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Where in the history of the NBA has a 20 year old 20-10 C traded with a HIGH lottery pick for
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Bonn1997
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6/6/2008  2:44 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by eViL:
Honestly, I rather keep Zach all season and be terrible and get another top 5 pick then trade out of the best draft position that we've had in many years. It's been sickening to watch this team trade away picks that could have led to Brandon Roy, Randy Foye, Rudy Gay, or LaMarcus Aldridge.
ahhh.. the voice of reason. Zach's contract doesnt freak me out. Giving up more talent does. No way we trade down. If Zach cant become a servicable player for us he can sit at home.

Sit at home and watch top FAs sign elsewhere because he's on our roster in 2010/11. Brilliant.
sit home and watch Bos play in the finals because Ainge aggressively stocked his team with picks and used them to trade for KG and Allen, while you trade your picks/talent to get rid of Zach. Really brilliant.

So when we have purged the roster including the guys up for extensions in Nate, Lee, Balk, etc who is on this team we are luring FAs too? Did you ever answer that? You like to snit rather then discuss... do feel free to share your ideas amigo.
Yes, I did yesterday. I think it's in the Philadelphia thread.
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fishmike
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6/6/2008  2:47 PM
who were the players?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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6/6/2008  3:12 PM
how would you rank the risk of the knicks taking a player no better than a rotational guy off the bench at #6?

is the risk of drafting that type of player worth keeping zach (if the deal to move him required the #6 pick)?

and can the knicks acquire another #1 in the mid-teens using other means?

these are tough and viable questions that d'alsh must ask themselves...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-06-2008 3:13 PM]
Bonn1997
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6/6/2008  3:14 PM
Posted by fishmike:

who were the players?

Basically the best players we can get with the MLE (so long as the contract ends by 2011) and each of our draft picks and trades. It's impossible to be more specific than that. You're also assuming that all of the 20 or so FAs I've listed require coming to a team with a strong intact core as opposed to wanting to be part of developing a core. The alternative of not being able to get FAs but sticking with guys like Diaw and Redd doesn't sound promising. I'm not gonna go so far as the other guys and say that you're plan is just like Isiah's; it might be more of a glorified Isiah plan.
Bonn1997
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6/6/2008  3:15 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

how would you rank the risk of the knicks taking a player no better than a rotational guy off the bench at #6?

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-06-2008 3:13 PM]
That's a great question. The odds are high that's all you get or perhaps you get an average starter. I'd love to be able to keep the pick and it sucks that we even have to consider ways to entice teams to take back our terrible contracts, though.

fishmike
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6/6/2008  3:26 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

who were the players?

Basically the best players we can get with the MLE (so long as the contract ends by 2011) and each of our draft picks and trades. It's impossible to be more specific than that. You're also assuming that all of the 20 or so FAs I've listed require coming to a team with a strong intact core as opposed to wanting to be part of developing a core. The alternative of not being able to get FAs but sticking with guys like Diaw and Redd doesn't sound promising. I'm not gonna go so far as the other guys and say that you're plan is just like Isiah's; it might be more of a glorified Isiah plan.
so you have no plan.. just a bunch of question marks. Kinda what I thought. No players targeted, no guys on your radar, just a fart in the wind.

As for guys like Diaw and Redd both of those were mentioned along with more desirable players like Bogut and Barbosa. Barbosa has a better career shooting % than Allan Houston, Diaw can play 3 positions and is a good defender and shoots 50%, Redd spreads the floor as good as any shooter in the NBA and plays great away from the ball like Reggie Miller.

Also these were just ideas. I would engage you more but when I try to understand what your point is you dont really make one. Just ambiguous statements like "Basically the best players we can get with the MLE (so long as the contract ends by 2011)"
I am cool with you not liking my ideas or thoughts.. but how about offering your own? Aside from Lebron in 2010
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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6/6/2008  4:42 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

before any stance can be made...i think the first question is what is the most important thing to the knicks organization right now?

from listening to walsh, he has said numerous times he wants to be in the free agent market in 2010. so i'm guessing that although this pick is ok...i see them moving it to dump zach's deal.

and i really don't think d'alsh wants to deal with zach next season either.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-06-2008 2:29 PM]

i think people need to put their trust in Walsh to make the moves that's right for our franchise until he proves that he shouldn't be trusted... i'm fine w/whatever Walsh decides to do w/that pick.
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joec32033
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6/6/2008  6:25 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by joec32033:

TMS, all do respect, that was a tad harsh for some internet bickering, no?

joe, i give respect when i get respect, i think u of all people know this about me... BRIGGS taking a shot at my forums was stooping pretty low even for him... i give back as bad as i get... if someone's gonna be a prick to me i got no problems shooting right back at em... that's how i roll... i don't think i was outta line at all.

