 years later. Walsh must have thought there was at least a chance that D'antoni could win a championship as the coach. Either that or Walsh put a higher priority on making the Knicks a good team in the near future over winning a championship in the more distant future.

Frankly even though that's what I think I'm not upset at hiring Mike D over Thibs, or another coach that would have put more of a stress on defense. And that's because if the Knicks can become what the Dallas Mavericks were under Don Nelson (a very good regular season team that couldn't get over the hump in the playoffs) than, honestly, I'd be satisfied with that. I don't know, maybe my standards have been lowered too much.

[Edited by - Slimpack on 06-19-2008 2:29 PM]
you have to get good first. You have see players in winning situations. Nobody can evaluate this mess as is. You need a guy that you know and has proven he can get the most of players and coach a winning team. THEN you can start taking a look at the roster. For all we know Crawford becomes on of the leagues clutch 4th qtr shooters. We would never know becuase there is no 15 point shot in the NBA to get us close enough

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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SlimPack
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6/19/2008  2:48 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by SlimPack:

I used to buy into the increase the player's value theory, but I don't anymore.

Mike D at his press conference said something like The players on the roster are the players he intends to win with (although that could have been lip service). And, I don't think Walsh would hire a head coach just to fire him 3 or 4 years later. Walsh must have thought there was at least a chance that D'antoni could win a championship as the coach. Either that or Walsh put a higher priority on making the Knicks a good team in the near future over winning a championship in the more distant future.

Frankly even though that's what I think I'm not upset at hiring Mike D over Thibs, or another coach that would have put more of a stress on defense. And that's because if the Knicks can become what the Dallas Mavericks were under Don Nelson (a very good regular season team that couldn't get over the hump in the playoffs) than, honestly, I'd be satisfied with that. I don't know, maybe my standards have been lowered too much.

[Edited by - Slimpack on 06-19-2008 2:29 PM]
you have to get good first. You have see players in winning situations. Nobody can evaluate this mess as is. You need a guy that you know and has proven he can get the most of players and coach a winning team. THEN you can start taking a look at the roster. For all we know Crawford becomes on of the leagues clutch 4th qtr shooters. We would never know becuase there is no 15 point shot in the NBA to get us close enough

Well I agree that some of the players on our roster probably looked worse over the last couple of seasons than they really are, thanks to Isiah's horrible coaching, and Marbury sabotaging things as usual.

But, I don't think that reevaluating the players is Walsh's only goal with Mike. If that were the case Walsh probably would have signed an experienced coach with a lower price tag to a 1 or 2 year deal (like Del Harris, or Pual Westphaul), and then put that coach in as best as possible position to succeed, (by getting rid of the likes of Zbo and Stiffbury). Instead he signed a bigger name coach to a 4 year contract. To me, that seems to more so signal that Mike is the guy Walsh wants coaching the team going forward.
fishmike
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6/19/2008  3:05 PM
Slim.. I agree once again. You cant really plan for a coach like you can with players. Sometimes you have to work with what is out there. That being said I firmly believe DW is a big fan of DAntoni what he was able to do with Pho. I think when he became available that DW saw Mike as a great opportunity to accelerate the process of getting this team back to winning basketball. Once you accomplish that you can start to strategerize how to build a champion.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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6/19/2008  3:46 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

Pho had the 12th ranked defense last year. You act like it was a layup drill for the other team. Its been well documented that DAntoni asked that better defenders be added to his roster (Kurt Thomas, Marcus Banks, Raja Bell).

What gives? Its the stache isnt it.. you hate the stache

Thomas - got rid of him as the GM

Banks - never bothered to use him as the head coach

Bell - transformed him into more of an offensive player than defensive

12th ranked defense is a case of statistics lying.

I love the stache, especially when Giambi thinks it helps him hit better.

[Edited by - islesfan on 19-06-2008 2:13 PM]

Kerr was GM when Kurt Thomas was traded and it was a cost cutting move.

