Solace,
Don't worry about insulting me, you think I'm an extremist, and I think you're an extremist too, so we do agree on something.
The difference I see in a discussion with you on race, is that I have a vast personal and academic body of knowledge to pull from when I make my assertions, and its obvious you do not. In our first serious conversation about race, I talked you down from the 'extremist' notion that you do not see race when you interact with people. So I guess we can agree that we are miles apart. Nevertheless, I enjoy having these discussions, because without them, we'd get nowhere, and i think the George Bush notion of not talking to people you disagree with is foolish and counterproductive.
I said the Sean Bell shooting was racist and that it NEVER happens to white people. You said:
I find these sorts of blanket statements quite offensive. I am quite confident that with any decent amount of research your blanket statement would clearly prove to be incorrect. I'm sorry that you perceive things this way and I definitely feel sorry that you have to carry that sort of burden around.
Ok, let me be absolutely clear. I dont mean never, as in the police have never killed a white person in America before. White people don't get shot in New York city in 50 shot barrages. White people dont get shot in their building stairwells in 41 shot barrages, because they thought they were reaching for a gun. Show me a white person in New York City, who was unarmed, not committing a crime, who was shot with, lets say half, 20 bullets, on foot in a car, wherever, in New York city. Prove me wrong, dont say I'm wrong, prove it.
More importantly than that, which you will not find, I'd also like to throw this out there, I have asked it a million times and no one seems to have the courage to answer it, but it gets to the very core of what we are talking about here.
How does a white person come to know how prevalent racism or discrimination is or isn't in society? How would you know it? If a gay person was on the board talking about their experiences how would I judge whether they were accurate or not, if I'm not gay, and I'm not studying the research on gays and discrimination? How would I have the first clue? You and many other white people on this board have some very strong views about racism, its existence, how overblown it is, and yet I can't for the life of me, figure out how you all would have any accurate answers about this. Who will be the brave soul to tackle this question after I have asked it yet another time?
Izybx,
Police are aggresive in high crime areas.
When you say police are aggressive in high crime areas what do you mean? What is aggressive policing?
I dont think that the amount of police and the level of discretion they are told to have is determined by the race of the locals.
No, not what they are told, but NYPD, who for years have been overwhelmingly white, in a majority minority city, bring their prejudices, and ignorance to the table. They are policing neighborhoods and people whom they have had no or little social contact with, and the culture of policing, in NYC has developed against this backdrop. YOu dont have to be told what level of discretion to have, if you dont believe the people you are policing are the same as you, if the people and communities you police are poor and uneducated, and hostile to police, individual officers make that decision for themselves. For many, every young man is perp, particularly in a poor black or latino community. Remember also, that the community's hostility comes from some place real. As recently as the 90's it was
established that the NYPD was racial profiling, and stop and frisks were being used ina a discriminatory manner. I didn't need a report to tell me that, I lived through it. The police in Harlem, where I'm from, have left a legacy and a relationship that is broken, not irreparable, but seriously damaged and thats something that new police have to deal with and be conscious of. When I went to college in Virginia i was amazed at how by the book their police were. No disrespect, no cursing, no overt violation of police policy, just straight by the book. I was 17 in 92 when I went to college, and my experience with Va police was DRAMATICALLY different.
I happen to be a cop in the south bronx. Ive been accused many times of being racist. Let me ask you Killa, am I a racist if someone gets shot on 138st and Willis avenue and the shooter is described as a male black wearing a black sweatshirt, a black hat, blue jeans and black sneakers so I search people who fit their description in the general area? Should I let them pass for fear of appearing to be racially insensitive? Well the above happened a couple weeks ago and Im willing to bet that there are about 10 young black men who wonder why they were stopped for "no reason".
You will always get accused of being racist, it comes with the territory. My mom works for the NY state division of human rights, she investigates claims of discrimination for a living in hiousing and employment. I've heard a million stories from her, you will always get people who are either crazy, or who want to file suits for personal reasons, or when they weren't in fact being discriminated against, or at least it cannot be proven. BUt yeah she gets alot of people with bogus claims, I'm old, I'm a woman, I'm jamaican, I'm albanina, whatever and there is no legit discrimination case. And some have legitimate concerns that aren't covered by the law. Of course many of the claims are verified as well, but I'm clear that there is a segment who dont want to take responsibility for their actions.
If you have a description of a black male wearing all black, depending on the day and weather, you could literally be talking about hundreds of people. I dont think there is anything wrong with doing your job and looking for people who fit that description. I do think you have somewhat of a vague description, no height, no build, no complexion (black people come in alot of shades)? But that sounds like sound police work if you are stopping people respectfully as you do your duty. And I'll even take it a step further, because all of these young kids dress alike, you could have a description of white t-shirt, baggy pants, yankess hat, black or latino male, and arrest a whole section of the bronx!! But when people say racism it isn't just about being stopped, although thats a part of it, alot of it is about respect after the stop is made, I can go on and on about how the first words of police to me and friends was "get the **** outta here" or "what the **** are you doing?" as we are doing absolutely nothing. I can't count the times this type of thing has happened. There have also been times, when I have encountered some cool cops, who were street savvy and didn't approach me like I was perp and treated me with dignity and respect, but that has not been the norm. I also lived through the Giuliani era where street crimes unit (who killed Amadou Diallo) were basically cowboys let loose on the street; they would just frisk you come up to you and frisk you, do you know how many times I was frisked during those Giuliani years? One time, I was dating a female cop and we were pulled over by an unmarked car for Driving a Benz while Black, and of course a huge argument ensued as she immediately identified herself as an officer. This was the street crimes unit again. And I can go on and on.
I know you get falsely accused of being racist as a cop. But that doesn't make NYPD racism any less real, and when I see people agreeing with you, who haven't had any of the experiences I have, it only further insulates them from a reality they have never known. I know there are 2 sides, but they dont, and in spite of me writing this, they will either dismiss it, maybe think I'm lying or think I've had really bad luck. But this isn't just my story, this is the story of all of my friends, and generations of young black men in the city. Real police work by honest cops wouldn't give us so many stories to tell.
[Edited by - killa4luv on 04-28-2008 10:50 AM][Edited by - killa4luv on 04-28-2008 11:56 AM]