Point taken.
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islesfan
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6/7/2008  1:21 AM
Posted by djsunyc:


obviously, having the 6th pick is better than having the 16th but dropping down all those slots may not yield a player that much worse.

and there's no guarantee that the 6th pick will pan out better than the 16th.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
martin
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6/7/2008  2:08 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by djsunyc:


obviously, having the 6th pick is better than having the 16th but dropping down all those slots may not yield a player that much worse.

and there's no guarantee that the 6th pick will pan out better than the 16th.

no guarantee but statistically it does prove out.
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TrueBlue
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6/7/2008  2:24 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by djsunyc:


obviously, having the 6th pick is better than having the 16th but dropping down all those slots may not yield a player that much worse.

and there's no guarantee that the 6th pick will pan out better than the 16th.

no guarantee but statistically it does prove out.


Not really I stopped at the 200 draft

If we keep going further back

1999 6. Wally Z. 16. Ron Artest
1998 6. Robert Traylor 16. Bryce Drew
1997 6. Ron Mercer 16. Brevin Knight
1996 6. Antoine Walker 16. Tony Delk
1995 6. Big Country 16. Alan Henderson
1994 6. Sharone Wright 16. Cliff Rozier
1993 6. Calbert Chaney 16. Rex Walters
1992 6. Googs 16. Randy Woods
1991 6. Doug Smith 16. Chris Gatling
1990 6. Felton Spencer 16. Terry Mills
1989 6. Stacey King 16. Dana Barros
1988 6. Hersey Hawkins 16. Derrick Cheivous
1987 6. Kenny Smith 16. Christian Welp
1986 6. William Bedford 16. Mo Martin
1985 6. Joe Klein 16. Bill Wennington
1984 6. Mel Turpin 16. John Stockton
1983 6. Russell Cross 16. Jon Sundvold
1982 6. Trent Tucker 16. Terry Teagle
1981 6. Orlando Woolridge 16. Darnell Valentine
1980 6. Mike Okoren 16. Hawkeye Whitney


I just don't see the clear cut edge through statistical history.


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eViL
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6/7/2008  2:35 AM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by djsunyc:


obviously, having the 6th pick is better than having the 16th but dropping down all those slots may not yield a player that much worse.

and there's no guarantee that the 6th pick will pan out better than the 16th.

no guarantee but statistically it does prove out.


Not really I stopped at the 200 draft

If we keep going further back

1999 6. Wally Z. 16. Ron Artest
1998 6. Robert Traylor 16. Bryce Drew
1997 6. Ron Mercer 16. Brevin Knight
1996 6. Antoine Walker 16. Tony Delk
1995 6. Big Country 16. Alan Henderson
1994 6. Sharone Wright 16. Cliff Rozier
1993 6. Calbert Chaney 16. Rex Walters
1992 6. Googs 16. Randy Woods
1991 6. Doug Smith 16. Chris Gatling
1990 6. Felton Spencer 16. Terry Mills
1989 6. Stacey King 16. Dana Barros
1988 6. Hersey Hawkins 16. Derrick Cheivous
1987 6. Kenny Smith 16. Christian Welp
1986 6. William Bedford 16. Mo Martin
1985 6. Joe Klein 16. Bill Wennington
1984 6. Mel Turpin 16. John Stockton
1983 6. Russell Cross 16. Jon Sundvold
1982 6. Trent Tucker 16. Terry Teagle
1981 6. Orlando Woolridge 16. Darnell Valentine
1980 6. Mike Okoren 16. Hawkeye Whitney


I just don't see the clear cut edge through statistical history.