Care to back up the Bell assessment?
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Uptown
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6/19/2008  3:48 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Players gush about D'Antonio because he doesn't ask them to play defense and there's no such thing as a bad or rushed shot in his System. I thought attracting FA's was a pointless exercise anyway, at least according to you.
So which is it? If you value FAs Mike is the best coach. You want to have your cake and eat it. If you care about the cap and space for FAs there is no better choice than DAntoni. Lebron isnt coming to play with Mark JAckson
there's no such thing as a bad or rushed shot in his System.
Is that how and why the have the league's highest shooting %? By chucking?
because he doesn't ask them to play defense
Pho is 12th in the league in opposing FG% and they are ranked higher than Utah among others. I guess Mike asks his team to play more D than Sloan does. Good for Mike.
D'Antonio brings a regular season winning culture when he has an MVP PG and 2 freakishly athletic all star forwards.
Was Nash an MVP before playing with Mike? Dont think he was...
Players statistics clearly get better under D'Antonio. That's what usually happens in a run and gun, shoot in 7 seconds or less, system.
Wins also increase under DAntonio. You seem to overlook that. Your welcome for the reminder
As for D'Antonio type players, we aren't getting Marion, Amare or Nash in their primes and Bell, Diaw and Barbosa are average players with inflated numbers.
Nash left Dal because they didnt want to pay him. Under Mike he became a 2 time MVP. Marion won more all stars with Mike than before him. And more games also. When Amare was hurt did Pho end up in the lottery?

Since facts dont impress you let me give you some. When their freakish athletic center Amare played 3 games Mike D started the average Boris Diaw at center in a conference dominated by size and won 54 games. Oh yea.. they also went the WCF that year as well.

Your points are transparent and your arguements stink. You can label it anyway you want but Mike wins and players get better under him. He's also shown that he can plug an "average" player who's a SF into center to replace "a freakish athletic all star" and that team still wins 54 games and goes to the NBA final 4. Must be a pretty good system he runs eh?

Great post Fish......I was going to jump in but you have pretty much covered all bases.
newyorknewyork
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6/19/2008  3:55 PM
Even if Walsh hired D'Antoni to try and win championships but D'Antoni fails because his teams lack defense but yet we still win games and make pushes in the playoffs, I can't complain.

By the time D'Antoni's contract runs out, the roster would be flexible for changes especially if we are competing. Cap situation would probably be solid. At that time Walsh can make decisions on possibly hiring a better defensive minded coach over D'Antoni &/or making lateral changes in the roster or upgrades in the roster to make the team better defensively and try and win it all.
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fishmike
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6/19/2008  3:59 PM
if Pho had our budget the would have been in a finals
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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6/19/2008  4:08 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

Pho had the 12th ranked defense last year. You act like it was a layup drill for the other team. Its been well documented that DAntoni asked that better defenders be added to his roster (Kurt Thomas, Marcus Banks, Raja Bell).

What gives? Its the stache isnt it.. you hate the stache

Thomas - got rid of him as the GM

Banks - never bothered to use him as the head coach

Bell - transformed him into more of an offensive player than defensive

12th ranked defense is a case of statistics lying.

I love the stache, especially when Giambi thinks it helps him hit better.

[Edited by - islesfan on 19-06-2008 2:13 PM]

Kerr was GM when Kurt Thomas was traded and it was a cost cutting move.

Care to back up the Bell assessment?

If D'Antonio really cared about defense, Thomas wouldn't have been traded.

Bell's offensive numbers went up and despite all the extra possessions his defensive numbers stayed the same or went down. Or you could just look at his play.

Glad to see you're no longer using Banks as a weak example of D'Antonio's attention to defense.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/19/2008  4:10 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Even if Walsh hired D'Antoni to try and win championships but D'Antoni fails because his teams lack defense but yet we still win games and make pushes in the playoffs, I can't complain.

By the time D'Antoni's contract runs out, the roster would be flexible for changes especially if we are competing. Cap situation would probably be solid. At that time Walsh can make decisions on possibly hiring a better defensive minded coach over D'Antoni &/or making lateral changes in the roster or upgrades in the roster to make the team better defensively and try and win it all.

So if they underachieve because of a lack of something so fundamental, you won't find that a reason to complain?

That mentality is nothing less than shocking.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
franco12
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6/19/2008  4:12 PM
I honestly can't believe we're still arguing about getting D'Antoni as coach.

Until we see Walsh & D'Antoni in action, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm not asking for 4+ years like Dolan gave Isiah. Just maybe 4 minutes of game play in game 1- is that too much to ask?
fishmike
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6/19/2008  4:14 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Even if Walsh hired D'Antoni to try and win championships but D'Antoni fails because his teams lack defense but yet we still win games and make pushes in the playoffs, I can't complain.