That's not the way it works. You can't just compare 6 to 16. When we give up 6 for 16, we're not only passing on 6, we're also passing on 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. You know this. I expect your revised list tomorrow morning. Thanks for volunteering.
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islesfan
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6/7/2008  3:03 AM
Why are people worried about picks after 6? 6 is obviously the magic pick. Don't tell us about picks 7,8,9,10,11,12... The Knicks have one pick, the 6th. That's the pick that some people are so adamant in protecting, as if it were impossible to get a good player later on in the draft.

The funny thing is if you swapped the players on the list and said that the players picked 6th were instead taken with the 16th pick, and vice versa, nobody would have even thought twice about it.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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6/7/2008  3:12 AM
Posted by eViL:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by djsunyc:


obviously, having the 6th pick is better than having the 16th but dropping down all those slots may not yield a player that much worse.

and there's no guarantee that the 6th pick will pan out better than the 16th.

no guarantee but statistically it does prove out.


Not really I stopped at the 200 draft

If we keep going further back

1999 6. Wally Z. 16. Ron Artest
1998 6. Robert Traylor 16. Bryce Drew
1997 6. Ron Mercer 16. Brevin Knight
1996 6. Antoine Walker 16. Tony Delk
1995 6. Big Country 16. Alan Henderson
1994 6. Sharone Wright 16. Cliff Rozier
1993 6. Calbert Chaney 16. Rex Walters
1992 6. Googs 16. Randy Woods
1991 6. Doug Smith 16. Chris Gatling
1990 6. Felton Spencer 16. Terry Mills
1989 6. Stacey King 16. Dana Barros
1988 6. Hersey Hawkins 16. Derrick Cheivous
1987 6. Kenny Smith 16. Christian Welp
1986 6. William Bedford 16. Mo Martin
1985 6. Joe Klein 16. Bill Wennington
1984 6. Mel Turpin 16. John Stockton
1983 6. Russell Cross 16. Jon Sundvold
1982 6. Trent Tucker 16. Terry Teagle
1981 6. Orlando Woolridge 16. Darnell Valentine
1980 6. Mike Okoren 16. Hawkeye Whitney


I just don't see the clear cut edge through statistical history.

That's not the way it works. You can't just compare 6 to 16. When we give up 6 for 16, we're not only passing on 6, we're also passing on 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. You know this. I expect your revised list tomorrow morning. Thanks for volunteering.


I know this. I did this comparison because Briggs compared the 2006 draft of pick 6 to pick 16 and did a Roy vs Carney comparison. Just like I showed earlier what picks came after 16 which were great players. It's not so much on who's passed up vs if there is still good talent on the board at 16. The closer you keep moving to 16 then the greater the chance the talent pool levels off.

Here's a revision for you though

2007 6.Bucks Yi vs 16.Wiz Nick Young>>>>>players picked between 6-16(Corey Brewer, Thaddeus Young, Julian Wright, Al Thorton,Rodney Stuckey) ...players picked after...(Sean Williams, Belinelli, Wilson Chandler, Carl Landry, Ramon Sessions)
2006 6.Roy vs 16. Carney>>>>>players picked between 6-16(Randy Foye, Rudy Gay, Ronnie Brewer)...players picked after....(Rajon Rondo, Kyle Lowry, Josh Boone, Paul Milsap)
2005 6.Martell Webster vs 16. Joey Graham>>>>players picked between 6-16(CV, Bynum)...players picked after...(Danny Granger, David Lee, Linas Kleiza, Francisco Garcia, Hakim Warrick, Jarret Jack, Nate Robinson, Monta Ellis, Louis Williams)
2004 6.Josh Childress vs 16.Kirk Snyder>>>>>>players picked between 6-16(Luol Deng, Iggy, Biendrins, Al Jefferson)...players picked after...(Josh Smith, J.R. Smith, Jameer Nelson, Kevin Martin)
2003 6.Chris Kaman vs 16.Troy Bell>>>>>>players picked between 6-16(Kirk Hinrich, T.J. Ford, Pietrus, Luke Ridnour)...players picked after...(David West, Boris Diaw, Travis Outlaw, Barbosa, Josh Howard, Perkins, Mo Williams)
2002 6.Dujuan Wagner vs 16.Jiri Welsch>>>>>players picked between 6-16(Amare Stoudemire, Caron Butler, Wilcox, Jeffries, Fred Jones, Boston Nachbar)...players picked after...(Tayshaun Prince, Nenad Kristic, John Salmons, Carlos Boozer, Luis Scola)
2001 6.Shane Battier vs 16. Kirk Haston>>>>>players picked between 6-16(Joe Johnson, Troy Murphy, Richard Jefferson)...players picked after...(Zach Randolph, Tony Parker, Gerald Wallace, Samuel Dalembert, Jamal Tinsley, Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur)
2000 6.Demarr Johnson vs 16.Hedo Turkeyglue>>>>>players picked between 6-16(Jamal Crawford)...players picked after...(Desmond Mason, Jamal Magloire, Mo Peterson, Quentin Richardson, Deshawn Stevenson, Michael Redd)


The only yr I see a real clear cut separation in talent is the 2002 and probably the 2007 draft from pick 6-16 and I'm being generous here. Remember the argument is will there be talent available at 16 and as we can see statistically history has proven there will definitely be talent available. It just depends how smart would DW be to make the pick stick if he were to make such a trade.



[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-07-2008 02:35 AM]

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-07-2008 2:00 PM]
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TrueBlue
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6/7/2008  3:14 AM
Posted by islesfan:

Why are people worried about picks after 6? 6 is obviously the magic pick. Don't tell us about picks 7,8,9,10,11,12... The Knicks have one pick, the 6th. That's the pick that some people are so adamant in protecting, as if it were impossible to get a good player later on in the draft.

The funny thing is if you swapped the players on the list and said that the players picked 6th were instead taken with the 16th pick, and vice versa, nobody would have even thought twice about it.

ROTFLOL!
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islesfan
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6/7/2008  3:28 AM
Posted by eViL:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by djsunyc:


obviously, having the 6th pick is better than having the 16th but dropping down all those slots may not yield a player that much worse.

and there's no guarantee that the 6th pick will pan out better than the 16th.

no guarantee but statistically it does prove out.


Not really I stopped at the 200 draft

If we keep going further back

1999 6. Wally Z. 16. Ron Artest
1998 6. Robert Traylor 16. Bryce Drew
1997 6. Ron Mercer 16. Brevin Knight
1996 6. Antoine Walker 16. Tony Delk
1995 6. Big Country 16. Alan Henderson
1994 6. Sharone Wright 16. Cliff Rozier
1993 6. Calbert Chaney 16. Rex Walters
1992 6. Googs 16. Randy Woods
1991 6. Doug Smith 16. Chris Gatling
1990 6. Felton Spencer 16. Terry Mills
1989 6. Stacey King 16. Dana Barros
1988 6. Hersey Hawkins 16. Derrick Cheivous
1987 6. Kenny Smith 16. Christian Welp
1986 6. William Bedford 16. Mo Martin
1985 6. Joe Klein 16. Bill Wennington
1984 6. Mel Turpin 16. John Stockton
1983 6. Russell Cross 16. Jon Sundvold
1982 6. Trent Tucker 16. Terry Teagle
1981 6. Orlando Woolridge 16. Darnell Valentine
1980 6. Mike Okoren 16. Hawkeye Whitney


I just don't see the clear cut edge through statistical history.

That's not the way it works. You can't just compare 6 to 16. When we give up 6 for 16, we're not only passing on 6, we're also passing on 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. You know this. I expect your revised list tomorrow morning. Thanks for volunteering.

Why stop at 15?

Oh yeah, that's because it would be admitting that you can get a good player at 16 too. A player that could have gone at 6 based on how they turn out.

Isn't that how it works?

[Edited by - islesfan on 07-06-2008 03:35 AM]
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
tkf
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6/7/2008  10:31 AM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by djsunyc:


obviously, having the 6th pick is better than having the 16th but dropping down all those slots may not yield a player that much worse.

and there's no guarantee that the 6th pick will pan out better than the 16th.

no guarantee but statistically it does prove out.