By the time D'Antoni's contract runs out, the roster would be flexible for changes especially if we are competing. Cap situation would probably be solid. At that time Walsh can make decisions on possibly hiring a better defensive minded coach over D'Antoni &/or making lateral changes in the roster or upgrades in the roster to make the team better defensively and try and win it all.

So if they underachieve because of a lack of something so fundamental, you won't find that a reason to complain?

That mentality is nothing less than shocking.
thats the whole point. You have failed to demonstrate in any way shape or form that the Suns underachieved. On the other hand I have given good examples of how they overachieved.

Knicks havent played a game under DAntoni yet...
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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6/19/2008  4:18 PM
Posted by fishmike:

if Pho had our budget the would have been in a finals

Having a bigger budget wasn't going to improve the overall team defense or lack thereof.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
franco12
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6/19/2008  4:20 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

if Pho had our budget the would have been in a finals

Having a bigger budget wasn't going to improve the overall team defense or lack thereof.

Phoenix gave draft picks away because signing them to rookie deals was going to impact their cap number- they gave away a chance to add talented players for $3MM.

This lack of depth has hurt them.
islesfan
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6/19/2008  4:21 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Even if Walsh hired D'Antoni to try and win championships but D'Antoni fails because his teams lack defense but yet we still win games and make pushes in the playoffs, I can't complain.

By the time D'Antoni's contract runs out, the roster would be flexible for changes especially if we are competing. Cap situation would probably be solid. At that time Walsh can make decisions on possibly hiring a better defensive minded coach over D'Antoni &/or making lateral changes in the roster or upgrades in the roster to make the team better defensively and try and win it all.

So if they underachieve because of a lack of something so fundamental, you won't find that a reason to complain?

That mentality is nothing less than shocking.
thats the whole point. You have failed to demonstrate in any way shape or form that the Suns underachieved. On the other hand I have given good examples of how they overachieved.

Knicks havent played a game under DAntoni yet...

You think the Suns were an above average defensive team. What's the point of arguing with someone who believes that?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/19/2008  4:22 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

if Pho had our budget the would have been in a finals

Having a bigger budget wasn't going to improve the overall team defense or lack thereof.

Phoenix gave draft picks away because signing them to rookie deals was going to impact their cap number- they gave away a chance to add talented players for $3MM.

This lack of depth has hurt them.

D'Antonio has had depth. He just chose not to use those players, like Banks.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
sebstar
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6/19/2008  4:23 PM
I give this guy credit for helping to devise schemes that neutralized the Triangle and Kobe for that matter, but I don’t know if this cat is worth getting this worked up over. For one, I find it interesting that some here on this board are completely comfortable with marginalizing Doc's contributions by citing the talent he had at his disposal, yet we don’t hear the same rhetoric when it comes to Thibs. Thibs benefited from the perfect storm of talent and desire just as much as Doc.

I'll give you the fact that there is more of a box office appeal to D'Antoni, but I'm not that sold on Thibs. Seems like a flavor of the month.

He's been around a minute, why is his name popping up now as head coach material?
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newyorknewyork
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6/19/2008  4:25 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Even if Walsh hired D'Antoni to try and win championships but D'Antoni fails because his teams lack defense but yet we still win games and make pushes in the playoffs, I can't complain.

By the time D'Antoni's contract runs out, the roster would be flexible for changes especially if we are competing. Cap situation would probably be solid. At that time Walsh can make decisions on possibly hiring a better defensive minded coach over D'Antoni &/or making lateral changes in the roster or upgrades in the roster to make the team better defensively and try and win it all.

So if they underachieve because of a lack of something so fundamental, you won't find that a reason to complain?

That mentality is nothing less than shocking.

To me D'Antoni's job is to win games, make games entertaining, and keep the morale of the team & organization high. After we accomplish all that then we can start talking about makes steps towards a championship.
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martin
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6/19/2008  4:28 PM
Posted by islesfan:


If D'Antonio really cared about defense, Thomas wouldn't have been traded.

Bell's offensive numbers went up and despite all the extra possessions his defensive numbers stayed the same or went down. Or you could just look at his play.