Not really I stopped at the 200 draft

If we keep going further back

1999 6. Wally Z. 16. Ron Artest
1998 6. Robert Traylor 16. Bryce Drew
1997 6. Ron Mercer 16. Brevin Knight
1996 6. Antoine Walker 16. Tony Delk
1995 6. Big Country 16. Alan Henderson
1994 6. Sharone Wright 16. Cliff Rozier
1993 6. Calbert Chaney 16. Rex Walters
1992 6. Googs 16. Randy Woods
1991 6. Doug Smith 16. Chris Gatling
1990 6. Felton Spencer 16. Terry Mills
1989 6. Stacey King 16. Dana Barros
1988 6. Hersey Hawkins 16. Derrick Cheivous
1987 6. Kenny Smith 16. Christian Welp
1986 6. William Bedford 16. Mo Martin
1985 6. Joe Klein 16. Bill Wennington
1984 6. Mel Turpin 16. John Stockton
1983 6. Russell Cross 16. Jon Sundvold
1982 6. Trent Tucker 16. Terry Teagle
1981 6. Orlando Woolridge 16. Darnell Valentine
1980 6. Mike Okoren 16. Hawkeye Whitney


I just don't see the clear cut edge through statistical history.

Robert Traylor turned into Dirk Nowitzki........ I will take that....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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6/7/2008  10:35 AM
Posted by islesfan:

Why are people worried about picks after 6? 6 is obviously the magic pick. Don't tell us about picks 7,8,9,10,11,12... The Knicks have one pick, the 6th. That's the pick that some people are so adamant in protecting, as if it were impossible to get a good player later on in the draft.

The funny thing is if you swapped the players on the list and said that the players picked 6th were instead taken with the 16th pick, and vice versa, nobody would have even thought twice about it.

Isles, come on with the ridiculous comments.... with pick 6, we can pick any player that we can get with pick 7-12, we have control to take that player we feel will make us better, at 16, your choices of quality players are limited.... you know that... True Blue only posted picks 6 and 16, but picks 7-15 yieled some good players, even stars and with pick 6, you give yourself a shot to grab any one of those players!! If you miss, then that is on you, but at least you control that..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Bonn1997
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6/7/2008  11:05 AM
I thought Zach was closer to 30-20
BRIGGS
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6/7/2008  11:09 AM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:

[quote]Posted by djsunyc:


obviously, having the 6th pick is better than having the 16th but dropping down all those slots may not yield a player that much worse.

and there's no guarantee that the 6th pick will pan out better than the 16th.

no guarantee but statistically it does prove out.


Not really I stopped at the 200 draft

If we keep going further back

1999 6. Wally Z. 16. Ron Artest
1998 6. Robert Traylor 16. Bryce Drew
1997 6. Ron Mercer 16. Brevin Knight
1996 6. Antoine Walker 16. Tony Delk
1995 6. Big Country 16. Alan Henderson
1994 6. Sharone Wright 16. Cliff Rozier
1993 6. Calbert Chaney 16. Rex Walters
1992 6. Googs 16. Randy Woods
1991 6. Doug Smith 16. Chris Gatling
1990 6. Felton Spencer 16. Terry Mills
1989 6. Stacey King 16. Dana Barros
1988 6. Hersey Hawkins 16. Derrick Cheivous
1987 6. Kenny Smith 16. Christian Welp
1986 6. William Bedford 16. Mo Martin
1985 6. Joe Klein 16. Bill Wennington
1984 6. Mel Turpin 16. John Stockton
1983 6. Russell Cross 16. Jon Sundvold
1982 6. Trent Tucker 16. Terry Teagle
1981 6. Orlando Woolridge 16. Darnell Valentine
1980 6. Mike Okoren 16. Hawkeye Whitney


I just don't see the clear cut edge through statistical history.



No one would use this formula to determine the talent disparity between 6-16--you would have to not only throw in everyone drafted 6-15 but you would also have to cancel out the years that hs players were drafted because they are not eligible anymore--so their history is out the door. There are no more Monta ellis in round 2--there are no kobe bryants at 16--that is done.
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Where in the history of the NBA has a 20 year old 20-10 C traded with a HIGH lottery pick for
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