Glad to see you're no longer using Banks as a weak example of D'Antonio's attention to defense.

Your debating skills are very laughable.

Phoenix have a history of selling picks and giving players away because of tight money constraints - 1st round picks, JJ, upcoming Marion deal - and your answer is that if Mike really cared about defense he would have kept Kurt? Kurt, who was a major player in a playoff run the previous year is just thrown away for nothing cause a coach decides he doesn't care about defense?

Show me Bells numbers and how his offense went up.

From Hollinger:
2006-07 season: Bell didn't shoot the ball quite as well as he did in 2005-06, but otherwise his season was a near-perfect replica of his first one in Phoenix -- in fact, his 40-minute averages changed by only one-tenth of an assist. Bell received belated recognition for his impact a season earlier when he made second-team All-Defense -- it helps when you're the stopper on a team that's nationally televised 81 times -- but his impact at that end was also remarkably unchanged.

Bell had the second-best turnover ratio among shooting guards, a consequence of the fact that he almost never dribbles. Offensively, he's almost entirely a catch-and-shoot player who feeds off the attention Phoenix's other offensive talents get. He's a deadly shooter, though, who is at 41.2 percent on 3-pointers for his career.

Scouting report: Bell gets a lot of attention for his feisty defense. He's a pest who likes to play physically off the ball and bait opponents into offensive fouls when they react. His Louganis acts have become the stuff of legend. He ranked fourth in the league in offensive fouls drawn with 72 thanks mainly to those off-ball dives. Once his man has the ball, Bell is real solid, too, though he isn't quite in the Bowen/Artest class.

Bell likes to shoot the long ball but gets caught with his toes on the line quite a bit, producing long 2s instead of 3s. Bell will also shoot a 2-pointer off one dribble, especially if he's coming off a screen, but he won't take it to the rim unless he's in transition. Because of this he rarely gets to the line, sporting the fifth-worst rate of free-throw attempts per field-goal attempt among shooting guards.

2007-08 outlook: The 31-year-old Bell will have to work to keep his spot in the starting lineup; the arrival of Grant Hill and the continued development of Leandro Barbosa create a logjam on the wings. His defense should allow him to win out, however, as the Suns need a stopper on the wings more than ever now that Kurt Thomas is gone.

Bell's age (31) isn't a good omen for his offensive production, but because he's a stand-still shooter his decline should be gradual, and all but imperceptible on a year-to-year basis. The far greater worry is that he'll lose a step on D.

Bell's PPG have gone down each year, rebounds up every year. Usage rate down (the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes.). Shots down, makes down.

No where did I mention that Banks was a key part of an argument. I have asked YOU repeatedly to back up your assessment that Mike the GM was all offensive related and Banks was really the only major move that Mike made as GM and Banks ain't an offensive guy. You have also made the claim that D'Antonio cares nothing about defense and yet he keeps trying to bring in guys that focus on D - Kurt, Bell, Grant. Did they pan out? Not really.
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islesfan
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6/19/2008  4:31 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Even if Walsh hired D'Antoni to try and win championships but D'Antoni fails because his teams lack defense but yet we still win games and make pushes in the playoffs, I can't complain.

By the time D'Antoni's contract runs out, the roster would be flexible for changes especially if we are competing. Cap situation would probably be solid. At that time Walsh can make decisions on possibly hiring a better defensive minded coach over D'Antoni &/or making lateral changes in the roster or upgrades in the roster to make the team better defensively and try and win it all.

So if they underachieve because of a lack of something so fundamental, you won't find that a reason to complain?

That mentality is nothing less than shocking.

To me D'Antoni's job is to win games, make games entertaining, and keep the morale of the team & organization high. After we accomplish all that then we can start talking about makes steps towards a championship.

You don't build to be an average team and then one day say "Ok, now we can start thinking about competing for a championship". If you're not thinking about it now, you're just wasting time and assets.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
newyorknewyork
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6/19/2008  4:35 PM
Suns gave away Joe Johnson for Diaw and picks. If it was New York they don't let Joe Johnson go. Unless they are getting another young star back. But they aren't going to let a guy like Joe Johnson go in order to save cap space.

The same Joe Johnson that helped the Hawks push Boston to 7games.


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thibs...

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